news on VF4

From igndc:

<blockquote>December 2, 1999

In a recent interview with the Japanese press, Yu Suzuki was asked how the development of Shenmue was coming along. Basically, the mastermind behind AM2 was keen to stress how much he and his team have learned over the past year working on the game, including new techniques involving realistic facial and body movement.

Although that's hardly groundbreaking news, Suzuki did let slip that he plans to use these tricks for a new project which will be out before chapter two of Shenmue. And guess what? It's a fighting game, which has a "4" in its title! No prizes for guessing which game this is, and if you really don't know, we suggest you leave this site immediately and come back after you've taken a course in Sega history!

Seriously though, we all knew Virtua Fighter 4's announcement was inevitable, so it's only a matter of time before Sega decided to spill the beans on this one. We'll keep you posted on the situation.

-- Matthew Langan, IGNDC</blockquote>

 

sweet

 

This is a clearer version of the story, from Daily Radar.

Sega's Yu Suzuki has told Japanese journalists that he is currently working on a new fighting game that will have the number "four" in the title. Although he said little more than this, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together, and add the words Virtua Fighter.
It is some way from the "official" confirmation of Virtua Fighter 4 that gamers are still waiting for, but it is at least a very heavy hint. Of great interest was the time scale Suzuki-san offered. According to what he told interviewers, the game should be ready for release sometime between Shenmue chapters one and two. With the first chapter due on Dec. 29, the time scale for Virtua Fighter 4 -- if it is indeed the fighter alluded to -- is a lot sooner than expected.

IGNDC reports that Yu Suzuki dropped the nugget of information while talking about his AM2 studio and the facial and body movement technology the developer is implementing in the imminent Shenmue.

A word of warning though--this article from Daily Radar was based from the story published in IGNDC, and it's possible that news became a bit convoluted in the process. Also, I'm not sure if the IGNDC article was first hand, or if it was itself based on the story originally published in Dreamcast-HQ.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

I dont think it was a slip. Its like "newsflash! the most lucrative arcade series for sega is getting another sequel that we all knew was coming!" Yu said from the get-go there will be 5 vfs, so it shouldn't come as a suprise that 4's coming, eventually. I wonder just how bored IGN sites have to be to fabricate common knowledge into "EXCLUSIVE NEWS FLASH"s.

Dodee.

 

Well, there is one thing that I considered quite significant about the news article, that VF4 is supposed to be released after Yokosuka but before Hong Kong. If you recall, the HK chapter (before all Yokosuka delays) was supposed to be released this Christmas, so it's not inconceivable to expect the chapter to be done sometime mid-2000, especially since a lot of the environments in the city have been developed. All this means that VF4 could well pop up in the former half of 2000, according to this article.

I personally doubt that, since it would 1) imply that VF4 will be on Naomi or Hikaru, and 2) the game would be terribly unhyped considering the stature of the franchise in Japan.

BTW, I e-mailed the author Matthew Langan, who claims the source of the article was from a friend in Japan. Take that as you may.

Neogamer, any comments?

ice-9 | Sennin

 

I do think this is kinda interesting. More than once I've been sitting around with other players, the topic of VF4 will come up, and the big question is "how will they improve the game system?!?" because: a) with tb it's already quite refined and b) how can they add new features that will improve the game but not overburden it with complexity? there comes a time when you just don't want to learn anymore. with vf3, korean stepping, G|E|R-[D]TE has been just about the limit for me, ie I haven't mastered the korean step and I sure as hell can't G-DTE or even G-TE, partly because I don't have a dc to practice on, partly because I don't care enough.

so because we couldn't figure out what features they could add to vf that would actually improve the game, we doubted whether AM2 would actually come out with VF4 and 5, and we certainly didn't expect yu suzuki to be working on VF4 himself. So I wonder what he has in mind, aside from a visual improvement.

 

You know peter, I was thinking the very exact same thing. I've also come to realize though that one distinguishing characteristic about VF3's game design is that depth is layered--if you can see the depth, then the game becomes that much more interesting (especially if both you and the opponent can take advantage of it), but if you're a beginner then the feature just becomes a constant and not a variable.

Terrain is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. To a beginner, angulation won't matter all that much, except that some moves seem to act differently. But to a player who knows a bit about the angulation system in VF3, it presents another aspect of strategy. Stances, option select escapes, uramawari, etc. all fall under this category.

My thought is that VF4 will consist more of this sort of layered depth. There will be more variables of strategy that players can think about and concern with, but they are not necessarily essential in order to enjoy the game and play at a competent level.

