Not that i'm a pro or anything but................

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

The basics of punishing enemies that are at a disadvantage is fundamental why would they think that you shouldn't be doing that if it wins it wins why not go all out to get the win?

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Oh I see...thanks!

I think playing "normal" only works if everyone plays "normal"...as soon as one player starts being different, then it throws everyones games off. It's a chain reaction thing.

For example, when you're at -12...if the opponent throws you 80% of the time, then yes, I would do throw escapes. But what if the opponent does 20% throws, 20% low punch, 20% OM P, 20% reversal, and 20% some other random useless shit? Yes, most of those options are less damaging than throws and some don't even work, but just by mixing it up it makes throw escapes less useful than it should be.

I think this is due to players in the US thinking...well, I can throw and take the "will they escape my throw" chance, or I can do random shit now and take the "will they predict my randomness" chance. And since there's more options from randomness, they go with that instead.

And once someone does that, nobody can predict what happens next...so nobody is willing to learn these basic techniques that's only going to be useful 20% of the time (for example, from above). And without these basic techniques, nobody graduates to learning the advanced techniques...

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

You're misunderstanding, katsudon. The point is that japanese players, in general, beat american players outright, because they're using the "normal" style... it's purely a superior way to play. The only reason to stop using "normal" stuff, is if you know 100% for a fact that you're opponent is about to do the "normal" thing, and then there's occasionally a weird option that will beat that.

Take the throw escapes at -12. You always, always, always want to throw escape at -12, not because you know you're opponent will throw, but because it's the only thing you can still defend against at -12. If you're opponent low punches... well, they just hit you, cause at -12, you can't block a low punch. If they standing punch, well they just hit you because you can't block a standing punch. If they put at -12, and then use a reversal... well you can thank your lucky stars that you're playing against a moron, because reversals last a grand total of 12 frames, meaning it was impossible for you to even initiate an attack during the complete duration of their reversal. That's why you throw escape... because there's nothing else you can do, not because you know your opponent will throw.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Yeah, you're right. But I'm not saying my scenario made sense or is the optimal thing to do from an attacker's point of view. It's wrong, it makes no sense...but as long as there's someone who is throwing out useless reversals 20% of the time, and maybe other slow-ass >12 frame moves another 70% (which you can not TE but can just guard), and only actually throw 10 % of the time, then the percentage of defenders who attempts throw escapes will also decrease, out of confusion and laziness if nothing else.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

You sound so deattached, it is a two-player game. Learn how to play correctly yourself, and you'll probably be surprised how fast people around you will wise up and start trying to learn correct defense instead of continuing to attack randomly.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

So I should throw escape when nobody online is throwing me? Like against the people who think Lei Fei has no throws? Just so I'm playing "correctly"?

Mate...relax, I'm not saying you're wrong, with Japs style being superior, and how the game is meant to be played and all that. I'm just commenting on different mentalities, which reflects on how everyone else is playing, that's all.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

katsudon, at -12 ALWAYS input throw escapes and then hold guard, it should become muscle memory. You have nothing to lose here. If they punish correctly with PK you'll get hit, if they do something slower you'll guard it! and if they decide to throw you'll escape if you guessed right.

Online is fun and games but I believe you've allready met up with sebo and 'em,. Offline is were it's at, those are the games that matter> So just make it muscle memory to use TE's because they will pay off where it counts.

And not just at -12. Try and practice/implement ETEG and disadvantages of -7 to -11 or so.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

All those fancy defensive skills don't payoff until you reach the higher levels of play where you put yourself at a disadvantage by not using them.

- Basic high/low guarding.
- Dodging
- Throw Escapes
- Frame knowledge
- Stances: Open, Closed
- Tech Roll, Quick Rise
- Struggling
- Fuzzy

All the above allows you to more or less extend your health bar through avoid damage. Take Wolf or Jeffrey's 33P+G. This throw takes off more or less half. Instead of dying after eating 2 of these throws. Simply escaping 2 in a round you've doubled your HitPoints.

Another basic example is being susceptible to regular bounce combos and pouncing. Take Lei Fei's 66K or 9K+G, how many of those do you eat after hitting the floor before you get up? Or vs Lion, is he able to pounce you every time you are grounded?

These advanced defensive tactics come into play most at very high level of play where there is nothing else to differentiate the skils of opponents of that caliber. At lower levels its more about who has the better offense. Don't forget that also at high levels of play the offensive ability of both opponents is also at their peaks.

The ratio of offense/defense is 30/70 at high levels. (8dan+)

The ratio of offense/defense is 90/10 at lower levels. (4dan-)


So looking at the ratios you can simply see that a a lower skilled player needs to do a lot more "damage" to a better opponent. As you need to attack 3 times more. In contrast the "skilled" player only needs to play at 90/10 and win.

When playing vs a new opponent I generally size up their offensive/defensive abilility and attack accordingly. Obviously at high ranks you generally know what standards to expect.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Funny you said that cause that what i was tryin to Expain to DubC in the shout box one day. Yeah its cool to know Frame Data before going into a fight but do have the grasp of the basics and the game period? To be honest i never was into frame data NEVER but i had friends (Akmal, DaBadseed) who just knew what attacks were at advantage and disadvantage.Being that they pick up on it i had no choice but to say ok now i know where my flow ends sice it can be interupted.To be honest I just really heard about frame advantage and never try to kill myself to incorperate it until i knew everything. As far i know now being a part time player i still find time to serve moherfuckers here and there with the commom knowledge of with it supposed to be done. I don't need a frame count grid to let me what attacks leave you at a disadvantage when its clearly visible.

