NYC GTN Movie

nah, any kind of evading technique has no risk once close range throw is eliminated, that cuts the nitaku game completely, with the majority, ECD (G) is legit, backdash ECD (G) has absolutely no risk. no need for mix-ups at all.

----------------------------------

i tested out brad vs brad in training mode:

after he did a df+k outside of throw range, he would backdash -- ECD and stay in fuzzy guard.

and heres the results from my brad:

- close range throw = whiff (duh)

- elbow = whiff

- long side kick = evaded

- dashing elbow = evaded

- dashing throw = whiffed (with this you have to use a full range foward dash to catch brad, a short dash will miss completely ~!! but this wont happen in an instant nitaku situation, the opponent is gonna make the dash as short as possible)

 

Well, I only mentioned it as an alternative option after those moves, especially against Wolf/Jeffry. It's not something I'd do very often.

 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, hey, wasnt this supposed to *deal* with delayed attacks? --- otherwise all that's left is just ....... ETEG

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my point.... I never found ETEG or backdashing ETEG as an effective tool for beating delayed attacks, or sometimes even at those -4 to -8 situations. Especially players with good timing anticipation or reaction. Like what I said earlier, people are trained to punish the evades on visual reaction, and if you don't cancel the evade, the window is so big that it will hit you everytime if that is what you always try to do in those situations.

In those situations, throw escape attack, jabbing, lp, low kick, are all the things you should be thinking about mixing in and force the reverse guessing game. If you really have to pick one though, like what others have said, I also believe back dash evade crouch dash cancel is a better choice than back dash evade throw escape guard. I'll go into more detail I guess in something I'm working on.

In the end, the situation where you would benefit from doing backdash evade throw escape guard is just too limited to deem it a necessary option. I think though, against a very very safe player, or certain characters, (lots of elbow type mids/throw mix up) this technique can be useful, but against someone who is trained in using those anti evade tools, you might as well just stick with ETEG...

 

i got it wrong in my first post to konjou about ETEG could cover delayed attacking.

ETEG was never ment to / or can -- deal with delayed attacking.

the (G) part is really meant for *canned followups* (i.e with fast evade in mind) which would somehow still hit you after you evade, i.e wolf's P,K combo where his K is a semi-circular would hit you if you evaded the P ------ so yeah, delayed attacking would be dealt with by less "instant timing" measures where as ETEG just deals with an instant response to getting trapped by nitaku.

 

In VF3 - P, K can track opponent that evade to stomach side. But this is no longer true in VF4, once your opponent dodged your P, your opponent will sorta like off axis for the K to hit.
cheers,

 

the P,K combo will hit you if you evade to his back leg with comand inputs (it only hits if you input something outside of the evade window, which will be anything above atleast 2 throw escapes) this also applies to wolf's Short Shoulder launcher and im guessing other things in the same catagory, if you evade towards his stomach with command inputs you will be launched with SS. --- sucks doesnt it, lol.

try it yourself, use wolf in training mode to do a P,K then evade toward is back leg with 2 comand inputs and G, if you whiff wolf (which will seem random), try it with 3 throw escapes and see for yourself. (an attack will get you instantly MC launched)

but basically you get the idea, it's for any recoil hits which come afterwards which would normally hit you if you tried to input or any other canned followups that hit you regardless like jacky's beatknuckle - K followup. the guard is for those recoil hits. and it illustraits this in trial training mode.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:

Why are people saying that backdash ETEG can't beat a delayed attack? Of course it can! The (fast) evade doesn't kick in until an attack is made. And the delay we're talking about is the usual delay in anticipation of a regular evade and the backdash alone will eat up this delay. You could try to argue that the opponent might delay long enough in anticipation for both a backdash and evade, but then we get into the circular argument of defensive techniques common to VF, and besides, they're at long range now where lots of attacks/throws will miss.

