Move priority

Give me a break matt. It’s obvious I'm not understanding you. You toss around your "hit boxes" "priority" "attack box" and expect people to know exactly what the heck you are referring to. Even now I’m clueless as to what in the creed's world "priority" means. Can you even explain it yourself? Do me a favor and stop considering this to be an argument and think about what people are saying instead of “you aren’t understanding me, stop talking out of your ass†maybe you’d make some sense of it. Check your ego at the door.
You give the impression as if priority is a value assign by game designers. Something like 1 to 100: 1 this move has no priority and 100 this moves > all. Hopefully this isn’t what you believe because you would be dearly mistaking if you are. There’s some miscommunication here. If there were some definitions as to what is this or that, you just might make sense minus your ego. This is apparently not the case since this thread began with someone asking what is priority in the first place.

I’ll try to give a shot of what I think is priority…feel free to nicely correct me without the “my words are law" attitude. And so and so from #capcom means shit to me, unless you can back it up.

For each attack there are 3 phases your character goes through: execution, detection, and recovery. The durations of these phases are calculated by measurement of frames.
Execution:
The instance you make your final input of an attack (button press) you go into execution. In this phase your character starts to stick his leg/arm out, building up his momentum or whatever. While in execution the computer doesn’t calculate any hit detection and the character losses the ability to block. If you are hit during execution, you opponent’s attack will receive a large modified damage bonus generally.
Detection:
After you pass all your frames in execution, you enter the detection phase. Character is considered finished “preparing†and actually attacking. In detection some parts of your character’s body are flagged as “hit detection zone†(Creed’s hit box). This zone represents the area of your character’s body that could cause damage to your opponent. For example, if you are punching, your fist could be a detection zone. If you are kicking your foot could be a detection zone. There could be multi detection zones per attack in cases where the character is kicking and punching at the same time, or punching with two fists, punching and headbutting so on… Also for each frames in the detection phase the detection zones could change, you could be punching up or kicking down or moving forward etc. Just like in execution, you cannot block which makes you vulnerable to attack. However depending on where and how large your detection zones are, you could trade hits or hit the opponent out of his attack all together.
Recovery:
In the recovery phase, the character has finished the attack and is retracting his arm/leg/head. The character has the same properties as in execution: can’t block no detection zones. once you run through the recovery frames, you’ll gain full control of your character.

In order to understand “creed’s boxes†One must understand what is a “character†to the computer... A character on screen is defined by a set of coordinates relative to the fighting environment. These coordinates make up a contiguous space that the computer marks as the character. To the players these coordinates are invisible; they however are represented by pretty polygons/bitmaps in resembling to a person (or not). In the normal position, the space that defines your character is completely vulnerable, meaning if any coordinates of your character space come in contact (equals to) with your opponent’s detection zone, it will register a hit on YOU! I think this vulnerability area is what creed calls “Attack zoneâ€Â. Performing an attack will modify this normal state in two ways. It will alter the space that character occupies by sticking the arm or legs out etc. It could also mark some parts of the character space invulnerable to attacks, this happens a lot in SF games. A good example of this is the pre-super Dragon Punch, which makes the character COMPLETELY invulnerable in detection phase. This is what he referred to as invincibility. Not all moves make your character space invulnerable like the DP thankfully.
To summarize, your character is define as a character space by the computer. The character space can neither vulnerable or not. I shall call these areas vulnerable zones (Attack zone) and invulnerable zones (invincibility) respectively. The total area of the character space will always be equal to the sum of all the vulnerable and invulnerable zones. Now Creed this is where I’m disagreeing with you. You seem to be saying the any hit detection zone is automatically part of the invulnerable zone, whereas I am saying these two are complete separate properties. I’m guess this is how you deduced the conclusion of “hit box†defines invincibility. The most obvious example is Dragon punching a roundhouse sweep where you know he has a detection zone because you’ve been hit on that frame before, but you can always hit him clean with a DP. However if you try to interrupt the sweep with your own roundhouse on the same frame, what happens? You’ll both get knock down. Why? Because the roundhouse’s detection zone (hit box) is not mark as part of the invulnerable zone, whereas the DP detection zone is and has always been part of the invulnerable zone. Detection zones and invulnerable zones are not the same thing.
Also you are saying as far as priority is concerned nothing matters but the detection zone “hit box†and the vulnerable zones (attack box), which is plainly wrong. You completely disregard the importance of execution and you do not seem to make distinctions between attack box and alternation of character space. To this I’m very surprise of since ½ of vf is execution/recovery. I will leave this piece as it because if you don’t know what I’m talking about then we have fundamental differences aside miscommunication.

What makes a move a priority is based on:

Execution phase: The lower the execution frames, the higher the priority. The faster you go through execution, the fast you get into detection where you get the hit box, means you can interrupt faster or counter attack.

Invulnerable/vulnerable zones: Bigger the invulnerable the better. Obviously if you are invulnerable all the time, you’d have unlimited priority since nothing can hit you. Invulnerable zones are big in SF games. In vf it’s less so. Think about what gives the Super Combos’ high priority…. it is the result of execution and invulnerability advantages. Capcom basically freezes the opponent so you go through execution while giving your character a large invulnerability zone, something close to zero execution frames. There is no attack in vf that renders your character space 100% invulnerable like the old DP or Super Combos. If there were, such would be immune to Major Counters, which is unheard of.

Detection zones: Big detection box equals to high priority. The bigger the zone is the higher chances you have to “connect†your hit. I would think hit levels is a variety of this.

