New VFer asking about low punch

Hey all, I come from a pretty extensive soul calibur experience, so I felt it was about time to move onto an even more technical game. Although SC2 is still a ton of fun!! =P

It's unfortunate that both VF5 and SC3 are not very popular in arcades. That being said, I've gone ahead and purchased VF5 from ebay and I'm awaiting for it to come in.

In the mean time, I've downloaded the 360 demo version and started playing around with some friends. We found that WC P (2p) has insane priority, and just constantly abusing the move doesn't put you at disadvantage even off block. We couldn't find a way to counter it (sometimes 6P would work) without having to dash back from it.

Any thoughts? Although we're still new to the game (1 night of play), WC P is a generic move that all characters can abuse. The WC P (abuse), throw, and PPP mixup is more than enough for us to handle right now. Any thoughts as to what we're doing wrong?

 

thanks.

WC -> While crouched, so .. low punch would be the same. I'm not sure of the naming conventions here. But hmm, I've tried to out punch my opponent off the low punch, but it's just hard. It doesn't always happen. I'll try 66P though from standing I'm going to assume, otherwise I'll most likely be at frame disadvantage coming from crouch.

 

This is probably the first hurdle everyone runs into in this game, so don't be surprised. There's many ways to beat low punches, though, you just need to learn the system.

First note that low punches are unique in that they can be blocked while standing or crouching, unlike other lows that can only be blocked while crouching. The basic thing to do after blocking a low punch is to attack with a 14 frame or faster mid. For most of the cast, 6P is a 14-frame mid. There are a few exceptions... lei-fei/akira get 66P instead, for example. Upon blocking a low punch, a 14-frame mid will always beat another low punch. Evades are also useful to learn for this... DM > P+K or OM P are both great for evading a low punch and punishing, and if you can evade and use a launcher rather than those canned moves you can often still beat a low punch, and deal some rather serious damage.

The other thing worth noting is that if your low punch hits, you have advantage, so while another low punch will often work... you can get a lot more damage by following up with your own 14-frame mid instead of a second low punch. Learn to low punch only once, hit check it, and then either block if the punch was blocked, or attack/throw if the punch connected. It's one of the most basic guessing games in VF, and should really open up the game for you once that becomes automatic.

Also: check the command lists on this site for any frame data you're interested in... it'll tell you exactly how much disadvantage/advantage you get upon being hit by or blocking any move, including low punches.

 

Online sometimes due to lag the elbow won't work, and the best option is to LP back. That's only usually on really bad connections though.

 

2p is -5 on block and everymove 17 frames and faster will beat a 2nd 2p.

 

Which is why online makes me want to cut myself sometimes. Everytime I block /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and try to retaliate with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif(Vanessa) which if I'm not mistaken is 17 frames I get beat out. Thankfully regular old /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (15 frames) works a lot more for decent damage on counterhit.

.../forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

Less than a third of a second to react is an advantage? Dear God this game is not for me...

 

Most fighting games require reactions at about that speed, if a game is running at 60fps then 1/3 second = 20 frames. Most fast moves in any fighting game are much faster than that. You don't have to be a machine, you just have to get used to seeing the result of a low punch quickly, whether it's blocked or hit.

But yeah to summarize, if you block a low punch, retaliate with a quick mid. If you're hit by one, most likely a mid/throw mixup is coming so evade/throw escape, or respond based on opponent's tendencies.

 

Yeah, socc... it's not like by reactions that fast we mean some long conscious thought process. Just get fuzzy and fast mid committed to muscle memory, and learn as soon as you see a low punch (or even predict a low punch), you know that you need to use one of those two options. The only "reaction", is deciding which option to use. It sounds a lot harder than it actually is, just takes a while to get it to be automatic... I've found myself sometimes missing followup combos and stuff cause the reactions become so mindless that I can input moves before the frame buffer starts.

 

Well, you're not really "reacting", as if it's completely out of nowhere. It's more like you're expecting it to happen as soon as you see the first low punch, so you guard, retaliate. So technically you know what to do as soon as you see the first low punch, which is > 1/3 of a second.

 

dont worry, its actually not that bad.

after the move hits both you and your opponent go through a bit of recovery. for the attacker that is something like pulling his hand/foot/whatever back and for the opponent that could be the block or hit stun, this takes some time in wich you'll be able to identify what happened and decide what to do next. the advantage or disadvantage is determined by who recovers first.

in other words, if you are at +7 that doesnt mean you only have 7 frames to decide. you'll identify the situation, for example an elbow landing on counterhit and you'll be able to decide on your next action before the first frame of that advantage comes in.

 

2P is one of the only answer to retaliate vs High attacks. Given that many High attacks are very risky to stand and guard due to the disadvantage it leaves you within. Many High attacks sacrifice hit chance but have really great properties like damage, speed, flop/crumbles or advantage.

An simple example would be in response to Lau's PPP2K and PPP4K.
To avoid the corresponding guessing game. 2P in reply after blocking the first attack of Lau is a fairly solid tactic. Given Lau's attack pattern is generally "Mid > High > X"

That being said its important to see each move and sequence with its hit properties, ie:
-High, Mid, Low
-Linear, Half Circular (front, back), Full circular
-Punch, Kick, Elbow, Knee, Other
-Special


Its important to know how to use it and also how to counter 2P. Its one of the core skills when learning your character and VF in general.

 

Actually, in this particular case of beating repeated /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif with a 17 frame mid, it is that bad.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is 30 frames total - 12 frames exe = 18 frames between when you block that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and when you need to have started inputting your 17 frame knee or whatever. You can shave this down a little bit if you're reacting to the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif coming out, rather than when you actually block it, but still . . . the entire move starts and finishes in half a second.

Punishing big moves on guard is a lot easier, reaction-time wise, than punishing repeated /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

 

yea you're right about the 17f attack, timing is strict. but retaliating with an elbow or a 2p of yourself isn't that hard really.

 

ehh =P

Yea. 2P issue sovled =P Thanks everyone.

My EX2 came in, and the full version. The manual actually helped, and playing around the with the dojo.
The demo restricts to like Akira, Sarah and Blaze so it was hard to pull moves out without having no knowledge of the system.

Having said that, damn... this game is intense.
I don't know what character to play..!! =p

It's great to see that every character is close to balanced though. I was watching Reno's movies in the TV section.

Is there a tier list, it appeared as though everyone was playing whomever they wanted.

 

You got it. Try every character out and see whichever you would want to stick to. It would also help you gain knowledge of every character that will surely help down the road with whomever you pick later. Goodluck and have fun!

 

If you react fast and an opponent doesn't hit check you can punish 2P spammers very hard.

I always go for a knee with my jeff after blocked 2P. It's almost 50% life bar punishment.

 

There is a tier list but it is the subject of many disagreements on VFDC. The game is very, very balanced and any character can defeat any other. Some of the characters have a slight edge (many noobs and players in general complain about Lei Fei) but it is not large at all. Pick whoever you like playing, if you get good you will be able to handle anyone in the game...

 

Yea a well balanced game, I haven't played it enough to debate if it's better balanced than some of the other fighters I've played, but it's definitely definitely up there.

We had a tourney yesterday and it was pretty successful. 2Ps were punished (not that well.. lol but for the most part they were countered) and every character was able to win.

With noobs, yea I could see lei fei being overpowered, he's more masher friendly than some of the other characters.