Well, Konjou does play against the likes of Adam, so I think practicing this technique can only help him! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks Myke. I have been wanting to respond to all this nonsense for sometime now, but I wanted to see if anyone who has played EVO & FT would correct everyones mistake. BACK DASH EVADE THROW ESCAPE DOES BEAT DELAYED ATTACKS... IT DID IN EVO AND IT DOES IN FT TOO. The reason it doesn't work for Shou is, because he is trying to use it the way he did in EVO to get a major dodge and a random Dragon Smash Cannon. The 2 extra frames of dodging won't allow that. Also I bet he is inputting the commands to quickly in FT. Remember FT is WAY SLOWER THAN EVO AND ENTERING COMMANDS TO FAST AFTER A DODGE WILL GET YOU NOTHING... ZERO... ZILCH. Like Myke said the back dash is meant to waste time to make up for your opponents delay. And yes, Myke hit it right on the money again. I only practice this technique because of the way ghettoSHUN(Nelson) and Adam plays. Against anyone else like Cruz, Kazu, Andy, etc I usually do things like what Srider mentioned(attack throw escape, ETEG, counter throw escape).

When I was in Japan I watched Minami Akira play and he was doing back dash evade NO THROW ESCAPE guard. VF is just a game of making the right choice based on your opponent. I choose this technique based on my opponent here and nothing more. There is no ALL AROUND DEFENSIVE technique, but BACK DASH DOUBLE / TRIPLE THROW ESCAPE GUARD is pretty damn close. Yea I am working on doing Triple. It's only weakness is circular attacks, catch throw and super delayed attack which may miss entirely. I only shared this technique with everyone just to show what works for ME. Maybe A.R.E. works better for BK_! To each his own! In the end the win still boils down to who ever makes the right decision.

one last thing! Why does every technique issue has to turn into a numbers game. Half the reason most of us are not as strong as we want to be is because we study number to much and base our flow charts around that. Just play the damn game! That's one of the greatest lessons I learned in Japan. When I played in Japan everytime I tried to play the numbers game. I got a Yoho to the mouth with a big FUCK YOU AND YOUR +8 ADVANTAGE or I got a PERFECT GIANT SWING WHEN I WAS AT + 4 - 5 ADVANTAGE. If Aoi is at +3 why should I not go for SDE or Shoulder. What if my opponent hessitates? What if my opponent just simply enters his next command to slow? According to the United States Of America VF Text Book your best option in that situation is to Low Punch or ETEG... ppffffttt! After I got back from Japan I made sure I threw that numbers game bullshit right in the thrash and the United States Of America VF Text Book.

Just play the game!

 

Oh shit you guys finally did it, He has finally cracked.

 

i wasnt gonna reply, but i guess i have some things to say..

please read the majority of posts here again, most of it doesnt contradict your post whatsoever /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

only one person said backdash ETEG cant beat delayed attacking, and he was corrected /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif (lol)

the rest is just a discussion of different possibilities to simmer down such a heavy input OR / AND put it into some other prespectives because knowing moreso that you can stay with finger close to the guard button and keeping your fuzzy momentom is better than knowing you have to cover several different commands at once, and no, it's not heavy number based, it's movement based to keep you in a steadier position to follow-up, and yes, the information needs to be accurate in order to be usable. even the basics of nitaku, and the basics of ETEG on it's own have been mentioned here. and even the simplest inputs have been considered. if you just scan over the last few pages very quickly, you would miss individual points which have been made.

eating a yoho at advantage would teach you not to turtle with your own desicions, doesnt stop the situation from being a "lucky grab", ... in VF you learn how to close off logical come-back decisions by narrowing down the opponent's choices, it also teaches you that a choice is just a choice and can fail. --- and that sometimes, yes, being perssistent in executing a 4-part defense technique against basic nitaku could use some other prespectives to explore as an addition.

