Namco throwing versus VF throwing

This may seem like a strange question, but what the hey...

The Tekken and Soul Edge series both feature execution time for their throws; the throws aren't instantaneous, but they can interrupt the opponents attacks.

Virtua fighter's throws (I'm excluding catch throws and some exceptions for simplicity's sake here) don't have an execution animation, but can't interrupt the opponents attacks.

As a Namco player converting to the Sega system, I am having a terrible time adjusting to such a fundamental change in gaming engines.

Would someone please explain the subtleties in the differences in the engines to me? Failing that any pointers on adjusting would be great.

If this subject has been covered before, a link to the articles would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Chrisdaggimoh

PS. If possible try not to fill replies with opinions on which system is better without explaining why. I don't want this thread to turn into a Tekken versus Virtua fighter flame fest.

 

All I can say is I aslo went through this problem. Just remember to dash in when you see an oppurtunity to throw. Even if your close just always dash and throw so you are always in range.

P.S. if you really give VF a chance you'll have a hard time going back. I cant play Tekken anymore it just contols like mud.

Under the surface of the most jaded cynic lies a dissappointed idealist- George Carlin

 

My fourth all nighter in a week, but what the hey.

To answer your question, it may seem harder to throw in VF3 because it there are a lot more conditions than in Tekken, but once you begin to recognize situations that lead to yield throws, the throw will feel that much more reliable to you because it is instantaneous. So as long as you learn the whens, throwing will seem like a much bigger component of your arsenal than in Tekken.

 

Don't worry, it's definitely not a strange question. In fact, it's a pretty common question whenever I'm on the subject of VF with a lot of Tekken players. They know I have a respect (and appreciation) of the Tekken series, so I get a lot of direct questions and comments about VF or Tekken when we talk about those games. The biggest question is how to throw in VF, or at least, when opportunity exists. The common comment is, "I hate throwing in VF, how do you throw so much?" Anyways.... enough with the rant, I'll tell you what I know, to the best of my knowledge. I could very well be off, and hopefully, someone will pop up to correct me if I am.

I will for the most part discuss VF3's throwing system here, it is the one I am most comfortable in saying that I know. It's definitely based on VF1 and 2's throwing system. Throw whiffs, a more streamlined implementation (x+P+G = High throw, x+P+K+G = Low Throw), and an escape for all direct and traditional throws (I'll reference a list of nonescapable type throws later) were added to VF3.

I wish I knew Tekken's throw system better, in fact, could you point me to a comprehensive FAQ detailing the mechanics of Tekken? I haven't really found anything like that for Tekken yet. Most "General Faqs" are about stories and stuff like that. The Moveslists are just moveslists, etc... I think it would be nice if Tekken had a definitive set of system explaining guides for the series. Anyways, on to the meat of this post (and a nice link for you at the end).

The big gripe I hear about VF's throws is that you cannot, generally, throw a person out of an attack. I assume this means throwing your opponent during the execution of their attack. Generally, it doesn't work that way (though some exceptions exist in 4). Here are the common throw opportunities:
-When opponent is just standing or dashing there.
-After you block certain "throw-counterable" moves.
-Following (but not during) a stagger.
-When your opponent dodges.
-When your opponent is set up for a throw (flowcharting or pressuring your opponent into a high block or a dash or to a situation where you have advantage or interrupting your opponent's movement)

Traditionally, throws don't have an execution time (except catch throws). However, when blocking an attack, throws require a certain amount of frames to pass by before throwing is an option, the amount of frames depends on the game. A normal P+G high throw also has higher priority than a normal command high throw, if done at the same time. Beyond this, there doesn't seem to be any priority order among command throws. Another bit of info that I have been told recently (by one so knowledgeable) is that from the moment your opponent starts to duck from a standing position (excluding the use of low attacks), a high throw will still be possible within 10 frames.

I haven't heard this confirmed or anything, but I am sure you can throw your opponent out of attack recovery. So another situation where throwing is a nice option is when your opponent whiffs an attack. I do abuse this quite a bit, but you do need to have an idea where an attack is in recovery and where it is in execution.

