Nelson...Need help!

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Guest, Nov 18, 1999.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I want to learn the Sun Di style. Can you help me? What are some of the basic moves that I need to be concerned with? I've trained with Lau to get use to the game, and I know that Shun shouldn't be a beginners' character, but that is who I want to learn and master. I need a new perspective when dealing with Shun, beacuse I think that he needs to be learned in a total different way from Lau...Would appriciate your in-put in the matter.
     
  2. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Just a word of advice...a lot of the veterans would love to help you newer guys, but, be a little reasonable. Ask specific questions. Maybe about a particular flow chart or move. General requests like "How should I play with XXX" is like asking us to write a novel, which most of us won't be doing any time soon.

    So instead of asking for the impossible, which most will probably just ignore, ask for smaller things and work your way up.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm not Nelson, but I think I can give you some advice concerning Shun anyway. Nelson can always pop in and comment on what I say.
    I really believe Shun should be played as unpredictably as possible, or at least appearing to be unpredictable. Play him as though you yourself are really drunk, or as though feigning being drunk trying to lure the opponent into complacency. Try to mentally get yourself into a temporary state of drunken chaotic thinking (but without alcohol or drugs -- just role play!). Learn all of his moves -- he has none that are really hard to do, just a few that require some very quick button presses. Then just use as many of them as you can. Do unpredictable things. To give an example: Sit down when you don't have to. And whenever you do sit, vary your next response seemingly at random: Sometimes lie down, sometimes rise up right away immediately after sitting, sometimes go into a handstand from sitting, sometimes do a d+K, sometimes do a flip over kick, sometimes take a drink, sometimes even just keep sitting there (just be careful if the opponent is too close; among other things, Shun can be low thrown while sitting).
    Just keep doing things to confuse your opponent. But most of all, have fun.
    There are some moves that are more frequently useful than others. Use the E button to dodge a lot, especially by using his special uf+E or ub+E or b+E dodges. One of Shun's most useful attacks, I believe, is his low kick. It is probably the best low kick in the game. It is so good, that many players consider it cheesy to "overuse" it. I've literally seen a Shun player win a match using just this attack only. At level 1, you should use it without worrying about its cheesiness. Just don't get so used to it that you become predictable or so that you end up becoming too dependent on it and don't learn many other techniques.
    At level 1, Shun's db+K+G can be very powerful, especially against a level 1 opponent who is trying to close the distance with Shun. Shun's db+K and its various continuations (db+KG; db+KK; db+KKG) are also useful. Surprisingly, his f+K+E is very effective as well. Don't forget to pounce on a fallen opponent if you get the chance.
    His best combo starter is probably his df>f+P chouwan (the > symbol here means go smoothly and quickly from df to f, without going back to neutral). I've observed, though, that many beginners have a little trouble doing the joystick motion properly (it's a bit unusual for VF3), and they find it hard to get out the chouwan consistently (not a problem of course for someone at Nelson's level). If you encounter this problem, practice should take care of it. (You should find it easier to do than Lau's double palm!) Shun's old man palm (go from a crouch to f+P, or do DF+P) is another useful level 1 move. If you are near the end of the round and are winning, and want to keep your opponent away, b+K+G is very useful (just make sure you don't back out of the ring). Shun's b+K is also a good general move against level 1 players (though some may disagree with this).
    Shun gets stronger (by doing more damage and acquiring more moves and combos) as he gets drunker (by accumulating drunk points). Know the moves that give you drunk points. His P+G throw gives 5 drunk points. He has two other throws that give them as well, but don't worry too much about them. One is his back throw, the other is b+P+G with your opponent's back to the wall. At level 1, until your opponents learn throw escapes, you should mainly just use his P+G throw if you get a throw opportunity, in order to get more drunk points. But do use his other throws at times as well -- to learn and practice them, to have more fun, and to remain in an unpredictable frame of mind (after you get 40 points, getter drunker doesn't matter anymore, since that's the maximum amount Shun can get). His f+P+K attack gives 5 points as well, and is a good level 1 attack in any case. Other ways to get drunk points are to press d+P+K+G (1 point) or to press P+K+G while sitting (3 points). Be careful using these last two when your opponent is within attacking distance.
    If you get 5 drunk points, there is a fun combo you can try, that some people seem to like. It's b,b+P (which causes Shun to turn around), followed by P+G (which gives Shun a throw that he executes from his back-turned position); a bit of timing is required.
    Lastly, his drunken sweeps can be very effective at level 1. With 1 drunk point, you can get one drunken sweep by doing d+P+K; with 6 drunk points, you can do two consecutive drunken sweeps -- d+P+KK (hold down)--, and with 7 points, you can do three drunken sweeps [d+P+KKK -- again hold down].

    This should get you started.
    Regards, Imashroom
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sorry Mighty One...

    Hey, I ain't trying to be impossible...Did you see the part were I said basics? I don't need a book, just something to get started, thus the word basics. Meaning what are some of the moves that I should be concerned with since I just started using the character, and I'm not familiar with it. If you and your "VF friends" think that is asking to much then forgive O.K. That is alright I'll just keep practicing. But thanks Imashroom! I appriciate it.

