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Movelist Note Suggestion: Lion's 2K beats Special High

Discussion in 'Lion' started by Chanchai, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Test it :)

    This has been true for Lion for awhile, that his 2K beats special high attacks--it is exempt from the rules of special high attacks beating low attacks.

    I did mention this years ago in the moves analysis thread for the VF Wiki. I understand not wanting to give beginners this information because it is incredibly hard to apply in FS (except against people who love to spam special high attacks).

    However, I think it's worth putting in the movelist notes section.

    Again, if you need to verify it, just test it out :)
    Tricky likes this.
  2. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf Bronze Supporter

    And so I did... and the result was quite surprising.

    My first test was with Brad since it's very easy to pull off [6_][K].
    I recorded Brad doing [P] > [6_][K] and started the inputs.
    After blocking the first [P] I tried to input [1][K] and I got hit in CH.
    After getting hit in NH by the first [P] I've been hit in CH.
    Same result even after being hit in CH.

    So vs Brad it's a no go.

    Same results vs Aoi with her [4][K] I couldn't beat it with Lion's [1][K]

    Vs Eileen something weird started happening.
    I picked Eileen's [4][6][K][+][G] which is 19f exectuions.
    To do the things right I have to be at least -4 otherwise Lion's [1][K] will win because it hits faster.
    So I recorde Eileen to do [P] > [4][6][K][+][G] I let the first punch land and tried to pull off [1][K]. Keep in mind that I'm -5 in this scenario, so Lion's 16f kick shouldn't beat a 19f special high from -5.
    BUT IT DOES! I got a [1][K] in CH that leads to easy combos. I even tried to be lazy and I inputed the low kick with a big delay and still won but in rCH this time.

    Now that we have an idea to how test this I kept going and tried testing vs:

    Blaze's [4][6][K] and [4][3][P][+][K] Those moves are 22f and 26f execution, so I had to get a side CH with [2][P][+][K] to get enough frames and get a proper test. With this in mind, both moves beat Lion's [1][K]

    Goh's [6][K][+][G].. This is 30f execution (I feel like the game is trolling me giving me slower and slower moves to test this) so i swapped roles and took control of Goh. I recorded Lion doing [4][K][P] > [1K] and Lion loses the clash.

    Jacky has a lot, I mean A LOT, of Special High, and so far none of those move lost vs Lion's [1][K]. May need a 2nd opinion to get these tested properly.

    I've been testing only these moves so far and will come back to the testing, but so far the [1][K] doesn't seem to break the game going again'st the *H rules. Looks like only Eileen is the unlucky character.


    I kept testing and so far the other weird case I found is vs Vanessa BT [P][+][K] If we are -3 Vanessa wins, but if we are -5 Lion does.
    Vs Wolf I'm not sure about what I found out so I'll explain after further testing
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  3. Stl_Tim

    Stl_Tim Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    Maybe I'm slow, but wasn't he referring to 2k and not 1k??
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  4. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Yeah dude it's 2K not 1K and it's well known that it breaks EX high moves. Just like Shun's 2K and under some circumstances eileen's 2K.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
    Chanchai likes this.
  5. YOMI

    YOMI not a legendary game designer

    Glitched move, ban Lion.
    Chanchai likes this.
  6. Stl_Tim

    Stl_Tim Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    I've found one that works where it counts!
    Blaze's notorious 9p+k into k crumple shall not be feared anymore!!!

    2k ftw!

    Big ups to chanchai!
    Chanchai likes this.
  7. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf Bronze Supporter

    shoot I misread the thing. Apologies <_<''
    Chanchai likes this.
  8. LegendaryHero90

    LegendaryHero90 Well-Known Member

    too slow. Doesnt combo in certain situations. opponent can block the second [K] depending on frames. 2/10 not even good.
  9. Stl_Tim

    Stl_Tim Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

    We are talking about 2k ch>k+g. Once it ch's the rest is guaranteed. We definitely aren't referring to 2k,k.
  10. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Well, here's what I can say from the last few years of experience:

    * Let's start with experience helps a lot. Isolated training might even tell you not to try some things... like 2K, K+G is just not hit-checkable and virtually not checkable period, and yet with experience, you kind of know when that super rare situation comes that 2K MCs (kinda like when you know 3P+K is going to MC because you "pre-check" and start buffering 44K right away).