Alternation of the character space: Some moves will change the space the character occupies, move that cause you to duck or airborn or back up. This could avoid/dodge the detection zone of the incoming attack. This is big in vf, and less so in SF. There’s just more room to alternate in 3d…

Detection phase: The more detection frames, the higher the priority. But this is not true after a certain point.

Recovery phase is completely irrelevant to priority but very important otherwise.

Sabaki and projectile type behave differently. Anyways that's for now.

 

Shang, that was long. I was proud.

If I sound egotistical to you, it's because you sound egotistical to me, acting like I'm on crack for detailing well known facts while you claim your imaginative opinions are reality. I hope I pissed you off because it sure made me irritated when I posted about how priority really does work in these games only to see Shang jump on and say "what are you smoking?!" . I got the help of #capcom because clearly you aren't going to believe anything I say, you made up your system and you're going to stick with it. But for you to say the word of #capcom doesn't mean shit is retarded. The people in capcom include several tournament winners like Alex Valle and John Choi. You'll also see the maintainers of shoryuken.com, the cannon brothers. These are people with a complete grasp of how the game works, and it looks bad when you write off their opinions as worthless. How would it look if a VF scrub came onto #vfhome and started arguing with you about how major counters work?

Some of our disagreement is probably failure to understand each other. When you say
Invulnerable/vulnerable zones: Bigger the invulnerable the better. Obviously if you are invulnerable all the time, you’d have unlimited priority since nothing can hit you. Invulnerable zones are big in SF games. In vf it’s less so.

we practically are saying the same thing. You make sense here.

But when you say
Think about what gives the Super Combos’ high priority…. it is the result of execution and invulnerability advantages. Capcom basically freezes the opponent so you go through execution while giving your character a large invulnerability zone, something close to zero execution frames.
... or
Detection phase: The more detection frames, the higher the priority. But this is not true after a certain point. ....

then you're wandering into imagination land again. The screen freeze is purely aesthetic, the same way everything slows down when you get hit by a fireball in the original SF2. When you complete the motion for a super combo and everything stops, BOTH characters are frozen during that time, the super combo isn't "0 execution frames" and you aren't doing anything while your opponent is sitting still. Super combos have plain old execution and recovery just like any other attack, the invincibility is simply something capcom programs into them by not giving them a vulnerable box at any point during the first few seconds of execution. As for the second bit you said about hit frames.. that sure isn't true in street fighter. In street fighter champion edition you can easily jab blanka out of a fierce blanka ball (charge b, f+P). You can't so easily jab M.Bison out of a psycho crusher. Both moves have long hit detection frames as they fly across the screen, and if you touch any part of Blanka or M.Bison you will get hit by their attack, so the difference isn't in the size of their hit boxes. The difference is in the vulnerability area, which for M. Bison are narrow and for Blanka are large.

Here's where we either misunderstand or disagree:

The total area of the character space will always be equal to the sum of all the vulnerable and invulnerable zones. Now Creed this is where I’m disagreeing with you. You seem to be saying the any hit detection zone is automatically part of the invulnerable zone, whereas I am saying these two are complete separate properties. I’m guess this is how you deduced the conclusion of “hit box†defines invincibility.

That isn't what I'm saying.
Let me draw it. Unfortunately I can't embed the picture into the post.

<a target="_blank" href=ftp://207.5.239.173/priority.jpg>ftp://207.5.239.173/priority.jpg</a>

Any part of your sprite that doesn't

A: have a PREDEFINED area that can HIT the enemy or
B: have a PREDEFINED area that can GET HIT by the enemy
= invincible.

Ryu has a hit box and that's it. Zangief has the hit boxes around his fists, the vulnerability box around his shoulders and head, and that's it. Anything not in these two boxes is untouchable. And yes, capcom paintakingly defines the hittable and hitting areas for every single frame of every single attack during its execution. If capcom wants to make an incredibly slow attack invincible from start to finish, they can do that. It doesn't matter that the DP or any other attack comes out "fast" or "instantly", that isn't at ALL why it's invincible. It's invincible because capcom said so, and the way they said so is by drawing these boxes around the character's body. An invincible move simply doesn't have the green boxes you see in my diagram. One more, speed has nothing to do it. Imagine zangief doing a d+Fierce splash on ryu, and ryu uppercuts him. A dragon punch might execute quickly, but it isn't executing more quickly than Zangief's splash which has been in the hit-detection phase for several frames.

This is ONLY how I'm saying it works in 2D games. I think we've gone over lots of "faster attacks win" and "hitting their body when they can't hit your fist or foot" crap. I'm not arguing any of that, clearly VF works a bit differently than a 2D game.
VF may have hit boxes or it may not, it's hard to tell. It's pretty clear that you can't hit some moves during their execution as easily as others.

I'm going to wrap this up by saying that if my proof isn't good enough for you, you can try renting Darkstalkers and turn on these boxes to see what I mean, or you can talk to a Capcom programmer. Don't stick by your argument just because you made it up and you think it's an elegant explanation to everything.

 

Wow.. a diagram. Now that's dedication. I follow sf discussions, i read 2d fighter sites, i've read james chen's system faqs, which contain everything you need to know about streetfighter systems, and yet I've never heard of anything like this.

Shang, I have no idea where you're getting fewer frames affecting move priority. Unless you're talking in the abstract, (if it's faster, you'll probably interrupt more moves) but i think it's the technical side that's being discussed here, yes? It's like saying that all slow starting moves have poor priority. Take for example Gen's KKK style ducking fierce punch. It takes an incredibly long time to come out, but when it does come out, it has super priority.