    M. Wong
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    You were asking for a Step 1 guide--essential moves and a few words on what "Shun Di style" is.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  6. ghetto-SHUN

    ghetto-SHUN Well-Known Member

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    If shun is to be played effectively you have to streamline him do to the fact that he has so many moves that are almost useless when going against opponents at a high level. My advice to you would be to concentrate on these moves, the chuwon,low kick for defensive purposes, d/b kk for some confusion and your normal punches. It may sound boring but these are the weapons you might find yourself doing the most later on. It's good to learn how to incorperate them from the beginning. At the same time experiment with your own flowcharts , keeping in mind that shun is best played a bit defensively to allow you time to get drinks in. I hope this helps a bit. If you want any more input just ask.
    Good luck.
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    One more thing: among all the moves that ghetto-Shun listed an opponent can actually block low with great safety. Use the sidekick or d/f+P+K,P,K (or an excerpt of it) to harass crouching opponents.

    Don't forget to drink as well.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    "One more thing: among all the moves that ghetto-Shun listed an opponent can actually block low with great safety."
    ice-9: Do the moves Imashroom listed suffer from this? Are they a good set too?

    " Use the sidekick or d/f+P+K,P,K (or an excerpt of it) to harass crouching opponents."
    ice-9: do you mean df+P,P+K,K?

    "Don't forget to drink as well."
    ice-9: I think 'shroom already pointed this out.

    Wolfstudent
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    "One more thing: among all the moves that ghetto-Shun listed an opponent can actually block low with great safety."
    ice-9: Do the moves Imashroom listed suffer from this? Are they a good set too?


    f+K+E hits middle, that's it I think (heh heh, I skimmed his novel).

    " Use the sidekick or d/f+P+K,P,K (or an excerpt of it) to harass crouching opponents."
    ice-9: do you mean df+P,P+K,K?


    Doh! Yup.

    "Don't forget to drink as well."
    ice-9: I think 'shroom already pointed this out.


    It's so important I had to say it again. /images/icons/wink.gif

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    ::"One more thing: among all the moves that ghetto-Shun listed an opponent can actually block low with great safety."::
    ::ice-9: Do the moves Imashroom listed suffer from this? Are they a good set too?::
    ::f+K+E hits middle, that's it I think (heh heh, I skimmed his novel).::

    ice-9: Actually several of the moves I listed hit mid-level. E.g, the chouwan (but does no actual damage by itself vs a crouching guarder); b+K; b+K+G; the old man palm; and f+P+K are all mid-level attacks. The only problem with your suggested df+PP+KK is that 8 DP is required for either of the last two parts of the canned combo to come out. None of my selected mid-level attacks require extra DP.
    Imashroom
     
  11. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    b+K; b+K+G; the old man palm; and f+P+K are all mid-level attacks.

    None of these (except for the f+P+K of course, which is essential for all levels of players) moves are exactly what I would call staple mid-level attacks for Shun...especially not for the Step 1 player. The sidekick is probably a better choice if you know the opponent will crouch.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    ::b+K; b+K+G; the old man palm; and f+P+K are all mid-level attacks.
    None of these (except for the f+P+K of course, which is essential for all levels of players) moves are exactly what I would call staple mid-level attacks for Shun...especially not for the Step 1 player. The sidekick is probably a better choice if you know the opponent will crouch.::
    ::ice-9 | Sennin::

    ice-9: As always, I have great respect for your insight into the game. My comment didn't address the issue of being "staple." I read your post as saying that none of the attacks I suggested could be used against a low blocker except f+K+E; in other words, that was the only mid-level attack I was suggesting. If I misunderstood, I apologize -- my intent was to clarify not to demean your views.
    As for being staple, I believe there is no black or white answer to what constitutes a staple level 1 attack. This is a gray area open to much interpretation. Actually, I advised Mr. Wong to use all of Shun's moves, even at level 1, to remain unpredictable and to learn their pluses and minuses. I was just suggesting a few he might want to consider using a bit more often than others. Upon reflection, I think mentioning the sidekick as a good tool versus crouchers would have been a good idea. I am a bit curious why Nelson didn't mention it as well. I also think it mildly odd that you feel my choices weren't good level 1 staple attacks, but that you thought the df+PP+KK combo was. It's actually quite hard for a level 1 player to use the drop kick in that combo effectively -- it's even a bit difficult to make it come out. What am I basing this on? I've been training a lot of level 1 players lately, and observing them. In particular, my daughter has become very adept with Shun, and I based my suggestions a lot on what I've seen her (and other level 1 players) do and have trouble with. Oh, and the philosophy about how to think while playing Shun was inspired by Jo Shun's philosophy for VF2 Shun, which I think still holds for VF3 Shun. It's the mind-set I've always used when playing VF3 Shun.
    Regards, Imashroom
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>


    I also think it mildly odd that you feel my choices weren't good level 1 staple attacks, but that you thought the df+PP+KK combo was. It's actually quite hard for a level 1 player to use the drop kick in that combo effectively -- it's even a bit difficult to make it come out.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Becuz, once you get enuf drink for this move, it is pretty safe (100% safe i will say for middle lvl players). The point of this move is not to do the last kick every time, only do it to show/scare your oppt into being defensive after d/f+P,P+K, once you did that, you will open up another whole new flow with d/f+P,P+K. Besides, in a tide situation the last kick often caught deseperate oppts, even if it misses Shun will fall on the ground, wasting more time thus making it even harder for oppts to catch on. However, in higher lvl of play, players will start to attack Shun if Shun delay his last kick, or throw shun right away after blocking shun's last kick. The reason is in tb Shun has became vulnerable before he completely fall on the ground.