So why do VF players make throwing look easy in these conditions? I think it's all in the flow of the game. It's been pointed out (by myself) many times, but I'll try to briefly summarize it here:
The flow of battle is based on a direct battle that is constantly forward for both players. At the beginning of the game, there is no initiative (generally--we are excluding outside factors right now). However, one side attacks, the other side defends. If the defender successfully defends, he has won the initiative and (theoretically) it is his right (benefit) to attack. Otherwise, he should defend if the attacker won the situation. The big exception is if the defender blocked a single punch, because the opponent then has a frame advantage (usually). The other part of the flow is the choice of defense and attack. Assuming you are the attacker (with the advantage), if your opponent is going to block high, you usually want to go for a high throw or a low attack. If your opponent is going to block low, you usually want to go for a mid attack (or low throw if you have some--one low throw is easy to escape, but not a bad option).
This is the sort of play traditionally emphasized in VF and usually occurs during direct conflicts. In such a case, you go for the throw when your opponent is open to it (he's going to block high) or when it is "given" to you (you blocked a throw-counterable attack and you are confident in nailing the throw--some attacks require fast reflexes to throw-counter).

On a side note, it's been written that if a throw is implemented the exact same moment of an attack (from standing position), the throw will win, but only if they were both in the same instant (frame). Otherwise, the execution frames of the attack will beat out (and whiff) the throw.

I hope this has helped (as opposed to confuse). But there are references you can look at that will describe the VF system as well as throw escaping. To prevent this post from becoming any longer than it is, I omitted throw escaping, but it's an important part of the game (throw prevention is what I usually use though).

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.zametex.pl/glc/>GLC's FAQ Archive</A>
This is where GLC has put up his unofficially official faqs. The VF General Faq series I highly recommend. Look up throwing in them and the important aspects should be written out there. GLC's faqs can also be found at Game Faqs. The archive will always have the most recent version, however.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://world.std.com/~opus/vf>RSW's VF Page</A>
I am pointing this site out because of the Option Select analysis that lies within the VF3 section. However, you shouldn't worry about Option Select for a good while. The applications and practicality of Option Select is debatable, but it's definitely not for beginners as it tends to clutter up input. For now, it's just interesting reading if you are a beginner. It is my belief that once you can handle normal throw systems and you are comfortable with the flow of VF, then you might want to consider Option Select. As long as it doesn't disrupt the way you play. There is also detailed movelists at this site, marking attacks that are throw counterable (though I recommend only focusing on attacks that have huge disadvantage times when blocked).

-Chanchai

 

If you're still awake after that Chanchai post,

In Tekken, throws seem to do several things that surprise me (as I'm used to the VF system) - 1. They snag people during slow executing moves (and sometimes during fast ones like a LP) and
2. They grab people just as they are halfway from standing to crouch. I have actually been thrown out of an attempted low punch in TK3. It makes me swear.

In VF2, there were no whiff throw animations, so as you start to duck, if the opponent is trying a throw, the throw just plain fails. I think this is because the game insterprets your button presses as a move first and then as a possible throw attempt. Others may argue this but in VF2 I -never- got the feeling I was thrown in the middle of crouching. This probably is because if the game says "hmm, he's pressing PG right when CreeD pressed down on the stick. He's trying a punch. Since CreeD is trying to crouch at the instant he's attempting a high attack, I will make CreeD autoduck." Autoduck is when you go instantly from standing to a crouch. It happens if someone tries a high attack just when you're starting a crouch.

ANYWAY. That digression leads to my next point. In VF3, there are whiff animations, but only maybe 5% of the throws have execution and the rest are instantaneous. Since trying a throw no longer results in a missed attack (such as a high punch) , this is what happens in VF3. You try to throw. CreeD tries to crouch at the same time. Since you're not whiffing an attack, and since I'm not yet halfway through my crouch animation, I get thrown. So in VF3 it's more like Tekken.