 

The combos in SF3 are so easy to do. The time frame you have to enter the next portion of the combo just seems so much larger in the newer games. That does not matter because that was not what I was refering to when I said depth I mean the depth of character matchups in Turbo is greater than in SF3ts. I mean you have no Sean's of Chun-Li's ,in turbo everyone is a very viable character most of the turbo characters can kill you with two combo's it just more intense and fun IMHO. CvS2 is boring because each time you play it is very similiar to the last time. If i have to fight one more Blanka or Sagat. I am also not similiar to the people who dicount VF4 because I actually play CvS2 quite a bit it just gets very old very quickly. If you would like to continue this discussion pm me I agree with Creed this is not the place to have this discussion.

 

>Shang, that was long. I was proud.

Proud for what?

>Shang jump on and say "what are you smoking?!" .

You did see the =) sign after what are you smoking?? I thought we had a friendly gather last time? Or does this have something to do with the Akira bashing that’s been going on since Boston?

>I got the help of #capcom because clearly you aren't going to believe anything I say, you made up your system and you're going to stick with it. But for you to say the word of #capcom doesn't mean shit is retarded.

Two reasons: 1, I’m ignorant or 2, you haven’t established a valid argument. It could be 1 I guess… but up to this point, you have not define what is priority yet you loosely use this term at will. And now you add the invulnerable box, I thought you only had 2 boxes? I'm sure alot of are taken from #capcom, but at least get the basis.
In your reply to another user, I quote you “Now that I think about it, maybe priority is just a simple matter of "my attack is hitting from way far away and yours can't touch me". Comment like this makes you sound like you are clueless. Now if you are only a merely a voice for #capcom, say so. Secondly, please don’t pull this big name and stuff words in people’s month BS, what I said was “#capcom means shit, if you can’t back it upâ€Â, did I mention Alex Valle? No. John Choi? Is everything come out #capcom bible?? If you can't prove, forget prove, at least explain what comes out of your month, it’s worthless. Remember this is a not discussion with #capcom, it’s with you.

>How would it look if a VF scrub came onto #vfhome and started arguing with you about how major counters work?

What if that person was actually a VF programmer? What if he tells you escape window is 15 frames not 10?

>stops, BOTH characters are frozen during that time, the super combo isn't "0 execution frames" and you aren't doing anything while your opponent is sitting still.

I said “something close to zero execution framesâ€Â, so you agreed with me super combos aren’t zero frames? . Now Please explain how the Custom Combo system worked in SFA2. Why can’t you low defend a low CC attack if you weren't holding d/b on the frame of activation


>Any part of your sprite that doesn't
A: have a PREDEFINED area that can HIT the enemy or
B: have a PREDEFINED area that can GET HIT by the enemy
= invincible.

What I am saying invulnerable zones and your hitboxes can or can not overlay each other. In the DP case they overlay, in the case of roundhouse they don’t overlay, which is why you can’t trade hits if two DPs are done together. Once again back your wording of “ hitbox defines invincibleâ€Â, I understand this as you mean, “if hitbox then auto invincibleâ€Â, which I disagree.

>I'm going to wrap this up by saying that if my proof isn't good enough for you, you can try renting Darkstalkers and turn on these boxes to see what I mean, or you can talk to a Capcom programmer. Don't stick by your argument just because you made it up and you think it's an elegant explanation to everything.

hehehe, at least I made it myself, unlike you. And it’s hardly elegant. In response to your “I hope I pissed you off…†Why do you get a kick out of pissing people off online? Haven’t you eard that saying, arguing on the net is like running the special Olympics. even if you win, you are still retarded? I think this is what Hyun was referring to with the “insider outsider†thing.

 

>i read 2d fighter sites, i've read james chen's system faqs, which contain everything you need to know about streetfighter

Good for you, have some candy.

> Shang, I have no idea where you're getting fewer frames affecting move priority. Unless you're talking in the abstract, (if it's faster, you'll probably interrupt more moves)
This might be abstract in SF, it's a very much a reality in VF.
Given move A, and B. All properties are exactly the same except A executions 1 frames faster than B.. Which one will interrupt the other when they are both done at exactly the same time? A

I'm getting the impression that to you and creed priority only applies in the detection phase... you assume A and B enter detection at the same time, then it's just a matter of which move's hit box will come in contact with the other's attack box first. This might be possible since relatively speaking SF moves have less execution frames than VF. If this is how you define priority then you are basically excluding execution from the equation. I guess this is where SF and VF difference, it's absolutely ludicrous to disregard execution in vf.

 

You did see the =) sign after what are you smoking?? I thought we had a friendly gather last time? Or does this have something to do with the Akira bashing that’s been going on since Boston?

We did have a friendly gathering, again I just thought you sounded very egotistical. If this were the only time someone had called you egotistical, you might think "gosh, creed is overreacting"... but it's not the first time is it?
And no, the akira bashing's got nothing to do with anything. It's mostly rich, and it's mostly because akira is a strong character. If anything, rich saying akira is unstoppable is a big compliment to you, since you're just about the only akira he ever faces.

Remember this is a not discussion with #capcom, it’s with you.

It's a basic tactic to support your point with the opinion of experts, which I believe many of the people in #capcom are. If you can find someone to support your ideas, I will be more impressed because it shows you didn't just make them up.

