move systems...how they work and why

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by shaolinjman, Nov 15, 2001.

  1. shaolinjman

    shaolinjman Member

    I was reading through an FAQ i found which talks about different move systems - miss/defeat, evade, shuffle step, counter stance, etc - what are move systems? and how do we make use of them?

    Some characters also seem to have certain stances classified as move systems - Kage's falling leaf stance, Lei's tiger stance - when is a stance just a stance and why the difference?

    Ok i think thats enough questions for now!
     
  2. LittleWild

    LittleWild Well-Known Member

    A stance is simply another different position taken by a character which usually comes with special abilities or a subset of moves.
    For example, Aoi's yinyang stance(b+P+K+G) has auto inashis against high/mid level attacks.
    Certain moves can only be executed when you are in the required stance. For example Sarah's hop kick throw can only be executed when she is in FL(flamingo stance).

    Hope it helps. Check out GLC's faq for more info.
     
  3. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Quick reply before I dash off:

    I think the confusion lies in that there are two ways of looking at stances:

    1) Character-specific: Jumonji, Yin-Yang, Flamingo, Headstand, etc. These are character stances, and I think what you are referring to as a "move system" is simply a system of attacks/reversals/throws derived from a specific stance.

    2) Non-character: One way that VF is different from Tekken is that which direction (in or out of the screen) that characters stand matters. Thus by stance, a person could be referring to the way the character is standing or in relation to how both characters are standing: / / or \ \ and / \ or \ /. The former (parallel stance) has one character facing out and the other facing in. The latter (eight stance) has both characters facing out or both characters facing in. These stances actually makes a big difference on gameplay, and some moves have different properties in different stances.

    In contrast, Tekken characters always stand in parallel.
     
  4. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
    XBL:
    adamYUKI
    Dont forget Hworang has many stance dependant moves that rely on both move stances (ala his version of the flamingo), and open/closed stance too just like VF.

    CrewNYC
     
  5. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    ** The former (parallel stance) has one character facing out and the other facing in. The latter (eight stance) has both characters facing out or both characters facing in. **

    "eight stance"?

    "parallel stance"?

    What the _fuck_ is that shit?! Why not just call it what they've been called for the last eight years, for christ's sake - open and closed stance. Why you insist on ignoring common terms and then making unintuitive, bizarre notation and further confusing things to high hell is fucking beyond me.
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Mr. Bungle already mentioned this in his special style, but I wanted to reiterate.

    WTF?!

    .. . to give this post some content:

    1. To the original poster, what jeff's trying to say is that there are the special stances (where your character stands in a really unusual way, i.e. with one leg raised in the air or with both hands clasped or spread out in a strange looking way).. and then there's the old fasioned way of using stance.

    Everyone stands roughly the same way when they're just standing normally, i.e. they are standing slightly sideways with one foot forward and one foot back.
    If you move both characters as close as possible and see one guy's stomach and one guy's back, that's closed stance. Think of it as a closed door. In this stance the character on the left can keep moving close until both of his feet are touching the opponent's feet.
    If both characters are showing stomach or both are showing their back, then that's open stance, like an open door. In that stance, you can try to move them as close together as possible, but only one of your feet will touch one of your opponent's feet. In this stance it's harder to throw (and there are some other little quirks as well).

    2. While we're on the subject of fucked up notation.... why is it that the nice guys at virtua project STILL use notation that nobody else in the world uses when they write faqs, make posts, or discuss moves on IRC? It drives me nuts.
    You see stuff like shun's low backpush-sweep combo as
    d/b|D/B+(P|D/B+P,K)
    when they could just write d/b+P and then drop down a line and write --K to denote a canned followup to the preceding move.
    The discrepency would confuse hell out of newbies, if newbies were more aware of Virtua Project's existence.
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.virtuaproject.com>http://www.virtuaproject.com</a>
     
  7. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    That crazy notation is a throw back to ImAShroom... When I got flak for not being "complete". So, with ImAShroom at the reigns we "corrected" all the movelists to be as complete as possible (i.e. to show the partically infinite number of ways one can execute a punch or a low kick, etc etc). I have no objection to cutting the fat from the lists, so to speak. But, I'm not up to it right now. Maybe Yupa is up for the challenge. The one thing I won't give up though is * for FC. I hate FC, I much prefer *.



    cheers,
    kbcat
     
  8. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    That's cool that you're open to the idea.
    Imashroom was, by all accounts, a moron.
    I do understand that revamping all of that shit is a lot of work.
    Pass it off to me, or part of it. I'm glad to do so.

    I can live with * for FC. FC kinda reminds me of tekken or soul calibur, but it IS intuitive. A new reader who never bothered to look at the legend might guess what the initials stood for the first time they read them. But * is one character shorter.

    Honestly, what's wrong with D? or D_?
    I guess SOME redneck car salesman might not understand that this implies a move from a crouch, and that "charging" down on the stick is not needed if you are, for example, just coming out of a QR. But I think 99% of readers are bright enough to get it right off the bat. Maybe I'm being a Pollyanna.
     
  9. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    Just to defend Jeff here, the terms he's using are the ones that have been used in all Japanese literature since VF2.

    I think open and closed stance is fine, and I wouldn't post and refer to "hanoji" (japanese for open, or 8 stance) here, but if you travel, play with people who are from asia and read chinese character based languages, or want to read mooks, then it's good to know.

    When I talk with my new VF friend zerom (who is korean) about Akira, if I say Super Dash Elbow, he doesn't know what I mean. If I say Yakuho, he understands. Even though Korea has it's own written language, they still are taught to read some chinese in school, and so he reads VF command names as they are written by AM2, even if he pronounces it a little differently "Yapuho". I discussed the same idea with Howard, who is from Taiwan. There they also use the same characters, but have different pronunciation.