the VF book of numbers taught you that the very technique you practice differs slightly in FT, and knowing these things is important. playing a book of numbers with nitaku sounds to me like a direct hit or throw game, where as people here already know that using your opponent's own gut against them is the best force, these do require attack pressure, delay pressure or distance pressure, but if you choose the route of attacking, you must know how and know your own position.. the difference is when people slot frames in like a jig-saw puzzle, where as frames really give you the freedom to use several logical choices~!!

people do just play the game, but they also lose and learn, get countered and learn, get trapped and learn, you learning backdash ETEG is just a response to your own experience and by using "logic" in the VF system, you have decided this technique will deal will several options in different attack classes.

the last few pages wasn't nonsense.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Konjou_Akira said:

Remember FT is WAY SLOWER THAN EVO AND ENTERING COMMANDS TO FAST AFTER A DODGE WILL GET YOU NOTHING... ZERO... ZILCH.

[/ QUOTE ]
The game does look slower than Evo to me as well. I thought it was just me. It seems like they've nerfed the movement a little bit which I also don't like. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come in VF5.

Back on topic, I agree that the "VF textbook" thing is trash, but who even plays like that still? Not the people I play against. I think anyone who has played VF for a while knows that the best way to play is to be totally random. The numbers game is good for guaranteed damage stuff, but the rest just comes down to experience. Anyway, I want my console FT now!!

 

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:

as people here already know that using your opponent's own gut against them is the best force, these do require attack pressure, delay pressure or distance pressure, but if you choose the route of attacking, you must know how and know your own position.. the difference is when people slot frames in like a jig-saw puzzle, where as frames really give you the freedom to use several logical choices~!!

people do just play the game, but they also lose and learn, get countered and learn, get trapped and learn, you learning backdash ETEG is just a response to your own experience and by using "logic" in the VF system, you have decided this technique will deal will several options in different attack classes.

the last few pages wasn't nonsense.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe I was a little to harsh in my words. Anyways, I like this... well said!

I'll shut up now! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no ALL AROUND DEFENSIVE technique, but BACK DASH DOUBLE / TRIPLE THROW ESCAPE GUARD is pretty damn close. Yea I am working on doing Triple. It's only weakness is circular attacks, catch throw and super delayed attack which may miss entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also weak against long range attacks. The technique works great against the likes of Kage, not as great against the likes of Akira.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

one last thing! Why does every technique issue has to turn into a numbers game. Half the reason most of us are not as strong as we want to be is because we study number to much and base our flow charts around that. Just play the damn game! That's one of the greatest lessons I learned in Japan. When I played in Japan everytime I tried to play the numbers game. I got a Yoho to the mouth with a big FUCK YOU AND YOUR +8 ADVANTAGE or I got a PERFECT GIANT SWING WHEN I WAS AT + 4 - 5 ADVANTAGE. If Aoi is at +3 why should I not go for SDE or Shoulder. What if my opponent hessitates? What if my opponent just simply enters his next command to slow? According to the United States Of America VF Text Book your best option in that situation is to Low Punch or ETEG... ppffffttt! After I got back from Japan I made sure I threw that numbers game bullshit right in the thrash and the United States Of America VF Text Book.

Just play the game!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, the truth!

 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are people saying that backdash ETEG can't beat a delayed attack? Of course it can! The (fast) evade doesn't kick in until an attack is made. And the delay we're talking about is the usual delay in anticipation of a regular evade and the backdash alone will eat up this delay.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I was saying. I clearly stated that against a player who delay attacks based on timing this technique will work. A failed evade was slow enough in Evo.. it's even bigger in FT, so how can you beat a delayed attack with BDETEG when your opponent is looking for it the MOST in those kinds of -4 to -8 situations?

Against a player who base their delayed attacks on reaction, this won't work... and that was my point. What Konjou said is what I've advocated since the Evo days, it's funny that people are now telling ME this...