Why can’t you low defend a low CC attack if you weren't holding d/b on the frame of activation

It's simple, because SF crouching takes time to execute just like virtua fighter's crouching does. When you activate a custom combo, the screen freeze is happening to both characters. When you come out of the freeze, any attack you do speeds up to the point where it has very few execution frames. So a Custom combo sweep comes out in fewer frames than it takes for the opponent to crouch. Again, the freeze means nothing, all you have to do is watch the screen to see that both players are doing nothing at all. It's just decoration.

What I am saying invulnerable zones and your hitboxes can or can not overlay each other. In the DP case they overlay, in the case of roundhouse they don’t overlay, which is why you can’t trade hits if two DPs are done together. Once again back your wording of “ hitbox defines invincibleâ€Â, I understand this as you mean, “if hitbox then auto invincibleâ€Â, which I disagree.

I never said "if hitbox then auto invincible"... I agree with you that hitboxes and vulnerable boxes can lay on top of each other. I didn't draw that in my example and maybe I should have. But we agree: if zangief does his PPP spin punch, the fists can hit his enemy and ryu's dragon punch can hit zangief's fists.


hehehe, at least I made it myself, unlike you.

Coming up with your own interpretation of the truth in a fighting game is something to be proud of? I could come onto VFDC and say "virtua fighter doesn't have throws, throws are just attacks with zero execution time that you can't block"... I made that up all by myself, but is it worth anything? No. What I'm telling you is learned from other people, people who are better than you and me put together. That's why my argument has weight and support and yours doesn't. If you think that bringing in other people's opinions is the wrong way to argue, fine. I'll back up what I say with only my qualifications - I've been playing street fighter since SF2, I started playing it long before I picked up virtua fighter, I've played good players in the arcades at UCLA, and I've been following AGSF2 for a very long time.

And it’s hardly elegant. In response to your “I hope I pissed you off…†Why do you get a kick out of pissing people off online? Haven’t you heard that saying, arguing on the net is like running the special Olympics. even if you win, you are still retarded? I think this is what Hyun was referring to with the “insider outsider†thing.

Insider outsider's got nothing to do with it. And whoever said that about arguing on the net was being an ass. Arguing on the net is not any different than arguing in real life, except that on the net you have time to think about and rewrite your arguments. People are also more inclined to be insulting on the net since they feel safer knowing the other person's miles away. Anyway we're getting off topic.
I said "I hope I piss you off" because of you 'what are you smoking' comment. It's insulting whether you throw a smiley on it or not. If I see jim or rich say something that I don't agree with, I don't act like they're scrubs on crack.

 

I'm getting the impression that to you and creed priority only applies in the detection phase... you assume A and B enter detection at the same time, then it's just a matter of which move's hit box will come in contact with the other's attack box first.

This isn't what I'm saying. Look, we all know that if two players do a move at the same time, and my move executes faster, my move will usually win. It won't ALWAYS win though, like if I low kick at the same time as you do a punch, my low kick is going to hit and your punch isn't. So when we say priority, of course where the move hits and how quick it is matters. I never said that execution is meaningless in 3D games. I was only arguing about the hit box stuff in 2D games, which I said in the last post - pay attention. In 2D games, even if attack A is faster than attack B, attack B -frequently- will win because of the way the designers put priority into it. In VF this is very rarely the case, generally the first/fastest attack will win.

 

Its cool, I still believe in what I said. But I do believe you feel the same way about your thoughts. And the way you put them, I agree with you...Cuz I think we not even talking about same thing /versus/images/icons/smile.gif. Lets be the adults about this and set the example before Creed and Shang start catapulting shit /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif !

 

>We did have a friendly gathering, again I just thought you sounded very egotistical. If this were the only time someone had called you egotistical, you might think "gosh, creed is overreacting"... but it's not the first time is it?
HAHAHAHA! You are calling me egotistical?? This coming from a person, who's been telling people to go try this, go do that, pay attention here, pay attention there, while repeating himself time after time? At least I took time to explain what am I saying, whereas you just wave the #capcom flag with the take it or leave it attitude. If you just take some time and try to understand me you'd realize I'm covering all aspects of what you've been quoting. The #capcom system makes perfect sense, and I'm in agreement with it, which is why I said wayyyy in the beginning this is based on miscommunication and lack of common definitions and now your lack of abilities/will to translation all the aspects that defines #capcom prority system. Instead you add this box here and there and automatically assume people who know what exactly you are talking about without telling what's what.
>And no, the akira bashing's got nothing to do with anything. It's mostly rich, and it's mostly because akira is a strong character. If anything, rich saying akira is unstoppable is a big compliment to you, since you're just about the only akira he ever faces.

Don't get me started on this... In what way is it a fucking compliment to me? Get over yourselves man! Am I suppose to feel good from Rich punching the stick and walk out without saying bye everytime??? Am I suppose to feel good from posts like "akira is a disgusting pig"? By saying Akira is strong as a character, it can be inversely taken as the player has no skills, it's the character that's strong, you are just riding on the character. I remember you picked Akira and did nothing but low punch just to try to prove your point... and obviously you made this even more clearer in your many posts on Akira's braindead combos. Lastly you've also added Akira to the easiest to learn group, which is absolutely bullshit. we are off topic.

>It's a basic tactic to support your point with the opinion of experts, which I believe many of the people in #capcom are. If you can find someone to support your ideas, I will be more impressed because it shows you didn't just make them up.

When was I ever in disagreement with #capcom? This shit is common sense if you play fighting games for awhile, just take some time to think about every aspects and type for a long ass time... Isn't rocket science.

