Omaha Report 1

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by sta783, Nov 16, 1999.

  1. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    A lot of things happened in Omaha, both VF and non-VF related. But let me focus on the VF part as people here probably want to read more about it.

    First of all, everyone somehow acquired better defense. I noticed that it was getting increasingly difficult to connect with either attacks or throws. I don't know why they became that way, as they could not have practiced much against humans since the NY gathering. But all those subtle things, fuzzy guard, half back-step, gave me quite a few troubles. Now moving into individuals....

    Hiro (Wolf, Pai, Akira)
    His placement of the throws is what makes his Wolf deadly. Of course everyone can throw in the guaranteed situations. He distinguishes himself for his ability to guess right in the uncounterable situations, such as after the blocked elbow. Everyone was mixing up to defend against Wolf's guessing game; Hiro still somehow guesses right and connects with Giant Swing. Sumeragi especially feared this and always stayed a stride away from Wolf (but again, Lau vs. Wolf is a tough match-up for Lau).

    Hiro is also good at placing the throw, anticipating the opponent's dodge or forward-dash. I kept telling myself not to; but I still ate: PP, forward-dash(for throw), Giant Swing. And I cannot possibly escape Giant Swing in such circumstances.

    His Pai was notorious and known as 4-moves Pai. His Pai uses: PP, sidekick, roundhouse kick (while standing K), and throw(usually, b,d+PG or D_f+PG). His Pai will harrass you with many pecking moves, and when you get tired, it's the time for the throws. I realized, once again, the toughness of Pai's b,d+PG throw. I struggle and G -> eat another throw. Struggle and TE/attack -> eat roundhouse K. Either way I'll lose half of my life.

    One more thing about Hiro is that he plays seemingly random match. Those things that do not make theoretically but still work for him. Although Hiro advocates the use of many advanced defense techniques, he himself often becomes lazy and does not bother with those. Yet he still manages to get away with it. One such example is when my Lau went against his Kage. I blocked his high rising kick. So I promptly CD, anticipating his G-TE. If I don't see the throw-whiff (due to the G-TE), I will throw. If I see throw-whiff, I'd do Lau's roundhouse K + pounce to get good amount of guaranteed damage. Instead, Hiro simply crouched. No G-TE, or even the throw escape. I just got shocked and forgot to do anything.

    There are so many things that I can write about Hiro; but I'd have to give the space for others as well. And...I want to thank Hiro for the VF2 combo tape he made himself. Geez...Hiro complains that he has no free time, but that's a lie because the tape contained so many combos, both famous and obscure. It's too bad that we did not get a chance to get annihilated by Hiro in VF2....maybe I'll do that in Japan this winter.

    Hiro's cool stuff:
    Insane yomi
    "Mine-throw" (placing the throw, catching the careless forward-dash and dodge)
    Stagger someone -> low-throw (not guaranteed, but he knows that we will crouch)
    Crouch after his high rising kick is blocked (not recommended, but threw me off completely)

    Nelson (Shun, Pai, Kage)
    Among all the players present, I had the greatest trouble against his Shun. I could never catch this annoying old man. Nelson uses almost every move that Shun has, and at the right situation. His Shun will come in, peck a few times with low-P and low-K and see if he can get any openings for the throw or Chowan uppercut. And if he does not get it, he will retreat for a moment and harrs you from the mid-distance. Just when I thought I got him in my flowchart, he is no longer there. Vey clever.

    Nelson is also good at varying his throws. Rarely, people escaped his PG or d/f+PG. At the beginning of matcg, when Shun is not drunk, I'll go for the obvious PG throw escape. His Shun instead goes for d/f+PG and gets guaranteed behind throw, which still gives Shun 5 drink points. Later when you fear the combo from d/f+PG, Nelson does PG throw, adding more to the drink points.

    His Okizeme was great too. Of couse there is obvious u/f+E "cyclone", punishing the rising kicks. When you get scared to stick out the rising kick, he would force the guessing game from: Throw, d+P+K (and 4 more annoying sweeps), f+K+G (high damage, saved Nelson many rounds). You may say all these are basics, but Nelson was able to execute these perhaps the best among us.

    Nelson's cool stuff:
    Semi-machi (his machi is so subtle that I would not notice during the match. But when thinking back why I lost, it became more clear)
    Varying throw (although I could still escape some of his throws, I ate much more, even though Shun's throws are very limited.
    Combo accuracy (many of Shun's combos are stance dependent. Yet Nelson rarely missed Shun's combos. He also has an ability to maximize combo damage in many different terrain situations, something that only a few think and actually do right)
    Okizeme (as mentioned above)

    Sumeragi (Lau)

    Yes, he is still the fastest Lau, with dizzying Korean stepping and flawless sequences of attacks. His style is to confuse you with the fast stepping, and the moment he seizes an opportunity, he deploys Lau's punch moves (PPP, elbow-palms, etc.) and finishes you very quickly.