The few people that I play with, are trained to deal with back dash evades, they are trained to input their command when they see the evade, instead of timing. Mixing up ETEG or BDETEG can hardly trick them. This is the reason why I said neither ETEG or BDETEG is effective against these kinds of players, therefore both of these techniques are fairly weak against delayed attack when it's executed reaction based. Someone using Lau, Brad, Vanessa, Akira, maybe others can easily execute their high launchers on reaction. Goh players can do for a knockdown with one command. A Jeffry player can or even hell stab. These attacks will reach you when timed correctly even though you have back dashed. If you maximum delay the evade for a full back dash, then that might leave you open for attack during the backdash. These are small details that can only be experience when you are playing people who vary things up, and not text book / numbers game. This is why I said that against a player who delay attacks, you should try low punching or low attacks, or even jab back, or even throw at a disadvantage. Since against certain characters, low attacks will beat those high launchers, thus forcing them to go back to the basic nitaku game, thus opening up the chance for ETEG which gives you more opportunities to counter attack when you evade. This is also why in my last post I agreed with what other people have said that simply back dash evade crouch dash cancel is possibly more effective. This just goes again to show the paper rock scissor game of the VF situational game. This is why I disagree with the statement that back dash evade TE is the closest thing to an all around defensive tech. Anytime you evade TE, it just gives too big of a window, imo....

What I said previously can also be used by the opponent, like when people had trouble against Ryan's attack attack attack strategy... So this is I guess my findings from the years I've been playing this game, whether you guys think it's useful/correct/relevant, it's not within my control.... It's just surprising to me that when I said ETEG and BDETEG are not effective at those -4 to -8 situations.... I'm accused of playing American text book VF, and I'm not even American...

 

[ QUOTE ]
DRE said:

[ QUOTE ]
Konjou_Akira said:

Remember FT is WAY SLOWER THAN EVO AND ENTERING COMMANDS TO FAST AFTER A DODGE WILL GET YOU NOTHING... ZERO... ZILCH.

[/ QUOTE ]
The game does look slower than Evo to me as well. I thought it was just me. It seems like they've nerfed the movement a little bit which I also don't like. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come in VF5.

Back on topic, I agree that the "VF textbook" thing is trash, but who even plays like that still? Not the people I play against. I think anyone who has played VF for a while knows that the best way to play is to be totally random. The numbers game is good for guaranteed damage stuff, but the rest just comes down to experience. Anyway, I want my console FT now!!

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks Dre! I know you were talking about me! hahahah

 

[ QUOTE ]
Raider said:



[/ QUOTE ]

one last thing! Why does every technique issue has to turn into a numbers game. Half the reason most of us are not as strong as we want to be is because we study number to much and base our flow charts around that. Just play the damn game! That's one of the greatest lessons I learned in Japan. When I played in Japan everytime I tried to play the numbers game. I got a Yoho to the mouth with a big FUCK YOU AND YOUR +8 ADVANTAGE or I got a PERFECT GIANT SWING WHEN I WAS AT + 4 - 5 ADVANTAGE. If Aoi is at +3 why should I not go for SDE or Shoulder. What if my opponent hessitates? What if my opponent just simply enters his next command to slow? According to the United States Of America VF Text Book your best option in that situation is to Low Punch or ETEG... ppffffttt! After I got back from Japan I made sure I threw that numbers game bullshit right in the thrash and the United States Of America VF Text Book.

Just play the game!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, the truth!

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha yea true on that. I never go on flow combo's unless my opponent is dumb to keep TRing into the wrong sides. The reason I don't learnt he numbers game is...well I haven't got the best of memorys and so my play game is kinda random as most ppl kinda know anyway, lol. My Kage can go all over the place sometimes. I think my switching styles between game is my strongest attribute when I play. I like playing defense like a pure turtle then snap into attack mode the next second and unleash a full onslaught, then if I'm in trouble again, back to def and repeat!

screw the numbers game and all that frame crap. I learnt from experience what moves work when a certain motion or move is being performed. Blame tekken. Tekken has so many opening points it screams "HIT ME!". Most my experience come from playing Tekken and Rival Schools. Both Games which have opening moves. It's a reason why so many ppl who I play Tekken with get a nice big fat phoenix smasher in their faces more than usual.