>It's simple, because SF crouching takes time to execute just like virtua fighter's crouching does. When you activate a custom combo, the screen freeze is happening to both characters. When you come out of the freeze, any attack you do speeds up to the point where it has very few execution frames. So a Custom combo sweep comes out in fewer frames than it takes for the opponent to crouch. Again, the freeze means nothing, all you have to do is watch the screen to see that both players are doing nothing at all. It's just decoration.

By speeding up you mean your frames execute faster than his in execution????! Is this not frame advantage? And How you can say speed is not important when you just said your attack speeds up (which is why CC has great priority). When your attack comes out faster than your opponent can block, isn't that zero-frame like execution?? Again... SF games run in a lot less frames than vf games. How many frames does it take for you to block in sf, very few i bet. And Creed the effect of "freezes the opponent" goes beyond the freezing frames, it's what comes after, when you can kick him without him be able to block.

>I never said "if hitbox then auto invincible"... I agree with you that hitboxes and vulnerable boxes can lay on top of each other. I didn't draw that in my example and maybe I should have. But we agree: if zangief does his PPP spin punch, the fists can hit his enemy and ryu's dragon punch can hit zangief's fists.


If not auto, then how does hit box define invincibility as you said? And yes you should have draw in your example because that is the heart of our difference: is hitbox always invincible. Ryu can hit Zangief because the DP detection zone is also marked as invulnable zone, and Zangief is not... this is just like DPing a roundhouse...

>Coming up with your own interpretation of the truth in a fighting game is something to be proud of?

If the truth mirrors the facts then yes. Tell me where I am wrong instead of "I got my info from #capcom, so you are talking out of your ass".
>I'll back up what I say with only my qualifications - I've been playing street fighter since SF2, I started playing it long before I picked up virtua fighter, I've played good players in the arcades at UCLA, and I've been following AGSF2 for a very long time.

You've been playing sf for many years... you have played good players.... you've followed AGSF2 for long time, and that makes you .... superman?

>Insider outsider's got nothing to do with it.

Disagree
>And whoever said that about arguing on the net was being an ass. Arguing on the net is not any different than arguing in real life, except that on the net you have time to think about and rewrite your arguments. People are also more inclined to be insulting on the net since they feel safer knowing the other person's miles away. Anyway we're getting off topic.

I give you this.

>I said "I hope I piss you off" because of you 'what are you smoking' comment. It's insulting whether you throw a smiley on it or not. If I see jim or rich say something that I don't agree with, I don't act like they're scrubs on crack.


As oppose to your "no go, no go, pay attention"? I was trying to joke, but obviously I'm an "outsider"...=)
And nice signature, that represent you attitude well.

 

>This isn't what I'm saying. Look, we all know that if two players do a move at the same time, and my move executes faster, my move will usually win. It won't ALWAYS win though, like if I low kick at the same time as you do a punch, my low kick is going to hit and your punch isn't. So when we say priority, of course where the move hits and how quick it is matters. I never said that execution is meaningless in 3D games. I was only arguing about the hit box stuff in 2D games, which I said in the last post - pay attention. In 2D games, even if attack A is faster than attack B, attack B -frequently- will win because of the way the designers put priority into it.

Again you give the impression as if the designer assigns a value to priority, it's not so. Priority is the end result of different factors. In this case is by character space. Forget the fancy naming, just read this and you'll see I've covered this and agreeing with you in directly:

Alternation of the character space: Some moves will change the space the character occupies, move that cause you to duck or airborn or back up. This could avoid/dodge the detection zone of the incoming attack."

>In VF this is very rarely the case, generally the first/fastest attack will win.

Low kick a high punch is rare in VF?? hm..... WTF you talking about.

 

You misquoted me Shang, please include the full text of what i'm saying in the future, I don't want any candy. I said afterwards that in reading all that I have, I've never heard of your theories, so I'm guessing you figured them out for yourself.

You've been using your own terms, which seems to have been a big source of confusion. Oh, and I believe "Creed's hit boxes" is the accepted term, well.. minus the Creed.

I'm not talking about virtua fighter either. I don't know a lot about virtua fighter, so I mostly keep my mouth shut about it and read and listen, but I know streetfighter. The streetfighter systems are very well known by the community. Yes, this is a virtua fighter board, but I can't help it, I know you're wrong about speed affecting priority in sf at least. I don't really have a problem with most everything else you're saying, it seems right, just said in a different way than Creed.

 

>You've been using your own terms, which seems to have been a big source of confusion. Oh, and I believe "Creed's hit boxes" is the accepted term, well.. minus the Creed.

How can my terms be a big source of confusion when there are no official terms in the first place? If any, my terms have only clarified what's been discussed here. The confusion is when people talk about very specific things without bothering to define them.

>Yes, this is a virtua fighter board, but I can't help it, I know you're wrong about speed affecting priority in sf at least.

I'm going to repeat to you of what I said to Creed. HOW am I wrong??

>I don't really have a problem with most everything else you're saying, it seems right, just said in a different way than Creed

Unless you can say something constructive and concrete, what you think really doesn't matter. =)

 

There are official terms, and hit box is the official term among street fighters. I threw it around because you seemed familiar with street fighter terms and I thought that was one you'd recognize. I guess not. You seem to make a lot of general statements like "these people's opinion doesn't mean anything" and "there is no accepted general term".

 

Again you give the impression as if the designer assigns a value to priority, it's not so. Priority is the end result of different factors.

YOU ARE WRONG. YOU ARE MAKING THIS UP. YOU EVEN ADMIT THAT EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE ABOUT THE STREET FIGHTER PRIORITY SYSTEM IS SOMETHING YOU CAME UP WITH YOURSELF.