    He's also playing ever dirtier too. Half back-step -> crouch walk backward -> roundhouse K -> small pounce. To my knowledge, Sumeragi did not use those "dirty" tricks before. And even if I block the roundhouse K, that's not the end of it. Because Lau's roundhouse K is virtually uncounterable, Lau can play the reverse guessing game. I go for the throw, losing to the auto-knife. I do elbow, Lau simply blocks it.

    Sumeragi is also the master of so called advanced defense techniques. G-TE, Dodge-TE-G are the easy ones. But the stuff like: stagger struggle -> K-cancel (my throw will whiff) -> d/f, d/f+PG or Jacky's low-K MC -> (Jacky's elbow or throw) -> Punch-TE (which beats both elbow AND throw). Amazing. Oh one more, stagger struggle -> Dodge-TE-G (which avoids both slow attacks and escapes one of the throws, very useful against Kage's d+K+G/throw guessing game after the stagger).

    What else...his flawless execution of Uramawari techniques. You just cannot side-roll against his Lau because you are sure to be punished. I felt this especially after eating Lau's d/f, d/f+PG throw. My energy is low, so I will die if Lau stomps me. So my last hope is to side-roll to avoid the stomp. But the hope is only an illusion because Sumeragi will not fail to do Ura and double-palm/TA-punch for overkill.

    I saw that he was having problem against Hiro's Wolf. But it's just maybe Lau vs. Wolf thing. In my opinion, Lau is sure to have a big problem against Wolf with good defense. Elbow blocked -> 100pts guessing game. Throwing fuzzy guarding player is difficult. And Lau's sweep (f,d+K), Lau's only useful low attack, opens up for major punishment if blocked.

    Sumeragi's cool stuff:
    Advanced defense techniques
    Uramawari
    Fast stepping
    Lau's mad rush (when there is an opening)

    Ice-9 (Kage, Aoi, Taka)
    One things strikes me about his Kage: consistency of TFT combo. I, too, can do those TFT combos, but not at the rate Jeff can. After perishing against his Kage, you would realize how powerful Kage's TFT combos are. A simple b+PG command takes almost as much as Giant Swing and carries long distance for the ringout. He was also very consistent with vs. Aoi TFT combo (famous TFT -> Knee -> P -> b+K+G -> Kage-yaiba). Every time he went for it, he succeeded, as far as I saw.

    His Aoi is fast and looks very sophisticated. A lot of G-canceling, reversals at good success rate, Uramawari, just the way how Aoi meant to be played. Aoi's uramawari is not so easy to do either because it often involves 2 CD-cancel away from the screen. Hiro and I play Aoi too but more straightforward...or boring, frankly (as my Aoi strategy revolves around mid-kick and throws, which is still effective...but...). I can recommend Jeff's Aoi for any new learner who wants to see what's possible with her.

    He also plays Taka (I think he likes to use those underplayed characters). His Taka utilizes fast stepping and almost unending PPPs sequeces. But if I am to suggest something, Jeff's Taka should use more high-risk&high-return moves, such as Push (3 different kinds). I say that because Taka eventually faces his limitation when going against Jacky, Lau and such. He should trust his yomi and goes for BIG, something Jacky or Kage does not have.

    I hope Jeff is still alive as he had to face 2 midterms on the day when he returned, possibly much more formidable than his VF enemies in Omaha....

    Jeff's cool stuff:
    Consistent TFT combos
    Fast stepping
    Ability to become "bitch" (Jeff usually plays very clean game; but he can also choose not to. I still cannot forget the Lion vs. Taka match, eith countless low punches from both sides).

    OK...I'm running out of steam as of now, and have to postpone my analisys of Omaha players as well as myself. Meanwhile, any sorts of questions/comments about the players are welcome; I'll try to answer them as much as possible from my memory.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    regarding jeff and his tft combos:

    it's on the DC...so they don't count.

    =) (but almost serious)
     
  3. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: TFT Consistency

    I meant more for the success rate of getting TFT -> "good" knee.

    The stuff like Knee -> P -> PPK -> slide is still hard to do, I think, even on the DC version (extra P for the DC version). And...*grin*...I saw "someone" missing the last slide (getting K instead) 2 out of 3 attempts, at the NY gathering too.