 

one last thing! Why does every technique issue has to turn into a numbers game. Half the reason most of us are not as strong as we want to be is because we study number to much and base our flow charts around that. Just play the damn game! That's one of the greatest lessons I learned in Japan. When I played in Japan everytime I tried to play the numbers game. I got a Yoho to the mouth with a big FUCK YOU AND YOUR +8 ADVANTAGE or I got a PERFECT GIANT SWING WHEN I WAS AT + 4 - 5 ADVANTAGE. If Aoi is at +3 why should I not go for SDE or Shoulder. What if my opponent hessitates? What if my opponent just simply enters his next command to slow? According to the United States Of America VF Text Book your best option in that situation is to Low Punch or ETEG... ppffffttt! After I got back from Japan I made sure I threw that numbers game bullshit right in the thrash and the United States Of America VF Text Book.



Although I'd generally agree with Rodney's statement, I still think that the fundametal of VF is based on numbers(frames).

For instance, when you get thrown in your advantage, that could mean your opponent got ahead of you. In an advantaged situation, you can choose between 4 different things, which'd be attck, throw, delayed attack and just waiting. The first 3 options'd beat your opponent's seemingly ridiculous throw attempt in his disadvantage, but since you decided to choose the "waiting" option, he took advantage of that and punished you with a throw because you ended doing nothing in adv in doubt.

Frame wise, the situation is wrong, but VF is a game of mind game of which frames being the base.


I remember back in the day, when Dandy and I were talking about how Segaru Giant Swinged Minami Akira after he hit Minami with 1K on a regular hit. Frame wise, Segaru's in disadvantage, but since the Low Punch Cut follows the situation so often, people hesitate to attack back in this situation, and that's what Minami ended up doing. He chose to wait, and Segaru threw him even with the disadvanage.

In the final tourney, Homestay did 46P+K with AKira and Edo blocked it. Edo decided to wait, and Homestay threw him with 16P+G without a hesitation.

As weird as those situation might look, there are still frames involved. If you choose to wait in your adv, that's not a right thing to do in frame wise, either. You are just giving away your adv because you are in doubt, so when you get thrown in that situation, why'd that be so wrong in frame wise when you don't retain that initiative any more.

These are just some examples to say what I am going to say. Numbers are important. VF's based on frames after all. When you get thrown out of your adv or yohoed in your adv means your opponent were ahead of that particular guessing game. It shouldn't discourage you in playing your style of the game. Learning VF without understanding of frames wouldn't work especially you live in the Western world from my experience. Really good players have a lot of experiences in frame based fighting in so many situations. That's why they play a game beyond that teritory based on the assumption that your opponent understands frames and fundamentals. Doing backdash sidekick to beat your opponent's LP in your
-1 situation is based on the assumtion that you know that he knows you are in -1 so he would go for a LP to beat anything you could do. That enables you to take advantage of the situation, beating his LP with your backdash side kick.

Instead of abandoning frames, it'd be better to consider adding the knowledge of what you can do to discourage that type of play. When you get thrown out of an adv, just realize that your opponent is anticipating your waiting in certain situations. You could of punished them with a throw or an attack for example. It's just another aspect of the game that's not so familiar to the Western players yet, IMO.



P.S. Backdash evade does own a delayed attack. If not, there's not much point using that technique. And, yes. Backdash evade MTEG is the closest thing to the best defensive tech in the game.

 

Maddy: I don’t think anyone would disagree on the mater that frames are important, but some people just pay too much attention to them in my opinion. For me personally VF is 70 % experience from playing other people, I don’t read frame guides. I think for me and just to use this as a bad example is like when a guitar player can listen to a random song on a CD and can immediately be able to play it, just because he learned playing guitar by ear, and not by studying the theory on how to play a guitar. He knows in his head what he is doing, but he can’t explain it in theory so other people would understand him.