THE DESIGNERS ASSIGN EACH AND EVERY SINGLE MOVE A PRIORITY BY GIVING THE MOVE HIT BOXES, VULNERABLE BOXES, AND THE AREAS IN BETWEEN THOSE BOXES ARE INVINCIBLE. THIS IS HOW IT WORKS. IF SHANG YANG FAILS TO RECOGNIZE OR ADMIT THIS, THAT STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THIS IS HOW IT WORKS.


I'm sorry, I don't know how else to put it more clearly. If you disagree with the above statement, you might as well argue that the earth is flat because that's the way it looks to you. You aren't even willing to entertain the idea that you MIGHT be wrong. When I point out the fact that many respected players know about this system, and that it's something you can see for yourself in darkstalkers, you somehow ignore all that and just repeat what you think.

>In VF this is very rarely the case, generally the first/fastest attack will win.
Low kick a high punch is rare in VF?? hm..... WTF you talking about.

Now you're intentionally playing dumb in an effort to just win the argument. You know exactly what I mean: In situations where either attack could hit, the faster attack or the one that was executed first will win. Clearly I am not saying that it's rare for VF moves to outprioritize others when one move has zero chance of connecting.

You have no interest in learning how any of this works, you're just arguing this to death because you can't stand to be wrong. You have no interest in checking out stuff like usenet posts or darkstalkers or the opinions of expert street fighter players. You just want to believe your fantasy and be right. That's fine, I can shoot down your arguments all day, it gives me something to do.

 

Ok, I'm really trying hard not to be too insulting, but you're pissing me off.

Execution time has NOTHING to do with priority, period, stop pulling this garbage out of thin air. You're making things up. Between what you think and what the #capcom people think, I think i'll take #capcom.

> How can my terms be a big source of confusion when there are no official terms in the first place? If any, my terms have only clarified what's been discussed here. The confusion is when people talk about very specific things without bothering to define them.

Yeah, well, I see people jumping all over others when they use different terms from the ones that are accepted in VF. Stun palm o' Doom isnt the proper name, but it's the accepted name. Hit boxes is the accepted term.

>HOW am I wrong??
I already told you, and i repeated it above.

I did not discover what is known about priority, it is -- common knowledge -- to anybody who knows about SF. Unless you've gone in to the game code, YOU have no proof, and you are alone.

You want something constructive? Here's something. How about we all drop street fighter, and stick to VF, I don't see this going anywhere, because you're ignoring known facts. Creed isn't making an argument, he's telling you the -facts-. Oh, unless #capcom and sites like www.shoryuken.com have been wrong all this time and Shang knows all.

 

HAHAHAHA! You are calling me egotistical?? This coming from a person, who's been telling people to go try this, go do that, pay attention here, pay attention there, while repeating himself time after time? At least I took time to explain what am I saying, whereas you just wave the #capcom flag with the take it or leave it attitude.


First, there isn't a damn thing wrong with what you call "the #capcom flag", it's a perfectly valid way of arguing my point. You choose to ignore it, but that only makes your style of debating a point look weaker, not mine. You don't bring up any support for your point of view (if ignorance can be called a 'point of view'). Why not? I know why, because you're the only person who believes your horseshit. I respect someone who can find an expert to back up their opinion. Street Fighter may not be rocket science, but you can't expect one person to work out the priority system on their own without anyone else and get it 100% correct the first time. To say that you've played for a while, come up with an idea of how it works, and you are therefore right is arrogant. Try listening to someone else's opinion about how it works. Anyone's. It doesn't have to be mine. Ellinas has offered his 2 cents and you pretty much told him to fuck off. So why don't you ask some serious street fighter players?
-------------------
Second I took PLENTY of time to explain myself. I did it over and over because you don't seem to get it the first time. I even drew you a diagram. You won't settle for anything less than a 400 K faq and a sworn affidavit from the entire street fighter programming crew. You feel that your homebrew opinion is just as valid as any expert player's, but I say it isn't. I say someone who's played the game 5 or 10 times more than you have probably has a more valid opinion than yours. And no, I'm NOT saying that person is necessarily me.

===============
I remember you picked Akira and did nothing but low punch just to try to prove your point... and obviously you made this even more clearer in your many posts on Akira's braindead combos. Lastly you've also added Akira to the easiest to learn group, which is absolutely bullshit. we are off topic.

wah wah wah. You get a ton of respect for your VF playing shang. Your sudden defensiveness is puzzling me. Nobody walks around saying "Shang sucks".. at least not at VF, not with Akira or anyone else. I saw a post on virtua project the other day saying that Rich's frustration might not be from dealing with akira bullshit, but with a player as strong as Shang. So no more whining out of you. If I post about how strong an Akira combo is, it's got nothing to do with you. If rich slaps the sticks and walks away and bitches in a public forum about Akira, that's something you can take up with him. I've never seen him criticize your skill either in public or in private.
---
By speeding up you mean your frames execute faster than his in execution????! Is this not frame advantage? And How you can say speed is not important when you just said your attack speeds up (which is why CC has great priority).

By speed up I mean his d+roundhouse executes faster than your d/b block.
Custom combo does NOT have great priority because of its speed, although I will admit that it is quick. Custom combos have priority because the programmers made them that way. Want proof? Here's an easy one. Custom Combo right next to a fireball. You will walk right through it. That's because no part of your body can be hit by any attack in the world during the first frames of CC execution. This is something the capcom programmers give you. Again it's got nothing to do with the speed. And before you say "HOW CAN YOU SAY SPEED DOESN'T MATTER?!" ... I'm not. I'm just forcing you to admit that there's more to priority than how fast your attack is and where it hits.