    As for the sidekick vs lunging fist(oldman palm), both move are throw counterable, but sidekick becomes not throw counterable after 15(?) drinks. And sidekick will give crouching oppt a big stagger(in fact it is the only move for shun to stagger his oppts), therefore opening more possiblities for more dmg. Oldman palm knocks down oppt right away, but allows pounce (or 3 little sweeps), prolly the better choice if you need guranteed dmg right away. I've seen Nelson using both effectively, it is kind of pointless to argue which is better.
     
  14. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...

    imashroom, no problems, I have abnormally thick skin and don't get offended easily. /images/icons/smile.gif The request for Shun advice was made by someone interested in beginning with Shun, so I just assumed he was asking for Step 1 advice. I play Shun a little bit, and I actually don't use the majority of his moves--my Shun is pretty boring! You don't really need to use all his moves to be effective.

    Mike mentioned some of the sidekick's merits already, but I think one major advantage in choosing d/f+K versus D,f+P is familiarity. D,f+P seems like a unique move; there's really no other move that's quite like it. The sidekick, however, is a middle attack that most characters have--Step 1 players should be able to learn how to use this move and familiarize themselves with it much more quickly than D,f+P.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sorry Mighty One...II

    You assumed? Yet you tell M. Wong that he was asking for a Step 1 guide while he was asking for basic moves to start with. Then you attack Imashroom. Why is this? Do you like to put people down, that maybe are not as good as you are? Frankly I hope that you give a little of constructive advice, instead of getting your "2 cents in". A concerned VF fan.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Sorry Mighty One...II

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>


    Yet you tell M. Wong that he was asking for a Step 1 guide while he was asking for basic moves to start with

    <hr></blockquote>

    I thought step 1 = basic moves to start with ^^;

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Then you attack Imashroom

    <hr></blockquote>

    Hah? i don't see any thing offensive from Ice's response, perhaps he just forgot to put some web-board special sugar coating on his msgs heheh. And actually, Ice has a pretty good Shun, which mainly use low kick, PP rush, plus some basic chou-wan combos from the switch throw,and "JiJi Cyclone". Eventhough i suspect this is not the right way to play Shun (^^) but he still manages to win with him.

    VF is a very flexible game, you can play Shun with ICE's "boxer" style, or Nelson's complete "ghetto" style ^^;, or even the infamous Dragon Jiji's "hardcore machi" style. As long as it works, nothing is "wrong" or "biased".

    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

    Do you like to put people down, that maybe are not as good as you are? Frankly I hope that you give a little of constructive advice, instead of getting your "2 cents in". A concerned VF fan.

    <hr></blockquote>

    now where does that come from ? seriously we are no gamest writers who get pay for their articles. And VF is a very deep game, there is no way even for a complete article about beginner advice to be only 1 "webboard" msg long. (Just read the pages at the back of Act 1, if you translate those it is prolly 4-6 pages for each character). Therefore a "2 cents" syle msgs seem to be more practical, where people can put in their thoughts when they see them not mentioned. Isn't that what this msg board is for?

    Finally my advice for the Shun beginner players, "be creative". It is important for every character but especially true for Shun.
    And secondly, "annoy your oppt as much as you can", eg: use low kick atleast 10 time each match, sit down or run away when time is running out and you are winning, land a few butt throw or other embarassing moves on your oppt. I believe Shun's game is concentrated not on "boxing" but "luring". The more your oppt is mad at you the easier they are to be manipulate.
     
  17. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    This mighty one is confused...

    Sorry, I reread the thread and didn't know how you got the impression I was "attacking" imashroom. Imashroom, if you did feel I was attacking you, then I apologize as I certainly wasn't; I appreciate all that you have contributed to this board and your impressive response to M. Wong's request for advice. Ever since the Chicago Gathering, I have somehow felt responsible for Shun and thus felt compelled to contribute my own 2 cents. I have maintained that Shun doesn't have to be machi to be effective--hopefully my own Shun can attest to this, and if it doesn't, a trip to Tokyo should be able to convince any one.

    And lastly, M. Wong had asked for basic moves and a "good" style for playing Shun Di. This IS essentially a Step 1 guide, minus the combos.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: This mighty one is confused...

    It is all good guys. I just want to learn. Ice is right, personally I think Shun is very hard to learn, I'm still practicing...but I've stuck with Lau and keep improving as I practice almost everyday...Basically what I'm saying is, when I post I would like everyone to jump in and speak their 2 cents. We also learn by critisim. In all I thank everyone for chipping in.

    --M. Wong--
     

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