Morals

I think I may have complicating things a bit when posting this thread...sorry for being a VF newb

anyhow, Myke, that article in Arcadia that talks about Morals and Abare, I actually have a copy of that issue but I can't read it because it's all in Japanese. I'm wondering how it can get transferred...

 

Nah...

I didn't say I prefered low risk / low reward. I said using a fast attack to beat a delayed attack would be the smart thing to do. A tradeof between risk and reward would be using a heavylauncher against an anticipated throw - using it against a delayed attack simple put it isn't imo.

When the person delays his attack he's basicly throwing away his frameadvantage - so it gets closer to an even situation. What will win in that case? The fastest attack of course.

The entire point of a delayed launcher is to for example catch someone who evades. If you are -6, as in Shangs example, and you do after you'll win against a standard 18frame launcher like the Yoho if it's delayed right (since your punch is 12frames)? In fact, it's even not such a big deal if it gets blocked.

Now, nobody delays their yoho for a long period of time as they want to catch you in the evade - most would probably buffer an extra CD input or something similar - that is, not waisting an entire 6 frames prior to their launcher so... your own 18 frame launcher would infact loose to their delayed 18 frame launcher if you're -6. Don't you agree? Now todays math question is how many frames would an opponent have to delay his throw in order for something like to MC it. The followup question would be if it's even correct to label that situation as "reverse nitaku" if he did.

/KiwE (Everyone can play how they want though ofc).

 

err.. no, it's called you don't know what you are doing.. here's a better description:

 

Re: Nah...

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

When the person delays his attack he's basicly throwing away his frameadvantage - so it gets closer to an even situation. What will win in that case? The fastest attack of course.

/KiwE (Everyone can play how they want though ofc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. If you try to delay your attack to catch someone's evade, not only you will lose your adv you had but also you will put yourself in a disadvantage situation. That's how long you will generally have to wait to hit someone out of a failed evade.

Therefore, if I anticiapte that someone will use a delay attack after blocking my DE, I can go for anything as long as I don't wait and waste any more frames. SPOD, Yoho, or Knee will get me a nice yellow Major counter.

You don't necessarcy have to use a fast attack to interrupt a delayed attack.

-maddySTYLE-

 

Re: Nah...

You're -3 after doing DE. Would you do the same after a SDE (which is -6 which I thought it was clear was what was being discussed)? Would you use alot at -6 Maddy and believe to get MC's? I highly doubt it. And that's,after all, a 14 frame attack (which would mean a much higher probability of MC then a 17frame one).

There's a big difference between being -3 and -6 in defensive tactics and hence even in the case of RN. The (so called) critisism was majorly towards special moves Ice-9 included that have MC stats that are important (like wolfs / jackys ) in the list which he later went on to defend as not just against throws but against delayed attacks aswell as RN wasn't "just against throws.

Even if you do SpoD, Yoho or a Knee with Aki it's no big deal if you do get a MC or just a normalhit anyways (you still get a float or a heap of dmg) against both throws and a delayed attack.

Doing a with Jacky (or Wolf) which only floats on MC and is 17 frames from a -6 is not only questionable, it's pretty stupid as you can be in very advantaged situation (+5 for Jacky) and still not float a throwattempt if it happens come... You even get in a -1 diss on mC / Normalhit. Does it make much sense then to use a 17frame attack with MC stats against delayed attacks? Probably not unless you really believe in it.

[ QUOTE ]
If you try to delay your attack to catch someone's evade, not only you will lose your adv you had but also you will put yourself in a disadvantage situation. That's how long you will generally have to wait to hit someone out of a failed evade.

[/ QUOTE ]

So a 6 frame delay isn't enough to catch someone in a failed evade? I thought the common way of doing it was with an extra CD or motion input which would seem natural as it could easily be a commandinput to use everytime you anticipate the evade. I thought a failed evade was 25frames and since Yoho is 18... , you must have just-frame timing on all your delayed yoho's then if a 6 frame delay isn't enough to catch them in the failed evade.


/KiwE

 

Re: Nah...

You block my SDE, and you want to delay yoho.

Its not a matter of how many frames you delay, its which happens first - your attack or my evade. if my evade happens first (you threw away your advantage for a disadvantage), it will be a failed evade, if your attack happens first (you retained your advantage) it will be a successful evade. Of course, putting yourself at -1 would be optimal, but trying to get exact frame every time is unneccesarily hard. As long as the yoho hits during the 25 frame failed evade, the delay is successful. To delay attack, you have a pretty big margain, around 6-8 frames in which to input the attack.