    I agree that there are standards for english speaking VF players, and since this board is in english we should use them. But I don't think Jeff should be repremanded for using terms that are universal elsewhere, and are probably even more familiar to some people on this board.

    In fact, I think if American VF players were willing to learn a little foreign language skills, and started learning the terms people elsewhere use to discuss this game, they'd probably learn about it much faster, and wouldn't have to rely on having other people translate things for them all the time. Just my two cents.

    Spotlite
     
  10. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Thank you Brian.

    To add to that, I have also often seen "open" and "closed" being misused. I have read people describing facing out to the screen as "open" and facing in to the screen as "closed." To avoid all ambiguity, I like parallel and eight stance to refer to what I just described above.

    Also, there is nothing intuitive about "open" or "closed." / \ looks open to me. But oops, \ / looks closed. Hmm...

    And finally, the terms "parallel" and "eight" are not exactly strange to American VFers. As far as I can remember reading about VF on the net, those terms have been used frequently. Honestly, let's not get too worked up about these little things OK?
     
  11. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    re: intuitive open/closed. Picture one line as the door frame when viewed from above and the other line as the door. Now does it seem a little more intuitive?

    / \ Open door viewed from above

    \\ Closed door viewed from above.

    I can't imagine why anyone bothers distinguishing between whose side is facing into or out of the screen, that's just confusing. The way open and closed has been used in the documents I've read, it's always been very clear and never has been that specific.
     
  12. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    >>Also, there is nothing intuitive about "open" or "closed." / \ looks open to me. But oops, \ / looks closed. Hmm... <<

    That's because you're a drooling fucking retard, Jeff.
     
  13. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    >>but if you travel, play with people who are from asia and read chinese character based languages, or want to read mooks, then it's good to know........and are probably even more familiar to some people on this board. <<

    Well ain't that just spiffy for the 5% (if that) of the people here who fall into that. I mean with those numbers I could also say that it would also be good to know that closed and open stance is translated as "fermée et ouverte position" (or so says babel) for our French readers and those that want to play in France with Almaci.

    Nothing changes the fact that outright ignorance of old standard terms and pulling Japanese terms out of ones ass and using them in place of the common english standard on a board with an overwhelming english-using majority is really damn stupid. It's impractical, and it only confuses and complicates things more.

    >>and wouldn't have to rely on having other people translate things for them all the time

    More than a few people already do or have done that. We've always had to rely on someone, we've gotten along just fine (even better with babelfish now), and to suggest for us to learn a foreign language for VF is silly and unrealistic. And it swings both ways - the tiny minority here not familiar with the notation here could go out of their way to learn it, which, unless they're typing entirely in their own foreign language, isn't a bad idea.
     
  14. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Open and closed doors? Wha-? Now that's intuitive, yup.

    As for facing in and facing out, it does matter. Jacky's PK, for example, is different depending which way he's facing.

    Take it easy man.
     
  15. CowsGoMoo

    CowsGoMoo New Member

    Honestly, D or D_ doesn't work because it's technically incorrect. You never have to press down or a down diagonal to be crouching, for some characters. Lion can do f+P+K~b, and this produces a crouch. So isn't FC f+P or *f+P more logical?

    The other problem is that some characters must do from crouching moves with a down direction on the joystick. Case in point: Sarah's Double Low kicks... from crouching, then d+K (or d/b). If you say that capital letters mean you hold the joystick, it's still inaccurate, since you can hold down until the cows come home, but unless your character is free to crouch, they can't.

    Long-winded response to a simple question.

    Meanwhile, some Tekken-inspired notations would be very well served in VF4: tilda (~) and SS come to mind.



    Moo!
     
  16. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Why don't you point out for us all where exactly you've seen "open" and "closed" misused, and where Americans have used "eight" and "parallel" so "frequently", you mindless garble-brained fuckhead.
     
  17. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: the D_ vs. * .. you're right.

    As for SS, we have been saying E - (Whatever) for a while now, and it suits me fine. E-PKG (dodging PKG)... E-low side throw (dodge, low side throw)...

    The tilde.. that's like rolling from one button quickly to the next or something? I don't remember well. VF doesn't have many with this requirement, if we're talking about the same thing.
     
  18. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hahahahaahahahaahaaaa, that's really funny man, keep it up.
     
  19. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Why don't you at least try and answer the fucking question, you stupid little brat.
     
  20. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    re: open and closed doors, you're not being sarcastic I hope. It's how open vs. closed was explained to me when I was learning and I got it instantly, although that could be a fluke. Are you still failing to see it maybe?!

    ----
    I always thought Jacky's P+K was different based on open vs. closed, not which foot is leading forward. If it is based on which foot is leading forward, it's probably the only move that works that way in the entire series and deserves its own footnote. Aside from that one move, any discussions of whose left vs. whose right or whose front vs. whose back is confusing and irrelevant, and that's why the common usage for open and close stance ignore these things. I can't figure out where you found posts that pay attention to left/right or front/back, but if they're out there then they were poorly explained and the person writing them should have aimed to be less confusing. Or maybe part of the open/closed explanation included the fact that everyone starts a round on both the 1P and 2P side with their right foot forward (with player one showing back and player two showing belly). Maybe you misinterpreted that explanation to be the common usage of open vs. closed. All I can say is since the open/closed door analogy, I have never failed to get what someone meant in any RGVA or VFDC or IRC info. And left/right or front/back issues never crossed my mind in all that time.
     

Share This Page