If you tell this guitar player to write the pentatonic major scale in the key of G down on a paper he can’t necessarily do that. Now he may still be able to play the pentatonic major in the key of G, but he doesn’t know the real theory behind it.

I am a perfect example of this when it comes to VF, I don’t read frames that much, more to the point that I never read them at all. I always felt like I shouldn’t limit myself to frames, but more to the opponent that I’m playing against. It’s incredible what kind of stuff you can get away with just because people never ever would believe that you would try that. I even KO-ed Arashi with Kage’s u P+K after knockdown, why did I try that move, yes because I knew that he wouldn’t think that I would ever try that against him.
But ask me to learn you some frame based stuff, and I would just forward you to Kiwe.

Anyway, there isn’t a right way or a wrong way here, personally I would recommend people to play the game even more, rather than using a couple of hours studying frame stats. At least until they become more involved in the game, almost to the point where you want to read frames, even I did that, but it took me two years and six months of play, 6 months in Shanghai, 2 weeks in the US and 3 weeks in Japan before I felt that I should try and learn some theory behind the stuff that I already knew by playing, and even to this day I would rather go into training mode than going online reading.

Another thing that I find useful is that I have gathered 5 or 6 different TFT combos and some other combos that I almost use every time I play against someone new, the point behind this is that I don’t care about the damage potential, but more about how my opponent will react to it. Will he try and quick rise, tech roll or just stay down, basically just try and study everything that he does. And after doing this against a good amount of different people I automatically learn different patterns and set ups that will work, because many people will react just the same in a situation. But the more people I get to play the more I learn, hence my view that VF is 70 % versus experience!
A good example of this is the roll that you get in Jumonji stance after P, P, K, I used this technique in different arcades when I was in Japan, and noticed that most people would get hit by the last roll, just because no one ever hardly used it, so when I played in the Beat Tribe tourney it worked like a charm for me. And just by studying and trying out the different things that I learned after successfully using this move against different people I now have four new set ups just by trying and failing with a move that someone probably never would advise me to use.

Some people would say that to be able to play like this you have to have lots of versus experience, and yes that is true I can’t deny that. But that is just the sorry ass fact of playing this game. Downloading match videos and getting information from other players will help you out, but if frame knowledge was the main case of getting good at this game, every one in this fucking message board would be the greatest players known to man.
The best thing to do though is to travel and play different people. I travel as often as possible to play other people, whet ever they suck or kick my ass they can all learn me something. And also I have met some very nice people from traveling, and many of them coming from this board so I would highly recommend that!


But again, I agree that frame knowledge is very useful, but it should never stop you from trying out and testing different moves and situations. Even if someone tells you that a certain move is crap, it just might not be the case. That’s my two cents on this.

Lastly I’m sure that some people would disagree with me, but this is just the way that I play this game, I don’t have any issues with people learning this game by frames, and I guess that some things just work out better for different people.

Sorry for a long and kind of hard reading post.
Btw Maddy I can't wait to play you sometime! /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Later

 

Maddy's post expanded on what I said with specific examples. It would
be something very useful for everyone to give it a read to get an idea
of the higher level of VF situational guessing game.

Back on the subject of Back dash evade..... I thought I was clear in
saying that back dash evade TEG is not effective at dealing with
delayed attacks. I also said clearly that back dash evade CD Cancel
is more effective..... Here is why.

When you simply do a EvadeTEG in mid to large disadvantages, you give
a failed evade window to your opponent for a delayed attack that
begins at the SAME time every time, which is right after your attack
recovery is over. This makes the timing very simple, which is why
many people in the US have developed a TIMED reaction to beat the
ETEG.

So then we try to discover the next level of defensive tech to beat
that tactic. Which is to delay the evade long enough as to evade when
the TIMED delay attack occurs. Hence the birth of back dash evade.
This technique, since people are used to the timing of beating a ETEG, is effective against a timed delay attack aimed at beating ETEG. Since most players will anticipate the timing for when the evade occurs, the little bit of delay with the back dash will cancel out that timing.