Finally, in VF4, instead of 5% of throws being catch throws, it's apparently 90-100%. I haven't played 4, but the upshot for you if you plan on jumping on the VF bandwagon soon is that VF4 throws will likely seem very, very familiar to you. Close to, if not identical to Tekken's throw system. The only thing you will have to worry about is this - when your opponent does a move in the game and you block it, can you counter with a throw? In VF2 this was a matter of doing the frame math. Do you have at least an 8-10 frame edge on the opponent after blocking his attack? Then you probably can throw in that situation. In 3 it's mostly the same, maybe a little more fuzzy because you have to take into account stuff like range (do you need to spend 5-10 frames dashing forward before you can toss the opponent? In VF2 this wasn't so much of an issue, most moves seemed to be either throwable or not. In 3 it seems like there are a zillion moves that are "possible throw counters." Maybe the stats say it's throwable, but experience proves otherwise. And maybe the sloping floors will screw the equation up).
In VF4, it will probably boil down to experience and whatever knowledge people pass on this board. You'll probably see FAQs soon outlining which "big gun" attacks can and cannot be throw countered.



<font color=blue size=11 face="Times New Roman">
CreeD </font>(possible sig)

 

matt...

you have always been vulnerable to high throws for a short period of time when you hold D from standing, in any version of vf. in vf2 it took 20 frames to fully crouch - and 10 frames of that you were considered standing, the rest crouching. there is no difference in vf3, except by 1 or 2 frames depending on the character. same thing in vf1, but i don't know the figures.

 

just wanted to add...

you can test it in vf2. have someone block an uncounterable move, even a really quick move, and then hold D. if they try to throw, you will get thrown - every single time. it's pretty visible, too.

you can try it on the cpu, too.

 

Talking about throwing...

I recall that in VF2 it was possible to do a back throw when a character does a spinning roundhouse kick.

E.g. Pai does K+G and Jacky can home in for a back clothesline while her back is turned.

Is this arcade only? [Something like Pai being able to reverse elbows in arcade but not at home]

<font color=black>Yowai...yowai sugimasu wa!</font color=black>

 

maybe my competition sucked more in VF2 than in VF3. I agree with what you're saying, in theory. I know there's that 10 frame window.. But in VF2, if it happened to me, I never noticed it, and I noticed after like my second game of VF3. Coincidence? Or Fuckup? You decide. DooDooDooo.



<font color=blue size=11 face="Times New Roman">
CreeD </font>(possible sig)

 

throwing during attacks

Ya know, if I remember, I think you can interrupt an attack at the right time with a throw in VF2. I've been dumping far too many tokens into the VF2 machine at the downtown Mpls. arcade (complete with worn-out joysticks), and I've been getting my VF2 game back.

The great thing about the game is the way you can read what your opponent is doing and respond accordingly. For a lot of attacks, especially roundhouse kicks and foot sweeps, you can see the start of the movement and then strike with a counterattack or throw. I think you can hit someone with a back throw when they're in the middle of a roundhouse kick. If there's a difference between the coin-op and Saturn versions, I don't know. I spent the lion's share of time with the Saturn on VF2.

Personally, this is what I love the most about this fighter; it's reliance on precision, control, and improvisation. To heck with all those damn combos, give me a real fight instead.

-----
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How the elephant got in my pajamas, I don't know."
-- Groucho Marx

 

Re: throwing during attacks

You can't throw during the execution of an attack in VF2, and I have yet to see a back throw after a K+G.. you sure you're not talking about VF3? You can counter some spinning attacks with side throws...


<font color=blue size=11 face="Times New Roman">
CreeD </font>(possible sig)

 

Arcade vs Sat VF2

Could the difference have been VF2 and VF2.1?
I don't know what the exact differences are, but couldn't that be t if you were mostly playing 2.1 at home?
IIRC, there weren't many VF2.1 machines outside Japan...