Another example if you need it. I jump, charlie flash kicks. I custom combo at the same moment charlie's flash kicks is in the detection phase. Who wins? I do, the big circular rings that flash from my body blow out any attack and have 100% PREPROGRAMMED priority over everything. In the meantime my character's body has NO HITTABLE PARTS, and again this is just what the programmers intended. Spacing, timing, none of it determines whether or not the flash kick hits the custom combo. If I CC, then during the first handful of frames I am invincible to everything, and that's the ONLY reason the custom combo wins in the example I give. It's not because I'm 'spaced better' than charlie or 'timed it better'.

When was I ever in disagreement with #capcom? This shit is common sense if you play fighting games for awhile, just take some time to think about every aspects and type for a long ass time... Isn't rocket science.


When you said that their opinion wasn't worth shit and that this argument was strictly between you and me. I think some people in #capcom would disagree with your statement.

If the truth mirrors the facts then yes. Tell me where I am wrong instead of "I got my info from #capcom, so you are talking out of your ass".


I have already told you where you are wrong. When you talked about the super combo freeze, you were wrong. When you said execution time or longer collision frames determines priority, you were wrong. When you said that "CreeD claims hit boxes are invincible" you were wrong. When you said that "there is no officially recognized term for this stuff" you were wrong. When you said "what the people in #capcom think doesn't mean shit" you were wrong.

====================
Part of the problem may be the way we're defining priority. You sound like you're saying priority is "when one attack beats another" ... but that isn't specific enough. I don't think of a low kick as having more "priority" when it beats a jab. It beats the jab because the jab whiffed. Priority is referring to situations like this:
When two moves are equally likely to hit, which one wins?
Why do two characters sometimes trade hits?
Why does an attack seem like it should hit but it passes right through their body?

Priority isn't about situations like -
"my attack executes in 10 frames and yours executes in 100, so my move out-prioritized yours" ... priority is about
"my low attack executes in ten frames, and your low attack executes in ten frames, but yours won"
... that's the kind of priority I'm talking about, and I'm limiting my talk to 2D games.


Re: the insider/outsider crap.
shang, even if you were right (and I don't think you are).. it doesn't matter. I could be a retard child-molesting crack fiend asshole and it still doesn't determine who is right about this.

If you feel like there's an insider/outsider thing going on, it may be because your ego turns people off. It's painful to talk about stuff like this with you. I can't imagine Yupasawa or even Rich arguing the way you are right now. I don't need any nerve to call you egotistical because others have done it before many times, and that should tell you something. Part of being egotistical is refusing to admit the possibility that you're wrong. I do this sometimes, and it's an irritating and shitty thing, and I feel bad afterwards.. especially if someone proves me wrong.

 

Are you brain dead creed?? I Said YOU (Creed) give the impression the designer assigns a SINGLE value to priority, and it’s NOT true.

1, I stated more than once priority is defined by many factors: like hit box, vulnerable boxes, and how the move changes your position. In fact I've listed this very clearly in what defines as priority!!!! BUT Priority IS NOT a SINGLE VALUE, it’s not 1 to 100!!! When Pinkgirl asks what's move priority and you say the designers programs priority right in to the moves (without details) that gives the impression priority is a single value. Designers don’t program priority, they program hit box, vulnerable box, which gives priority.
"THE DESIGNERS ASSIGN EACH AND EVERY SINGLE MOVE A PRIORITY BY GIVING THE MOVE HIT BOXES, VULNERABLE BOXES," This is what I am talking about!!! understand???


2, I’m not bashing/disagreeing with #capcom I said this again and again. I am not saying #capcom is wrong. GOD! GET IT IN YOUR HEAD. I AM DISAGREEING WITH YOUR translation, which it is incomplete, inaccurate and misleading.

3, Your premise of “Shang’s point of view is horseshit†is the very reason you don’t care to take a second to translated what I’ve said to the “#capcom termsâ€Â. And if you did, you’d realize they are practically the same thing minus your shitty explanation.

>wah wah wah. You get a ton of respect for your VF playing shang. Your sudden >defensiveness is puzzling me.

Where did you get respect from all of these? Your ass??? You said I should feel it’s a big compliment from rich's complains. And I’m telling you I don’t and explained to you why.. Rich has nothing to do with this conversation, stop pulling shit out of your ass. Saying Akira is easy to learn and easy to play is an example the shit comes out of you.

>You want something constructive? Here's something. How about we all drop street >fighter, and stick to VF

Ellinas, this thread was started by a vf question, then Creed brought in a SF explanation that’s inappropriate and confusing. which leads to... this...

Add: There are no official terms here... HERE = VFDC, IN THIS DISCUSSION. If you are using capcom terms, you need to bring their definition here, HERE = VFDC, IN THIS DISCUSSION. While these things are clearly defined in the SF world, they aren't here. As much as I regret getting into a SF discussion with you base on VF terms, you were the first to use SF to explain VF, for you to bitch at me on basis that doesn't exist here is Ignorant.

 

Hit box is not an accepted term in VF. No one has ever mentioned it until Creed days ago. . I'm sorry if you two feel SF terms automatically extend to all communities. It doesn't. "Hit Box" also is a poor way to describe the hit detection zone in VF. In VF, the SF hit box's coodinate has a Z axis. That means the hit detection zone is a 3 Dimensional area, which I felt is better defined as a zone instead of a box. I'm using hit box because Creed can't seem to understand anything else.