And finally, one thing that I would be very interested to see in VF is two escape modes. 1) The VF3 escape system with a few minor modifications to make k-stepping and dodglets easier to perform (especially with special dodges that require moving into the screen on the player's open side). 2) The 3D movement system in DOA2, which is free moving but a lot slower than SC. Basically, this movement is for more controlled positioning while the opponent is on the ground (or being chicken), but it's not fast enough to be used while in combat or extended machi. In fact, it should be slow enough that a player can E (from the VF3 system) towards the opponent much faster than the opponent can back away. Perhaps a way to access this would be by holding down E and using the joystick to control which direction you wish the character to move. So to access the first escape system, tap E, and to access the latter system, hold E.

I also think this would reflect a real martial arts situation more accurately than other fighting games. In most hand to hand fights, once blows are exchanged you rarely see opponents doing much z-axis movement aside from dodging just enough to avoid an opponent's attack. But when the opponent is down or far away, fighters often move around in order to gain an advantage in their surroundings. Admittedly, this can already be done in VF3 but it is not beginner-friendly and not as accurate or flexible as the sort of system presented in DOA2. Also, this will allow AM2 to create more complex environments without as much fear of limited movement.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

There are lots of ways I could see VF4 advancing. Some examples:
1. Pai's inashi is a hint that in VF4 there may be more deflecting moves.
2. There may be attacks that you can make while lying (and remaining) on the ground.
3. Right now there are special attacks that can be made when one's back is to the enemy, but there are no special attacks that are limited to when your side is to the enemy. This could lead to some interesting anti-dodge attacks -- opponent dodges to your side, you've yomied this and use special side attack.
4. There is room to develop a more complex hit level system, instead of the three tiered low, high, mid-level structure.
5. Side thought: Everyone seems to be assuming VF4 will be an arcade game. What if it's made into a Dreamcast game with online capability? And what if you could then really play a team battle, with you and a partner against an opposing team?
6. As ice-9 indicates, there is the possibility of greater expansion of 3-D movement.
7. More interactive environments. You may have to be concerned about more than just your ring position relative to a slope, wall, or ring edge.
8. Injuries can reduce effectiveness. You may have to learn to fight with an injured arm. There might even be a way to fake an injury, luring your opponent into attacking.
9. There might be an expanded grappling system.
10. Fatigue might be introduced as a combat factor.
11. We might have tripping attacks. No real injury -- just knocks you down.
12. There might be an expansion of staggering into attacks that leave you disoriented for a while. More so than Taka's opening cat's trick.
And so on.
Imashroom

 

On the more complex level hit system, one suggestion would be DOA2's middle level punch and middle kick. However, I would prefer more jumping attacks and a jump attack reversal.

Its hard to imagine how much more can they improve vf.

 

::3. Right now there are special attacks that can be made when one's back is to the enemy, but there are no special attacks that are limited to when your side is to the enemy. This could lead to some interesting anti-dodge attacks -- opponent dodges to your side, you've yomied this and use special side attack.::
>Well, everyone has the dodging sidekick already, and circular attacks work well aginst dodging opponents. So VF3 already has the same functionality that you're proposing, but I wouldn't mine a bit more flare and utility. The plain P+E and K+E look so boring and, well, useless?>

I was thinking in terms of attacks that can only come out when your side is to the opponent. They would whiff if your opponent was in front/behind you, but would do big damage if you caught the opponent at your side.

::4. There is room to develop a more complex hit level system, instead of the three tiered low, high, mid-level structure.::
>Care to elaborate on this?>

Well, one possibility is to do what is already done to some extent with certain damage modifiers -- you can divide the body into a few more main areas such as head, chest, abdomen, arms, upper legs, and lower legs, or something similar.

::7. More interactive environments. You may have to be concerned about more than just your ring position relative to a slope, wall, or ring edge.::
>Such as?>

Maybe slick/slippery spots/areas (such as icy or oily spots), or other ways to vary traction, but in small enough areas so that one of the characters could, for instance, be on a slippery spot, and the other isn't. Perhaps a waterfall that knocks you down if you are pushed into it. Maybe holes in the middle of the ring (middle of the ring ringouts --- we could call them ringins!). Or obstacles that you could trip over or be knocked over. How about a ledge you could jump off and land on an opponent's head or fallen body? Maybe a fire to avoid that could damage you. The only limits to this are the developer's imagination.

>but yeah, maybe having different types of "bounces" off various objects in the terrain could add a little to the game.>

Some walls could be rubbery, allowing real bounce attacks, or less damage if you get knocked into one (as opposed to being thrown into a solid wall). Borrowing a bit from DOA2, you might be able to throw someone through a glass window.

>What I wouldn't welcome is the ability to pick up objects and use them in battle. Yech!>

Agreed!