 

Re: Arcade vs Sat VF2

You know, that could've been it. But maybe I'm just confusing throws with attacks. It's been a while; maybe it was from the original Virtua Fighter, but I remember being able to throw an opponent just as they are beginning an attack. Maybe it wasn't interrupting the attack after all, but merely looking like it.

-----
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How the elephant got in my pajamas, I don't know."
-- Groucho Marx

 

Re: Arcade vs Sat VF2

i've never once heard of being able to back throw people after spinning moves in vf2 - although in vf3 you can easily side throw if you react quickly and throw.

in vf2, if a move and a throw are done at the same time by opposing players, the throw has priority. this window exists for only 1 frame, though. it's not visible and doesn't really affect gameplay that much.

otherwise, no moves are vulnerable to throws during execution time at all, with the exception of akira's bodycheck in vf1/2/3. he can't be thrown out of it in tb, though (save for his DLC bodycheck).

regarding 2.1 changes...following is a list of arcade changes. saturn vf2.1 is a total shit hack job. they left out some minor changes not listed there, and there is also a horrible bug in saturn vf2.1 - all moves connecting in a float do MC (+50 % damage). knee-kickflip does 135 points, kage's TFT, knee PPPK will KO instantly. this makes it almost totally unplayable, and it's a real shame.


Differences between 2.0 and 2.1
by Joji Suzuki

For the most part, changes in 2.1 affect the balance of power between characters.
However, there are all sorts of little interesting cosmetic details that
don't affect gameplay:

o The opening scene shows the characters in their alternate uniforms; also,
there is a small ".1" added to the title screen as well as above the time
during the fights.

CHANGES FOR ALL CHARACTERS:

1) No more multiple backward dashes. Technically, you can't buffer in
repeated back dashes, although forward dashes still work. In addition, if you
get hit while dashing back, you stagger, even if you G-canceled in time! It's
almost like having a recovery time for your back dash (no damage in this
case, however). This gives people the incentive to play more aggressively, in
your face. This was to prevent people from playing machi (see Glossary).

2) P,K is no longer a knock down move. This is a heavy blow for players
like Sarah or Kage. For Lau, P,P,K is not a knockdown move either, but only a
stagger. For Lau, Pai, Shun and Lion, the opponent staggers, but the recovery
of the PK is slow so it balances it out. After any PK hits, the two players
are almost at equal, but it depends: If the opponent is heavy, you are in
throwing range; if they are light, they will be waaay out of range. This
makes it very interesting how you approach the next move for both characters,
adding to "psychological warfare" strategies.

3) The stagger is much shorter, and a very simple struggle (hold G, move
stick from left to right twice or three times) will get you out of classics
like Kage's elbow-PK-sweep. This change is dramatic since there's no sure way
to add on damage. Again, this enhances psychological battle, meaning the game
is more difficult, but also more interesting.

4) It used to be that you would stop running at the 3.0m mark in front of
the opponent. Now, it's down to 1.5m. You can even run from the opening (when
you start the fight, you can run in to the 1.5 mark). Since the heavies can
throw at a distance of 1.5m, Jeff's Backbreaker can get you...

5) Before, the Kick could be retracted anywhere from 1 frame up to 12
(longer for slower kickers) frames after the kick came out. Now, the cancal
only takes place after 8 frames, which means you will always see the kick
before it retracts. Also, Akira and Jacky can no longer kick the opponent and
simultaneously cancel it at the 12th frame (also known as "Iai Geri").

6) When the opponent does a self-knock-down move (like Shun's b+K, or
Jeffry's butt), you can start the pounce much earlier, and the damage is 1.75
the regular damage. This means Shun, Jeff and Wolf cannot "earn" time by
waiting on the ground.

7) Minor counters are Damage X 1.25 + 2 (used to be Damage X 1.125 + 1).


CHARACTER SPECIFIC CHANGES:

Lau: PK, PPK, UpKnPK, UpKnPPK are all non-knockdown moves (DnKnPK,
however, IS a knockdown move). The opponent will stagger. Green and purple
Lau now have the same float, but the opponents float less in general. His
b,d+P+G is easier to execute.