To speak on the what the Japanese people think about American VF players. Don't think just because the few you played all play alike mean america is full of copycats. If anybody know anything about japanese people they do anything basic period. They always try to be deceptive and sometimes try to be the complete opposite of how a game is played. I could go on and on about Japanese people but for what? I know the Few that i ran into on Xbox Live whether it was player match or ranked i tore their ass out the frame with no lag when i host (Thank you 5.5 mb upload.).
So i not ready to say no one is better than me until proven otherwise.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

What are you talking about? Frame data *IS* knowledge of what attacks leave you at disadvantage or advantage. I can know to elbow after low punch because I played a lot, and it became natural. Or, I can know to elbow after low punch because I know my opponent is at -5, and therefore it's impossible for them to counterhit a 14-frame attack.

There isn't any difference between knowing an elbow works "because it works", and knowing it works because it's 14 frames. It only matters that you use the elbow.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Sorias, this thread is a pretty decent read. I agree with what you're saying, and you're basically describing Moral style, aren't you?

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

to be succesful at this both players need to actually know what a normal reaction to a situation would be for something deceptive and "opposite of how the game is played" to work as intended.

In an interview with Myke on ign.com he said players must know the basics to advance, and then he said you can advance even further by breaking these basic rules.

*edit*
This is the quote

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Understanding advantage and disadvantage is critical to reaching the next level of VF skill. But just like Neo in the Matrix, you can attain yet higher levels of skill by breaking these rules. However, before you can break them, you must fully understand and respect them. Grasshopper, can you snatch this stone from my hand? </div></div>

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

I think what I'm trying to describe is more fundamental than just "moral". To try and give an example... if you're at -5, instead of fuzzy guarding, you can play abare, use an elbow... you'll beat a throw, but lose to opponent's elbow. You can also just standing guard, which would still be moral (i.e. a defensive option from disadvantage)... you'll beat opponent's elbow, but lose to a throw. Finally, you can fuzzy guard, and you've chosen the "correct" option, and beat both the elbow and the throw.

I think moral and abare both come into play at a higher level than what I'm describing, in situations where there isn't a "correct" answer to default to. Like... if you're opponent is on the ground, you can backdash out of rising attack range, which is moral. Or, you can use an okizeme attack, betting that they won't use a rising attack and counterhit you, which would be abare. There's lots of things that are less clear cut in the game... but it's all finesse, and defining your personal style, once you have the basics down.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Using oki attacks is considered abare?

There's no disadvantage, you're at the advantage, you're standing while the opponent is on the ground?

Unless I just completely don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

I'm using too many bad examples;;

Maybe fuzzy guarding is too complex for what I'm talking about, it's not like it's actually required, just tends to be worth learning, at least. The throw escape at -12 example is much more inline with the kind of core gameplay ideas that I'm trying to refer to... there's no choice there, you just always do it. With fuzzy guard, there is a choice.

The elbow after low punch is interesting too... there's no abare or moral distinction there, really. If you're abare, you would always attack, so you still attack. If you're moral, you'd attack at advantage, so you still attack. And technically there is a choice... you can stop using an elbow for attacks up to 17 frames and you're opponent's standard option is guard or be hit, and you can safely use a low if you want to instead of the elbow or whatever else. BUT, if you're having trouble doing with multiple low punches in a row, elbowing is the simple way past that. It's something you learn first, before you need to really worry about frame data, or max damage combos or any of that other shit. And it seems like a lot of people forget that.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Frame Data is Cool don't get me wrong. It show that VF5 is truly a Technical game but over analyzing leads to a ass whuppings especially when whateva it you planed against that opponent fails soon as it is applied. I mean lets be honest if you assume that that elbow is gonna save your ass from a counter crouching jab all the time against experience opponent you have another thing coming.

In virtua fighters i've come to understand that when you are on the offense to much you totally forget about defense. You could beat someone the first 2 rounds in a landslide then that person could neutralize/changeup on one little thing and you become stunned by tunnel vission and totally forget how to close out the match. As far as i go using Jacky i fight morally/Abare or whateva the fuck Japanes players call its cause i know my shit produce results.

BTW Slide i created the Topic if you did'nt know lol /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif!

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

i think frame data is good, it's evidence of the depth of the game, and yes I'm pretty sure it does help people a lot because its still being used

i personally never read any frame data though since i don't have to, i can read it in game. but one thing that is annoying is when someone says your not playing the game how it's supposed to be played because i don't use the same moves as them, and I'm someone who very rarely ever low punches.

off-topic: i was told ages ago by a cool guy called GT: Dai Bison. that i should come to this site cos i can get a lot of good information from it. stubborn as i am i opted to learn without help, I'm someone for originality and one of the beauties of life is the unknown so I'll probably just be on this site to chat and hopefully create rivalries /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

My compliments if, in-game, you can tell a 5 frame (dis)advantage from a 6 frame and a 7 frame. Because it makes a hell of a difference in terms of what you have to do.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

Somebody told me that same bullshit lol! They also told me that i was too random and i will get beat easily because im not playing the game correctly. That was coming from a person who just started playing VF5 first. Funny enough was i was taxing that ass after they caught me by surprise.

 

Re: Not that i'm a pro or anything but............

There is no right way to play VF their may be the preferred way like most people use like in Japan and yet they question how American play and same goes the other way how we question their lack a aggression sometimes when the enemy is on the ground and they refuse to hit them or grab them off of the ground when they know they can just end the match by hitting them while they are down.

I for example play a weird type of pai character that few people ever see because I appear to be the only one to play her that way that is what I hear from others anyway. is it right to say my way of playing pai is wrong no why because it works somehow and I can win with it somehow. Play the way you want to play even if it is simple especially if the other person falls for your tactics all the time, if they complain it is their own fault they weren't prepared or didn't adjust to it after seeing it a few times. That is why the game is so great there are so many ways to play the game that there is no right or wrong way to do it.