Doing a punch against a delay attack is rather silly, as it carries the same risk as any other attack if they attack, and if they delay an attack, you will have the advantage, so you may as well beat out their slow attack with one of your own. They have very little reason to delay a fast attack like P, so it is safe to say your knee class attack will beat any option they may choose.

 

Re: Nah...

I think this where theory virtua fighter and reality virtua fighter collides. If the attacker is trying to hit the defender out of an evade, he will have to attack AFTER the defender recovers and executes the evade. So in theory… if the defender simply buffers an attack right out of recover he would technically be attacking from advantage, as Maddy put it.
But in reality this just doesn’t work as a strategy. If you are at the typical –6, running around doing yohoo/knee or in ass-9’s case Wolf’s shrm to beat an attack is just insane. While you are waging on beating out a delay you are open to counter hit against every single attack from the attacker if he does none delay. If you p or d+p at –6 at least you have a chance (maybe) to beat knee class none delayed and you’ll beat all delay attacks. The difference would like being counter hit by wolf’s screwhook / toe kick vs being counter hit by shrm. This all goes back to the fact reverse nitaku is 95% used to stuff throws in a none throw counterable situation, maybe ass has been playing too much tekken or something..

This is like elementary shit, and ass-9 is just arguing for the argument’s sake.

Alan: it's mentality like this, that makes you a lesser player.

 

Re: Nah...

Delay P will beat evade and big (15~17 frame) reverse nitaku if timed right. So there is a benefit to using P class attacks for reverse nitaku.

 

Re: Nah...

 

Re: Nah...

[ QUOTE ]
Dandy_J said:

Delay P will beat evade and big (15~17 frame) reverse nitaku if timed right. So there is a benefit to using P class attacks for reverse nitaku.

[/ QUOTE ]

tru, but the timing is strict. I'd rather just P, cuz you get an advantage if they evade it, or if it MC's. But if you're good enough to delay it perfectly, it'd make sense, but you're still likely to eat a RN SDE or something.

 

Ok, I'll try to make my point.

[ QUOTE ]
tru, but the timing is strict. I'd rather just P, cuz you get an advantage if they evade it, or if it MC's. But if you're good enough to delay it perfectly, it'd make sense, but you're still likely to eat a RN SDE or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

So now you're saying that you'd do a normal when you have +6? What common sense is that??? This is getting way out in theorypr0nland man. And you're the one speaking in behalf of taking risks? Another fun fact is that if the other person tries to you when you go on doing at +6 he'll actually win as you're not doing something mid...

Edit:

[ QUOTE ]
You block my SDE, and you want to delay yoho.

Its not a matter of how many frames you delay, its which happens first - your attack or my evade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Btw regarding this, I'm not the one saying that if you anticipate a delayed attack you should do a heavylauncher (note; it's very valid against an anticipated throw though) but a simple or something fast. Definatly not something that's harshly dependent on you getting a MC hit (as then, for example, your attack won't be worth jack against a throwattempt which is a very valid option for your opponent when you're -6).

I'll illustrate, or try, why the speed actually matters of what you use to counter the anticipated delayattack once more:

Situation 1: Opponent does (gets -6) > evade.
Situation 2: Opponent does (gets -6) > Yoho (18frame launcher).

I'm playing Brad here and I'll use a delayed attack Kao Loy ( 17 frame launcher). I do believe you can delay frames very constantly with the use of commandinput btw (CD, dashing etc) - 1 frame delays are a pretty big part of some combos - and I'll do my Launcher like:

If I put the two above two situations in the trainingmode and at 50% each I can win, very constantly, against them both with my commandinput like this.

However; if I exchange my Situation 2 so:
Situation 2: Opponent does (gets -6) > I can not win in both instances and will get MC'd by the punch once it comes.

Furthermore; If the opponent just continues gaurding and I do a P - it's no big deal but I'm fucked with something really big. And if he evades, like you yourself pointed out, it's no big deal either.

Once again; there's absolutely nothing wrong with you doing a launcher with a good stat on normalhit when you anticipate a throw attempt, using something like
Jackys from a diss and expecting a float when it doesn't even launch against a throw attempt at +5 however seems very problematic imo. And finally, to beat out an anticipated delayed attack a fast move is probably your best option, a move which requires MC stats to be effective definatly not your best.

/KiwE

 

Re: Nah...

since when am i speaking out for risks? p at -6 carries about the SAME risk as yoho. And P at +6 is 90% guranteed to give you an advantage afterwards.