Sarah: No more shun-puri. Her side hook kick's recovery time is 4 frames
longer, so as with Jacky, you can P,K counter (not sure about Jeff and Wolf).
Her turn-around-low spin can be countered in some conditions with a P,K. Her
leg slicer, like Jacky's, will knock-down if it hits as a minor counter.

Shun: His dodges are like Lion's (see below). His uppercut (d,d/f,f+P) is
easier to execute. He can also achieve the 9th dan (1st grade) in ranking
mode (it wasn't possible before because the computer didn't count the d+K+G).

Pai: The crouch throw gives her more time to attack, so the d+K+G can
combo after it. Her PK causes the opponent to stagger. Her b,d+P+G is easier
to execute.

Lion: His dodges are much more effective; they now move 45 degrees instead
of 30, and the opponent's moves do not correct their direction. If you dodged
at the beginning of a PPPK, the opponent will do PPPK in the same direction
while you move to the side. In addition, his d/f+G goes in one direction (it
used to alternate between left and right).

Jeffry: The machinegun knee does 80 points damage (up from 60), but since no pounce can connect the powerbomb and stomp is a better option. 1P and 2P Jeffs have the same pouncing distance (the 1P distance, not the 2P distance).

Kage: His super-roll can be done infinitely (used to be 3 times maximum).
A counter hit can be comboed into a flying kick (b,d,f+P, b,d,f+All). After
the 10-foot-toss, you used to be able to connect a rising knee and then a
PPPK; in 2.1, it only works when the opponent's energy is less than half.

Wolf: His f,d+K is easier to execute.

Jacky: His kickflip recovers 12 frames longer, so you can't add on a large
pounce, only a small pounce. His side hook kick recovers 4 frames longer, so
a PK will counter (not sure about Jeff and Wolf). If the leg slicer (d+K+G)
hits as a minor counter, it'll be a knockdown.

Akira: No more G-cancel kick that hits, as noted above. When executing the
SPoD, the stick must be in neutral when you initiate the move (it used to be
that the reverse bodycheck needed to start from neutral). This means no SPoD
from a crouch dash. No more reversal trap against Akira's high or low
reversal. The recovery of the dashing elbow is slightly longer if it misses.
His stumbling trip (b,d+P+G) is easier to execute.

 

Hey, don't beat on chanchai just cause he writes dissertations here
Just throwing in my two cents, I sorta liked the instant exicution of throws in VF, but the more I play with soul calibur, the more I like exicution times in throws. It adds a bit of realism, as well as adds another way to deal with a opponent throwing you. I know the main complaint from my two vf friends are that throws are instant in vf and thus "cheap"....

"Victory can be anticipated, but not assured" Sun-Tzu

 

you're right, I should leave chanchai alone, I used to post stuff much longer.
Instant throws are not quite necessary, but they're almost necessary. If it weren't for them, if throws executed slowly enough to be avoided on reflex, then it leads to horrible turtling, as in street fighter. Uncounterable attacks, when blocked, would almost really be uncounterable if you couldn't try for a throw.


<font color=blue size=11 face="Times New Roman">
CreeD </font>(possible sig)

 

In Tekken, throws seem to do several things that surprise me (as I'm used to the VF system) - 1. They snag people during slow executing moves (and sometimes during fast ones like a LP) and
2. They grab people just as they are halfway from standing to crouch. I have actually been thrown out of an attempted low punch in TK3. It makes me swear.

In Tekken Tag Tournament I had to learn about those high throws grabbing an opponent out of a low punch, the hard way! I was so used to VF where you could low punch to poke and set up stuff, that I tried that in TTT and kept getting thrown all over the place!

So does anyone know if the low punch is still able to be used to poke like that in VF4? From the video footage i've seen it looks like it still can be used that way.

-DMan-

 

If the version I played was any indication, low P can still be a whoring sort of tool. Great for interrupts. Though it was nice to see Kyasao knee his opponent during a low P, so I'm kind of curious about that.

-Chanchai

 

Yes, d+P still seems great to use.