    * 2K, K is actually good in situations where you know that it'll mC because it is guaranteed on mC and this situation is far more common and far more likely to happen than MC. It's also much more "pre-checkable" (meaning, you gotta be seeing it ahead of time). Like if you anticipate Jacky following up P+K, then Lion's 2KK is really not a bad option and a virtual guarantee but you can try to stop yourself from pressing the second K if you see he is not doing the followup... following this to a T is kinda hard, but experience suggests you're fine doing this). Credit to AyuFanboy for telling me I should not overlook 2KK because it's guaranteed on mC. He was right, and actually it has its uses and it's become free damage for me since.

    * 2K, K+G is awesome. However... Yes, 2K is so slow that it's very hard to know when you are going to actually MC with it. If anything, you just know it'll MC when you see that you've already done it ahead of time and you see your opponent is getting into an execution animation when that 2K is about to hit... And still, this is theoretically too hard to hi-check into K+G. If you go to training mode, it's probably not going to happen. But fighting games do allow us to predict, experience and judgment do matter--there are times when you can do 2K, K+G and know it's going to combo as you want it.

    * I'll restate the last part... 2K MC is very prediction-heavy. It's not really something you are going to see because 2K is actually stupidly slow. And in FS, when you're punishing special high with 2K, you have to do this super early to MC so most likely you are going to punish even a predicted special high with 2KK because of how short the execution of the special high probably was. 2K, K+G is actually great--but it's almost in hard-read territory for me at least. But seriously, both KO and I have honestly experienced often the feeling of knowing when it's going to MC and then pressing K+G at the last moment the game lets you do that--and this feeling is awesome. I usually only feel this during adrenaline in a tense series of games though.

    * 2K, K+G side mC, not so hot. It works, but I think you can't combo after it or if you can, it's really limited to near OTB stuff... At this point, if I know it's going to be side mC, I just do 2KK.

    * The reason 2K beating special high is good to know and relevant is not completely because you are going for MC. It's because you will still mC with it because the special high isn't going to just flat out cut your move off and kill you period. And special highs are unique attacks that some players do to punish low punches or lows in generals (and Lion has lots of great lows). 2K beating special high is relevant, especially for Lion, because of this. And special highs are something you can "read" in your opponent. It's something very different from when they use elbows or 2P reflexively. Most opponents use special highs for very specific reasons--and you can read them because of this :)

    For the record, I've never held 2K beating special high a secret. It's just that most people don't find it important, but I honestly feel it's at least noteworthy. If my memory isn't failing me, I've mentioned it to people who do have sway on the command list, but I think it's always met with a shrug or a "I'll test it sometime" (uh huh). Again, my memory of first knowing about it was Yosuke telling me way early on during VF5 version B on PS3.

    And even when 2K, K+G did not combo in vanilla--people can see I enjoyed going for it. It was fun :p Just like how I'm so proud I've hit EVERYONE with 4P+K. Even Fuudo and Itazan a few times lol.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
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  11. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Mister, want you to know I do appreciate that even if you misunderstood what I originally wrote, you took the time to test it out and prove. That's awesome and commendable and we are all better informed for it :)
    Tricky likes this.
  12. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    I want to 2nd the props given for going ahead and testing it, even if it wasn't the right move. Kudos for effort.
    Chanchai likes this.
  13. Mister

    Mister Well-Known Member Content Manager Wolf Bronze Supporter

    Well at least we know that 1K can beat Eileen's 46K+G ^^'' thanks for the kind word guys.
    Chanchai likes this.
  14. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    I"m willing to guess the reason it wins is because lion's 1K does more damage than Eileen's 46K+G so when the to moves meet the higher damaging attack wins. Alas, such is the struggle of Eileen. If it's not that, then it's a property of Eileen's move. It's a weird one where her hurtbox below her waist is odd and her hitbox for the kick stretches out far at the end of the animation, but at the start her hurtbox is far out front of her. So basically, the moves has to be used so that the tip of the foot is the only part coming in contact with the opponent's hurtbox, otherwise she tends to get hit out of situations that she "shouldn't" typically lose to. Alas, that too is the struggle with eileen's moves.
  15. Combolammas

    Combolammas Sheep

    Eileen 46K+G does 20. Lion 1K does 15 & 12 on first and second hit respectively. So it's hitboxes being messed up again. Misters test also does not have the attacks connect on the same frame which would be the only case where it would even matter.
    Mister likes this.

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