 

Well TT

[ QUOTE ]
p at -6 carries about the SAME risk as yoho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not against a delayed yoho it doesn't and delayed attacks are what's being discussed.

[ QUOTE ]
And P at +6 is 90% guranteed to give you an advantage afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but you can't go about doing 's when you have +6 all the time. It's just common sense as you want to do freakin damage! If you're so afraid of the evade do a circular or fully circular with that big advantage for crying out loud. I've never seen someone win an entire match with just using singel punches - have you?

/KiwE

 

Re: Nah...

[ QUOTE ]
Shang said:

If you p or d+p at –6 at least you have a chance (maybe) to beat knee class none delayed and you’ll beat all delay attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, good posts by everyone in this thread. It's a pretty useful topic and it also gives everyone a chance to think about it.

As for a respond to what Shang posted, in a -6 situation, low P or high P will get hammered by a fastest timed knee.

The reason why you should go for a big move for RN is this. When they try to throw you will get a combo off of it. When they try to use a delayed attack to catch your EDTEG, you will get a MC.

Jacky and Wolf's 6K wouldn't get you a combo when you hit out of someone's throw. I'd use something else such as Jacky's P+K or Wolf's 46P+K. The risk involved with -6 is the virutally same with a punch and big moves. If you think it's too risky and be afraid of getting MCed by their big attacks, ARE is the way to go.



The key is switching around between your options. Let your opponent see that you are getting out of a disadvantaged situation by doing EDTEG frequently so give them a reason to try a delayed attack. Then it's time to go for a juice with your big RN.


Kiwie: I use SDE and another SDE to beat someone's delayed attack, and it always works as long as they delay their move for the right amount of time and I do not waste frames between my SDEs.


Delayed punches can be good, but delaying your attack involves a risk. Your delayed attack can lose to your opponents any immidiate attack including a simple low P. So I think if you are to use a delayed attack, you should go for a big one as even delayed punches still lose to most of fastest RN if the move used is not too horribly slow.

 

Re: Ok, I'll try to make my point.

err

if I say something is a good option, its silly to reply telling me that its not good to do it 100% of the time. You could say that about any option in VF.

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:
Situation 1: Opponent does (gets -6) > evade.
Situation 2: Opponent does (gets -6) > Yoho (18frame launcher).

I'm playing Brad here and I'll use a delayed attack Kao Loy ( 17 frame launcher). I do believe you can delay frames very constantly with the use of commandinput btw (CD, dashing etc) - 1 frame delays are a pretty big part of some combos - and I'll do my Launcher like:

If I put the two above two situations in the trainingmode and at 50% each I can win, very constantly, against them both with my commandinput like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, 1 frame delays are easy to do, but this will not work. A 1 frame delay at +6 will not draw a failed evade. You need at least a 7 frame delay. The already has a dash, and already has a 1 frame delay. The only way you can successfully delay the attack is if you input the late, which requires precice timing.

 

Re: Well TT

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:


Yes but you can't go about doing 's when you have +6 all the time. It's just common sense as you want to do freakin damage! If you're so afraid of the evade do a circular or fully circular with that big advantage for crying out loud. I've never seen someone win an entire match with just using singel punches - have you?

/KiwE

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing a P after +6 is a perfectly valid option, IMO. There's nothing wrong with it and I can see many points in doing that. Of course, you don't want to do high Ps everytime you have +6, but nobody really does.

 

Re: Well TT

Yeah I guess since I seem to be alone in my opinions but I still think many things are weird / some points that people tend to stick to but then again apparently mine are aswell. This will be my last post then I guess.

First of all:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, 1 frame delays are easy to do, but this will not work. A 1 frame delay at +6 will not draw a failed evade. You need at least a 7 frame delay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone show a test or a faq to really confirm this as I find it intresting. Like.... need atleast 7 frame delay to catch someone in a failed evade.... Failed evade is afterall 25 frames and a Yoho is 18. Can someone even explain to me how it's possible to punish a failed evade with Laus 21frame superknife (+) if the opponent evades>gaurds if I need "atleast 7 frames delay" against the evader?

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, 1 frame delays are easy to do, but this will not work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you even tried doing it Syiko? It's not that hard actually as you try to make it to be. Yes it's not a exakt 1 frame delay but it's not hard to do and that's the main point! I don't have to do a 17frame thing here, it could be a situation where I simply do a standing launcher like akis or Brads + which is even faster and would make the situation even easier on my behalf - but guess what - those options will still loose to a aswell.