    Oh well, I cannot get this combo myself on a consistent basis; so I really do not have the right to judge Kage player, I guess.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: TFT Consistency

    no, you're right, actually getting the knee correctly is equally difficult (or easy) in both versions. but when it comes to getting the slide to a) come out and b) hit, the arcade version is damn near impossible. also tft, b+K+G, P, DP (or df+K+G) is absurdly easier. let me just put it this way: knee PPK slide in arcade is far more difficult than it is to land knee P,PPK slide on the DC.

    and yeah yeah, that run high kick comes because i try to cut the run as short as possible...
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    -->Hiro::
    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>


    Sumeragi especially feared this and always stayed a stride away from Wolf (but again, Lau vs. Wolf is a tough match-up for Lau).


    <hr></blockquote>

    [​IMG] but, but i was too scared! What can i do? I do Downknife+P, Wolf GS ; i do downknife ppd+K, Wolf low side throw ; i do downknife ppp delay lowsweep, Wolf Knee interrupt high pounce (Hiro's "HuuHmpf !!" fav. humiliation combo [​IMG]; i do downknife ppp, Wolf GS.


    Whatever i do Hiro always seem to know. My Yomi is just so inferior compare to him so i have no other choice but to stay as far as possible.


    --> Nelson ::

    Actually i don't think Nelson play much machi, and most surprisingly he doesn't abuse low kick too much neither. Pretty damn clean Shun if you ask me [​IMG]


    Rodney seems to have the most trouble against him heheh, it is just funny to see Rodney's reaction cuz he is the most loyal "in your face fighting" lover, and just picture a extremely annoyed Jeffrey trying to catch the oldman all over the ring heheh [​IMG]


    ah, also Nelson and me actually played death match for 30 games straight, 15-15 a piece heheheh. I think i would have lost if we play more cuz my emotion started to get the better of me later on.


    --> Shota ::

    Shota you seem to have improve much more than the rest of us (i really donno how since you don't have dc nor players to play with). I think you are the closest one to Hiro now since you seem to be the only one that can cause Hiro some trouble when he is playing for real (ah, also Jeff's merciless ninja)


    --> Me :
    <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>


    He's also playing ever dirtier too. Half back-step -> crouch walk backward -> roundhouse K -> small pounce. To my knowledge, Sumeragi did not use those "dirty" tricks before.


    <hr></blockquote>


    Heheh, yeah i am falling into the dark side as well (and you are in the deepest pit of the hole SHota !! [​IMG]). Just can't resist the sweetness of the rising roundhouse, safe/hard to see/long range mid/nice dmg/+easiness to combine with machi tactics (!). What more can you ask ! [​IMG]
     
  6. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Omaha Report 2

    I still have to study for today's test, but oh well, I guess I'll take a break and give my quick impressions on the Omaha players!

    Shota hit it right on the nose--everybody all of sudden became sooo much better defensively. I found it harder than ever to throw/hit opponents, and a lot of the matches were spent poking and stepping about trying to get an opening.

    HIRO

    Ahhhh, the famous Hiro yomi!! I had some really intense matches with Hiro--imagine Kage vs Wolf, on Taka-arashi stage. Yep, ONE mistake, and it's Ring Out baby! Very, very intense. Almost like instant death game; the whole match was one big game of "Let's see who can throw the other first". Extremely unnerving.

    I've discovered something playing against Hiro, especially with Kage. It's almost like a game of probability that's hard to win...especially on that Taka stage, where it's almost understood between the two of us that the REAL challenge is trying to out-yomi one another and get that first throw in. It's almost if anything else is extraneous--TFT or Giant Swing--whoever could pull it off first is considered the winner, despite whatever really happens in terms of the health bar.

    Think of it this way: Hiro does two things. If you dash in, he will Giant Swing you. If you crouch dash in, he will low throw you. It's almost 50/50. 50% x 100 pts damage (GS) + 50% x 70 pts damage (low throw) = 85 pts. Now, take Kage. His 50/50 game is more like TFT or elbow-- TFT combo ~ 100 pts damage, and elbow, whose damage is neglible but gives another opportunity for a TFT/middle attack game. The problem is that when I stagger Hiro, instead of Hiro playing safe, he usually reapplies the 50/50 game: GS or low throw. True, true, I could play safe and go for a heel kick, but then I would be admitting defeat. Heh heh heh...I know, it's kinda crazy. /images/icons/crazy.gif

    SHOTA

    Ahhh, Shota, he has completely fallen to the dark side. His Kage, Lau, Lion, and to a lesser extent, Jacky as well. The only real adjective for Shota's style is EVIL, and boy do I love him for it!!! /images/icons/cool.gif Think PPP, multiple low punchs, half step backwards, crouch walk backwards, Lion's moonwalk, heh heh, anything to kill the opponent. Shota plays dirty, and he really forces you to concentrate; if you want to beat him, you'd have to out-yomi him or out-dirty him (quite impossible, I'm telling you), and this is why I love playing Shota. The guy really toughens you up as a player.