::10. Fatigue might be introduced as a combat factor.::
>I wouldn't like this at all. Why would you want to punish an attacker? I would rather see something which punished/discouraged chicken play.>

Well then how about the opposite. You gain strength from certain attacks, similar to the way Shun gets DP?
One thing I forgot to mention. Pai's rarely used P+G high kick reversal reversal, might get expanded into a bunch of new reversal reversal attacks (or should I say attacks that reverse a reversal).
I also think double throw escapes will be eliminated, just like double option attacks got drastically reduced from VF2 to VF3. And I expect crouch dashing to require a simple df+E or df,DF input. I think complexity will come more from how you use moves/techniques, rather than how hard it is to input a move/technique. Don't be surprised for example, if Akira gets a "normal" knee and the DLC is removed and replaced with some method of chaining together 3 or so moves of your choice; what was called in the VF2 days, a roll-your-own combo. The chaining might even increase the effect of the individual attacks that are being chained, but at the expense of some trade-off (such as longer recovery or ending up in an awkward position if the attack misses).
Cheers, Imashroom

 

Imashroom, I love most of your ideas and the ones about the environment is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "layered depth". But you know what that means right? This will be impossible to do faithfully on a Naomi.

For a true leap, VF4 will have to belong on Model 4. Or Naomi 2 at least.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Hmm... Some Things I'd like to see in VF4...

Well, I mentioned way back in a thread I created about the Soundtrack. Basically, music that seems to suit the region, but somehow bring intensity or at least drama to the battleground....

Taunts, I personally would love to see taunts in the game. As useless as they are, I think they're a fun way of communicating certain messages /images/icons/smile.gif. Of course, I know the experts and advanced players do their own taunting by doing incomplete combos or cheezy moves (Jeffry's b,f, f+P+K = taunt. Pai's running jump Kick = taunt. /images/icons/crazy.gif).... But I don't think the addition of some taunt would be bad.... Not that I would devote a button to it (that's be stupid), but it could be like SF with the start button functioning as the taunt.

Hmm... if VF4 is very traditional, it will probably add 2 characters (though I am satisfied with the current cast as they balance each other out well imo)... Well, in VF2, Yu said it was a Chinese theme. And VF3 I think it's safe to assume it was a Japanese theme... So with VF4? Is there even a theme? I guess I can only think of a kick theme... Such as a Tae Kwon Do practitioner (but not masher friendly like Hwaorang, I like him in Tekken, but I don't think he suits VF)... However, I'm sure Yu could design a great system for such a character. Complex enough kicks that focus on some speed, some combinations that might even require proper control. Straight forward punches, ridgehands, hard-style blocks. Quick on his feet (and is programmed with enhanced Korean-step abilities... he is Korean anyways isn't he? Not to be meant as a pun, as it may have been, but a lot of TKD practitioners like the footwork). Perhaps even combine this character's style with some Hapkido and you have a good contender. Balancing this type character might be difficult if the goal is to not have the character end up like Sarah or take away her good aspects.

The other character I can picture a move towards is Kickboxing... Perhaps western Kickboxing, but I would prefer a Muay Thai style. I wouldn't even mind if it was a european Muay Thai practitioner (there are a lot of those, and I say this despite myself being Thai). Close in fighting would be the forte of this character. Perhaps he could even counter (to a minor degree) with certain kicks. Basically not cause the opponent to fly like a MC, but cause the opponent to stagger in leg to leg wars. Range might even be important to discriminate the jabs and elbows, but f+P just for elbows is fine.

I see lots of room for other characters, and I trust and have faith in Yu's designing abilities (as I believe most people here do as well /images/icons/smile.gif). So I'm sure Yu will find the right set of new characters and keep a good balance. The only issue I worry about is that whole quantity vs. quality issue. I honestly think VF characters have always been designed with great quality and focus. And Namco tends to have a ton of characters. I'm not saying any of those characters are of low quality, just that I would personally rather have a total of 10 highly developed characters than 50 decently or barely above average developed characters. I am referring to gameplay wise of course. However, for mainstream America, quantity is more popular than quality. However, I don't thin Yu has to worry about it since Japan already has that wonderful following of VF /images/icons/cool.gif.

Oh yeah, I think this is a definite must and many before me have stated it even though I think it's implied within most VF gamers. More story. Sure, stories seem to be lame for most fighters (at least they're getting better than what they were in the past), and the VF storyline isn't really anything to write a full-sized novel about (IMO). But I'm sure they can work something in there. At least have a resolution to each character (ending). Of couse I wouldn't want anything as stupid as a Tobal no. 1 ending /images/icons/crazy.gif.