 

1, I stated more than once priority is defined by many factors: like hit box, vulnerable boxes, and how the move changes your position. In fact I've listed this very clearly in what defines as priority!!!! BUT Priority IS NOT a SINGLE VALUE, it’s not 1 to 100!!! When Pinkgirl asks what's move priority and you say the designers programs priority right in to the moves (without details) that gives the impression priority is a single value. Designers don’t program priority, they program hit box, vulnerable box, which gives priority.
"THE DESIGNERS ASSIGN EACH AND EVERY SINGLE MOVE A PRIORITY BY GIVING THE MOVE HIT BOXES, VULNERABLE BOXES," This is what I am talking about!!! understand???

I understand that this is what you're saying NOW, but you're the only person to mention the 1 to 100 scale thing. I never tried to imply that, and if you misunderstood, ... well that's a shame for you. Nobody else wrote me saying "CreeD, I don't get it, are you saying it's a 1-100 value blah blah blah?"
...Don't blame me for your failure to get it. NOW you talk about invulnerable boxes like you understand them, but before you said "Creed why don't you share the stuff you are smoking??! =) The thing that makes the DP "high priority" is that it has like zero execution time." ... you have just as much of a failure to communicate as I did, because you sounded like you were saying priority = speed of the attack. Only several posts later do you talk about vulnerable and invincible areas.

Don't blame me for your failure to understand it.

I’m not bashing/disagreeing with #capcom I said this again and again. I am not saying #capcom is wrong. GOD! GET IT IN YOUR HEAD. I AM DISAGREEING WITH YOUR translation, which it is incomplete, inaccurate and misleading.


Bullshit, you weren't saying that anyone in Capcom was wrong?
How is anyone on capcom going to interpret "And so and so from #capcom means shit to me, unless you can back it up." ? You just said that you don't respect a goddamn thing that anyone on capcom says about it, and that it's up to me to 'prove' the whole priority system for you.

Where did you get respect from all of these? Your ass??? You said I should feel it’s a big compliment from rich's complains. And I’m telling you I don’t and explained to you why.. Rich has nothing to do with this conversation, stop pulling shit out of your ass. Saying Akira is easy to learn and easy to play is an example the shit comes out of you.

I'm pulling anything out of my ass, jesus christ do I have to dredge up every fucking quote every fucking time and quote it directly in order for you to acknowledge it? Go fucking look it up yourself, Yupa or someone said Shang has a strong Akira on Virtua Project like a week ago. I don't really give a fuck if you're insecure about it or not, in fact I should never have mentioned it. Go ahead and have a big persecuted martyr complex over it, nobody but you can judge whether or not you can play the game for shit or not, OK?

And as for my quote about akira being easy to learn... you're one of those mindless fucks that think a fast or difficult command like a SPoD or DLC makes a character "tough to learn". Well I couldn't SPoD or DLC once on those sticks, I didn't even try. I fucked up simple combos like d+P, f,f+P. But I could still beat you using d+P into either Shrm or d/f+P+G, and what's so fucking hard about THAT? I don't care if you want to get all pissy and defensive about your own skills, I'm not talking about your skills. I'm saying that Akira is a character who has simple, fast attacks with little recovery time that lead into braindead combos. Any trained monkey can do f,f,f+P MC, d+P, b,f+P. Any retard can do d+P and force you to guess whether they'll do f+P+K or d/f+P+G. Any epileptic six year old CAN'T do a DLC or SPoD, but they sure as hell can do f,f+K, K after a kuzure down. Akira is not at ALL tough to learn. You can play him with damned near four moves and look like an expert and inflict 25% damage per throw and 40% damage per combo. It's fucking simple and if you fail to recognize this, if you think having a SPoD makes akira an expert's character, you're in denial. Akira is a high power, low risk, easy reward, braindead character in VF4. He wasn't too frigging clever in VF3 either, come to think of it. I could take a newbie with a background in tekken and teach him effective akira in five minutes, and he wouldn't need to waste any of that time learning those oh-so-special SPoDs or DLCs or AS3's or knees.

Ellinas, this thread was started by a vf question, then Creed brought in a SF explanation that’s inappropriate and confusing.

Again, confusing to you doesn't mean confusing to anyone else. If there was any confusion before, a simple 3 color diagram probably cleared it up. You're only throwing around "confusion" in a weak effort to attack my arguments. You're acting like I was speaking greek and using complex forumulae. It's bullshit, and if you want to talk about confusion, here's a great example:

Add: There are no official terms here... HERE = VFDC, IN THIS DISCUSSION.

OH! gosh! so "there is no official term" = "there is no official term that I happen to know that ought to be used on this board during this discussion?"

You're a sore goddamned loser Shang, you made an ass statement, it wasn't unclear, you said exactly what you meant - you thought there was no commonly used expression for something as arcane as hit boxes and vulnerable areas. Now you're acting like you "meant" to say one thing, but accidentally left out a dozen important words. Yeah right. Fuck this.

Maybe I can wrap this up on a good note with a summary.

1. It's pretty clear by now, fifteen posts later or so, that both of us finally "get" the 2D fighting game system. We don't need to try to shove anything else into anyone's head.

2. Neither of us was crystal clear to the other. I can't speak about how clear we were to pinkgirl or anyone else who reads this thread (although by now they're reading it only for entertainment purposes).

3. You feel like you need to defend akira and yourself, that's fine, but I'm not going to be sucked into that. The next time you see a post that you feel unfairly criticises you or akira, feel free to make your points then.