This is the state that most players are at right now. The next level is then, how do you beat a Back dash evade? If you go into free training, or even observe your own back dash evade commands, you will realize that most of the time, you are not doing a full back dash, and you are actually canceling it with the evade. This means that there is actually an overlapping window of opportunity between a non delayed failed evade and a back dashed failed evade. So for a player who inputs 442 (back dash evade) as quickly as possible, it is possible to delay a TIMED attack to beat both of the options.
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
(Failed evade)
-------++++++++++++++--------------- No delay
(Failed evade)
-----------------++++++++++++++----- Delayed with BD
++++ (Attack in this window)
</pre><hr />
You can easily test this out in free training. This is if you want to rely on TIMING... You can see easily that if people are trained to timed their attack to beat ETEG, they will be defeated by a BDETEG.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
(Failed evade)
-------++++++++++++++--------------- No delay
(Failed evade)
-----------------++++++++++++++----- Delayed with BD
++++++++ (Usual Timed Delay Attack window)
</pre><hr />

One might say, "well, you can take out that window by maximum delay the evade, and do a full back dash. Well, if you test this out in free training, you will see that a timed delayed attack that will usually hit an ETEG opponent will also hit someone that does a full back dash.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
(Failed evade)
-------++++++++++++++--------------- No delay
(Failed evade)
----------------------++++++++++++++ Full BD
++++++++ (Usual Timed Delay Attack window)
</pre><hr />

You can clearly see that a fully delayed back dash can not execute the evade in time to evade the attack. So doing this to try to beat a well TIMED delay attack has other risks.

This is why against many players who are not trained to punish failed evades by REACTION, BDE can be effective. I'm surprised punishing a failed evade by reation is not something commonly employed by people in the US, because if you will just WATCH for the failed evade, you can not only execute your attack in the right window, but you can also make sure you have a true throwing opportunity when it's a basic nitaku game. When you watch the JP clips, you can clearly see a huge delay sometimes in a delayed attack or a throw, because they are not doing it by timing, but rather by seeing the failed evade, this can also help you deal with a constantly attack opponent, because you are not commiting yourself to a delayed attack, but rather seeing what the other player does.

Finally, here is the reason why I said that back dash evade CD CANCEL is a much better response for this particular situation. Whenever you do a ETEG, whether it's delayed with a back dash or not, you are giving the FULL failed evade frames for the opponent to see and take advantage of. The reason why you are doing a back dash is because you are expecting the delayed attack, or a throw on visual reaction. Because other wise, you might as well just do ETEG to beat a basic nitaku, or reverse nitaku. This is the reason why giving up the possibility of a shorter failed evade for a TE is kind of pointless in this situation. Depending on how good of a reaction a player has, you might have a chance of canceling your failed evade fast enough to duck the throw attempt, or making the delayed attack whiff, since you are shortening the window or opportunity as demonstrated above and taking into account the execution time of the attacks. This is why I said if you are gonna do TE, there is no point to back dash, thus Konjou's observation that one of the japanese players didn't do TE after back dash evade.

There are some more specific reasons why a back dash ETEG is not as effective as many people make it out to be, and many ways to safely minimize the usefulness of that technique by the opponent. I remember a long time ago talking to a certain Kage player in the South East about evading a jab, and later someone asked about it on VFDC and gave birth to Myke's frame explaination. For people that read up to this far, I guess you can see where I'm going with this, and this is just one example. As I roughly outlined in my last post and further expanded by Maddy, there are multiple ways of exploiting what people understand about the system. This is why people throw at a disadvantage, this is why people low kicks, why people attack at a disadvantage, etc... It's just funny to me that people go to Japan, and are now seeing the surface of this level of guessing/reverse guessing game are not willing to go one step beyond that level. Saying that a certain technique is the best all around option to beat a delayed attack is the exact same reason why people here are always a step behind and always accused of playing textbook.