As far as environments go, i like VF3tb's a lot. But to advance it, I would like Props... Not pick up props, but more level design props... This would be hard to design properly imo... To an extent you would want distinguishable props to be kept at a minimum because gameplay gets sacrificed and we end up with a messy battleground. Basically battlegrounds are open, but a few things here and there could help. Of course, such things would also imply a full-control 3d movement system. Which I personally like Ice's post about. Basically the same evade system as before (I love VF3tb's evade system, by far the best in my book), but figuring a way to get it so holding evade and moving around works as well. The issue at hand for me, is that there is somewhere an optimal timing for how long after holding the evade button this would work.... Would it be like SC where the character would evade and then have free movement? I wouldn't mind that. I don't want it to be an over-riding factor in the game, just something for convenience but also could be used properly.

I honestly like DoA2's way of telling the player about counter hits. However, I personally wouldn't want messages poppin up in VF4.

Anyways, millions of things I could say, but too little time and I gotta go... I know it was a long post anyways... I'm just a person that likes to insert details in message board posts and messaging (IM, ICQ).

-Chanchai

 

Finally, the days has come.We are waiting for it for so long, New version, new competition, that is the time to tell people to hold tournment,not after 3 years, waiting everybody almost wait ,then tell people he/she is the best, best is just a word, win should be win by Honour.

JoShun(V.F.I.C)

 

Another thing to "modify" in VF4...

VICTORY POSES/PHRASES
Some of the poses are fine... But some of the phrases are just plain awful (either that or a strong attempt at humor). Personally, I would like to hear all characters speak in their native accents and voices. Wolf, Jeffry, Jacky, and Sarah really need new/different phrases. I mean, here are some existing ones (I probably got some wrong):
"Even good guys blow it!" <-- This is just plain wrong!!!!
"I'm faster than Lightning!!!" <-- this phrase plus Virtua should be considered an oxymoron (Yeah, like I'm sure someone's gonna whoop some guy's butt and just say it all of a sudden).
"That's Mariner Power!!!!!!!" <-- Actually all of Jeffry's phrases display an IQ of, I don't know... less than 50?
"I'll Praise you, for your strength" <-- It's either a bad phrase or maybe it's just the way it's said that makes it seem so... bad...

Anyways, that's just my opinion, and yeah, without phrases like those there wouldn't be as much humor in VF, but I think new phrases can only be better And for those who really care for things like the old phrases, maybe they can hold a direction and a button in the replay to do the classic poses if they really care about them

-Chanchai

PS. Ack, keep forgetting that this message board hates plus signs....

 

For Vf4

I would say add at LEAST 4 more characters. I would love to say, as I have put here before, a Taekwondo practisioner, a Tai-Chi stylist, a capoeira, and maybe even a ground fighter, mua-ti fighter. Also, a more intergral blocking system in which you can do differen't type of blocks. The animation for ach character needs to be at least tripled. No more sharing the same friggen round house animation with just a few tweaks. Make each fighter's attack look and act differen't. I would like to see ground fighting worked in. I would also like to see seize and height and weight worked in more. Pai should damage easier than Taka. Fatigue is an excellent idea as well as body damage that affects your character. Maybe for this need a "second wind" worked in. Sooo many possibilities

 

::Imashroom, I love most of your ideas and the ones about the environment is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "layered depth". But you know what that means right? This will be impossible to do faithfully on a Naomi.::

Ice-9: I'm just curious. How do you know this to be so? Lookin at what's been done by DOA2 by a non-Sega developer, what makes you so certain Yu Suzuki couldn't pull off imashroom's suggestions on Naomi? He seems to be doing some pretty impressive stuff with Shenmue.
Wolfstudent

ice-9 | Sennin

 

DOA2's stages and environment are relatively flat--there are not many curved surfaces. The same could be said for Shenmue. Also, the color palette used in DOA2 is not that impressive. Keep in mind that there are two graphic modes in DOA2--one where there is no gameplay and essentially a real time movie, and the other where gameplay figures in. The real time movies look fantastic, but that's the minimum of what I want VF4 to be.

When imashroom and I speak of the different, more detailed terrain variables, we are thinking of natural structures which are seldom straight edged. I.e. expect a lot of curved, smooth surfaces.

I can't speak for imashroom, but I have high hopes for VF4 in terms of visual achievement...remember those Shenmue facial demos? That's what I want my VF characters to look like. Judging by Suzuki's comment on how he's learned something about the way lips and other facial features move and applying it to VF4 (allegedly), I think he's thinking the same thing that I am.

Unfortunately, the DC can only render a simple background while displaying those faces (and there is no gameplay either)...this indicates to me that the DC/Naomi would be unable to carry out Suzuki's vision for VF4.

ice-9 | Sennin

 

Though the snow stage you sink into the ground....and you can also hop onto chairs and the such....so...how about we hold off till we actually play the game, eh?