Oki in VF4

I come from a Tekken-based background, so VF4 was a very different game esp. in the Oki department.
Most notable the amount of moves that hit grounded opponents are very few, where in Tekken everyone has tons of moves that hit grounded opponets.
In Tekken, the whole purpose to get up as fast as you can is to get away from all the nasty things that can happen if you stay on the ground. In VF4 I see people Tech-rolling all the time, but what is the point of that??? U+P is extremely slow and the Lower damage ground attacks CAN ONLY BE DONE ONCE??? Wouldn't it be a good tactic to stay on the ground untill you see a good opening???? I am sure I am missing a piece of the puzzle, so would anyone like to explain the Oki system better to me?? Thanks in advance.

 

I'm not nearly an authority on this, but I'll try to help.

First, use the search button and search all forums for all uses of the word Okizeme. It will take some sifting, but you will be able to find some good character specific oki situations and options.

Second, or also first, go to vfdc home and check out the documents for the character of your liking. Among other things, if there is a FAQ for that character check it out and you should find a discussion of that character's oki options.

Once you've done all this, you will notice that there is no 100% always safe way to deal with being grounded, as every option at your disposal can be outguessed and exploited. Remaining grounded, as you suggest, can get you stomped, pounced on, jumped over and BT attacked etc...If you decide to rise with an attack you can be countered, blocked and throw or interrupted...if you decide to back roll once grounded...you get the picture...Also, somewhere on this site I'm pretty sure there is a FAQ for tekken players new to VF and I'm sure a fine discussion of VF okizeme therein. Good luck.

 

In VF you can't lay on the ground forever so you have to do something or you'll probably get mC pounced. The only thing really crazy about VF wake-ups is that after you pounce/down attack somebody you practically have to block their rising kicks as they recover practically the same time as you..

 

here's where you should be right now.. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

Thanks to all that replied, but I still don't understand the system. The hard part is explaining it, without good knowledge of VF to begin with.

If let say Akira knocks someone down, he has 2 options(?) U+P and d/f+p right?? Lets say I want to U+P an opponent, They see me jumping high in the air and they roll out of the way, thus they recover faster than I do, So i get punished. If I do d/F+p they can either roll out of the way or do a rising kick to hit me out of the move??right?? So basically my questions is, "What makes the attacker so dangerous when the opponent is on the ground, that the opponent Tech-Rolls right away ?"

I can understand this in Tekken, because the attacker has a lot of ground moves that can chip off damage if the opponent stay on the ground, therefore you must Tech-roll/ Get-up as fast as you can. But in Vf even D+K doesn't hit the opponent.

 

People TR/QR to avoid unnecessary damage from either off the ground hits or pounces/stomps. Myke explains this in his "System of Instant Recovery" document. Basically, there are all sorts of very damaging combos for every character that you offer your opponent by not using TR/QR...You don't want Akira tacking on a d/f+P to a combo that ended with an avoidable DLC, right?

 

The basic guessing game when you finish a float combo or knock someone over is this.

--Did you hit them with a move that slams? Or end the combo with a move that slams? Moves that slam include the second hit of pai's K,K combo, or wolf's b+P, or jacky's f+P+K. If you end a combo with these moves, the opponent is slammed to the floor so they cannot tech roll or quick rise. In those situations, a small ground attack is guaranteed, and in some cases (like wolf's b+P) a large U+P ground attack is guaranteed, or very very hard to get out of.

--If you hit them with a move that slams, or they failed to tech roll for whatever reason, the wakeup game at this point is simple.
A: they can get up with a high rising kick
B: they can get up with a low rising kick.
C: They can roll backwards or to the side, and THEN do one of those kicks... just like in tekken. In general if you do the rising attack right away it's safer, and if you delay it for any length of time, it's slower/riskier. Don't worry about that part yet.
D: They can get up and do nothing.

Neither of the wakeup kicks knocks down. Neither seems to land any sort of guaranteed combo either, though if a high rising kick connects a lot of people like to try for a throw (it's not guaranteed).

So if you're in a position where your opponent didn't tech roll and they're going to do a rising attack in place (without rolling first) you can do the following.