[ QUOTE ]
Doing a P after +6 is a perfectly valid option, IMO. There's nothing wrong with it and I can see many points in doing that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. Just cause a standing P arguable has the best stats out of any move in the game doesn't mean you can abuse them in any way or form (is there basicly any situation where one can argue they aren't good?). That's why people p>throw when they get mC +5 hits instead of doing P>P. At +6 the standard way should be to continue your offence (A move with good MC stats, a fast and safe knockdown tool, something circular, a throw, a big launcher if I feel risky), if you go on doing P's at +6 you might aswell neglect the game of frames all togheter and with it your chance of doing a launcher from anything but a whiffed animation from your opponent (as from a backspace).

I know that if I were to try and teach someone the game of VF I'd try to teach that it's based around mids and throws (at the core) and taking advantage of your frames the best way possible and would hold a standing P at +6 as an obscure thing not to do often. You hit with it - then what? Another guessing game.
But then again I guess it boiles down to what "valid options" are and if not exactly everything in the game is one if you look at it in the right light.

Finally; I don't think (gaurded)>delayed> is a very strong flowchart (another elbow at -6) as compared to other Aki options. It's decent do to it's speed but not a good RN tool all in all compared to his other options. You yourself Maddy argue for that Jackys and Wolfs are not good RN tools delayed cause they won't float against a throwattempt. Well this will not crumble either against a fastest throw against you. And if you use it delayed and the opponent evades and you catch them in the evade with a ; you have a poor combo on your hand (if you react fast) as opposed to another delaytool as the yoho or knee. Rather it's a delaytool while you're standing and gaurding buffering it maybe. A what the fuck... I'll shut up then.

Over and out, sorry if I sound offensive/aggressive when discussing these things.

/KiwE

 

Re: Well TT

I thought Maddy was talking about SDE followed by another SDE at the fastest timing to beat THEIR delayed attack not delaying the second SDE to beat an evade?

I don't see why anyone would want to evade after guarding SDE or am I misinterpreting something here?

 

Re: Well TT

1) it needs a 7 frame delay at -6. The evade must begin before the striking attack for the delay to be successful. Lau's superknife will be fine, you are adding your frames wrong.

2) What isn't as hard as I say it is? Doing exact frame delays arent hard? Try this excersize: Akira vs Akira, CPU does SDE followed by evade, or 46P. Delay a shrm that will beat both options. It will need to be delayed exactly 7 frames, and if you can do that consistently, then you have incredibly precise timing.

3) The point of a standing P is to shift the game in your favor. Purely framewise + damagewise, there are better options, but if your P hits, your opponent will not be able to evaluate the situation, think "okay i am now at -6, what are my options", but you will because you know the P is coming out. You can still follow your plan, but more than likely your opponent will only have gut reflex to rely on. Nobody but you has said anything about spamming P, or abusing P at +6, it is a tool to used like any other.

finally, SDE > delay > SDE IS a bad flowchart. But maddy explicitly said he does not waste frames between SDE's. The second elbow will beat some slower-than-knee attacks (including sweeps, which is a good option at +6), as well as getting a knockdown against a throw attempt.

edit: hmm rereading this post makes me look very pissed off. Don't think I have hard feelings towards anyone here, imagine a giant happy face in place of my avatar.

 

Re: Nah...

[ QUOTE ]
maddy said:


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we both understand the technicality of the situation. The difference is how we approach it on paper. You take the premise that the opponent will definitely use a delayed big attack to crash your evade. If this is the case then yah, using a big attack yourself is the best choice. However, I look as there is a possibility that the opponent will not delay his attack, or use a circular attack or fuzzy guard into a delay throw. From this perspective attacking again with a big attack ‘could’ be a round-ending decision. I choose a fast attack to minimize the risk of being MCed by the biggest attack the opponent has while taking away the dodging and entering throw escape guessing game. It’s a different way to look at the same situation. That being said, I would still have to say from a strategic perspective, it’s not a good idea to attack big on negative frames with the intent to beat out attacks. The negative frames really work against you on the damage factor. And there are just too many other options your opponent can do to fold you. It’s like tossing all your eggs in a basket and hoping he will do just that so you can beat it while risking everything else. I understand one could argue that if you know for a fact he will delay this you should go for it, but those aren’t the matches we worry about are they? If you can read your opponent 100% or even 75%, you already got the game bagged. Anyways…

oh yah you are right -6 d+p would get crashed by knee kick, that’s why I put a (maybe) in there..

=)