1. Stuff the rising attack with a more powerful attack. I think you need to use an attack that does at least 20 pts of damage or so to be successful at this, and you need good timing too. So you'll want a big move like a knee or something. Knocking people cleanly out of high rising attacks, especially the slower in-place ones, isn't too hard to do. Doing it against rising sweeps is a little harder. If you're successful though you sometimes get to start a combo.

2. You can block the rising attack. Blocking low rising attacks nets you nothing guaranteed I think, except a few of them guarantee a low throw if you play someone with low throws. I like to joke that blocking a high rising attack guarantees a high throw because inexperienced players ALWAYS hold guard after it's blocked, so you can just run up and throw them. Even good players fall into this habit or dodge every time the rising sweep is blocked.
Blocking a high rising attack sometimes guarantees a throw, but it's pretty much a matter of memorizing when you can and when you can't. In general, vs akira you can never get a guaranteed throw but vs. the rest it's worth a try.

3. You can dodge rising attacks by moving in the same direction as the kick moves, like if they swing their feet from right to left, you wanna dodge to their left. Make your character move in the same direction the foot is moving. This applies mostly to akira, vs. others their kicks will still hit you during the dodge.

4. You can use weird tricks to duck under high rising attacks or hop over low ones. For example akira's f,f+K,K goes right over a low rising attack... the first kick misses, the second nails them. A knee will also hop right over a low rising attack, and when you land you get a free low throw.

5. You can reverse/sabaki the rising attack sometimes. Like if the rising kick is sort of a straight kick or half circular kick rather than a fully circular kick, then akira and wolf can use db+P+K to grab the rising kick. Kage can go into his stance and press PKG to stuff the kick (it leads to a 50 percent combo, it's worth trying). And some attacks are invincible vs. midlevel kicks, like lion's QCB+P or kage's b+K. Just time the move against the high rising kick and you will beat it for a hit, and possibly a combo. Vs. rising sweeps, aoi can press d+P+K to reverse them. Vanessa's elbow drop of death can also stuff them every single time.

Anyway, next up.
If the opponent gets up and does nothing, sometimes a perfectly timed sidekick (df+K) or elbow (f+P) will hit them and stagger them or knock them back down. You're not 100% invincible just standing up. Also if you predict they will get up and do nothing, sometimes you can squash them with a special down attack, for example aoi and pai and jeffry's u+K+G.
If they don't roll to the side OR try a rising attack, go for a small down attack or a ground throw if you've got one.

Lastly, there's the tech roll guessing game. If you knock them into the air and do a combo, they must make a choice:
1. Don't tech roll, in which case you can hit them off the floor with multiple attacks and do a lot of damage
2. Tech roll and pray that you weren't expecting it, cuz if you anticipate a tech roll you can force a nasty guessing game or even a guaranteed backstagger combo on them.
3. Use quick rise, which I think is susceptible to the same nasty guessing games mentioned earlier. Or maybe worse.

If your opponent lands facedown after a combo, that's the time to try for the guaranteed backstagger combo. If they land faceup (90% of the floats leave them like that) you can try for a low throw right at the end of their tech roll, as they recover crouching. Or if they know how to avoid a throw (low punch or do some other attack) you can stuff them with a sidekick. Or whatever else you wanna try. The guessing game is pretty much "I can hold guard and eat a low/high throw, or I can attack at the end of the tech roll, and risk eating your attack".

Hope that was of use.

 

Quick rules of thumb:

- If the opponent files and does not QR/TR, there are many attacks (predefined, unfortunately for Tekken players) that can hit on the ground. Usually the attack has to come quickly, otherwise it'll whiff if the opponent lies on the ground for too long.

- If the opponent lies on the ground and you did not try an off the bounce hit (which is probably often the case), you can then go for the ground attacks (, ) if you have enough advantage over the opponent on the ground.

- If you do not have enough advantage and did not try an off the bounce hit, then it's about dealing with the rising kick guessing game. The attacker does not nearly have as much advantage as in Tekken.

- If the opponent QR/TRs instead of just lying there, then you have an advantage but it's nothing near like Tekken's where you can get guaranteed hits.

Basically, the important thing to keep in mind is that in VF okizeme defense is stronger than it is in Tekken and that you'll be fighting your opponent standing most of the time. In contrast, sometimes you can win whole matches in Tekken alone beating on the grounded opponent.