    The great thing about Shota's evil style is that he combines yomi with dirtiness. Take this sequence for example. Shota's Lion's back was towards the edge of the ring in Taka stage but was too far away to be in danger of R.O. His Lion d/f+P+G Rodney's Jeffry. Instead of going for two hits, however, he Es so that his Lion faces Jeffry at the shortest distance to the edge of the ring (remember that Taka's stage is circular). Rodney meanwhile struggles with Jeffry so he won't get caught with a combo that he was expecting from the d/f+P+G, allowing Shota to f+P,P without harm. Rodney blocks the elbow-poke, but is now pushed right to the edge of the ring. Shota had purposely done the d/f+P+G as a tactic to R.O. the opponent!

    Take this other example as a scary mix of evilness and yomi that I've come to associate with Shota. He was playing Nelson's Shun with Lion on Pai stage. He had knocked Shun down towards the edge of the ring. For some strange reason or another, he did a u/f+K that was obviously not going to connect. An opportunity almost too good to be true, Nelson went for a d/f+P+G combo in an attempt to ring Shota's Lion out. Well, it was a trap, and Nelson fell for it. Shota had escaped Shun's d/f+P+G, and if you'd recall, the escape animation pushes Shun away. Nelson didn't get rung out, but he was very close to it. Thus, Shota had u/f+K on purpose, knowing it would not connect, in anticipation of the d/f+P+G so he could escape it and try to R.O. Nelson's Shun! Dirty, evil, and brilliant!

    SUMERAGI

    Mike's Lau, still the fastest and most dangerous in the nation. His Lau is now a lot less predictable and a lot more annoying. It's amazing at how effective E -> d/f+P,P,P could be! It takes off a ton of damage, and if it hits, is very safe.

    One thing I kept falling for was his b,b+P -> d+K. With this, Lau's b,b+P is very, very difficult to punish, and Mike used this to his advantage. However, it did unexpectedly pay off dividends for the opponent, as sometimes Mike does the b,b+P -> d+K during successful ura situations when he should be going for a b,b+P, d+P,P,P,d+K combo instead.

    I do think however that not enough people give Sumeragi credit for the other characters that he uses. His Lau is not the only character he knows how to play! Sumeragi's Akira, Aoi, Jacky, among several others are all very deadly.

    GHETTO-SHUN

    To be honest, my success against Nelson's Shun fluctuates a lot. Sometimes I feel like I have him figured out, sometimes I feel helpless against his Shun. Shota and Sumeragi's description of Nelson's Shun are completely accurate; his Shun is very difficult to hit and it's very difficult to play the way you want to with his Shun. Nelson has a great combination of offense and defense, and very stylistic. He is one of the few players that I know that uses all of their character's moves, and the really impressive thing is that Nelson seems to know how to use each and every one of them.

    Nelson was experimenting a lot with Shun's options while his back is turned to the opponent. It's really fun to watch him play around with d+K+E, P+K,(P), rolls, back dash, etc. to harrass the opponent in an effort to get the butt throw in. He's also the first Shun I've seen to regularly incorporate the b,b+P -> d+K+E -> butt throw as an okizeme tactic.

    One thing I can't get over about Nelson's Shun is his amazing ability in using Shun's D,f+P. Every time he uses this move it connects! I shake my head every time this happens to me...I'm usually very hesitant to use the move since it's rather slow and very punishable.

    RODNEY

    Rodney's Jeffry has improved a lot, largely because he no longer focuses so much on getting the low side throw in, although he still gets his fare share. Overall, his Jeffry became a lot smarter. He's one of the few players that I've met that somehow seems to be able to consistently get a Splash Mountain while I'm fighting with him up close. Usually I'm able to adjust when I know the opponent is trying to throw me out of an escape, but with Rodney it's quite difficult.

    The thing that Rodney has to concentrate on his not letting an opponent's machi/defense bother him. I can tell he gets annoyed too easily and that affects the way he plays. Towards the end of the gathering though, I could tell that he was getting used to it, and he was even doing some machi on his own! I see this as a positive development, as I've always thought that Jeffry is reliant on good defense to be able to compete with the faster characters.

    NUTLOG

    Jason had a great showing with his Sarah. I never really had an opportunity to play with Jason before at NYG, so this was really my first time playing against him. Nutlog has a good grasp of the fundamentals, and his Sarah combos were spot on.

    Nutlog uses the moonsault very, very well. Usually, most Sarah players are rather obvious with their moonsault and it's a simple matter of adjusting to it. Nutlog, however, seems to know when to moonsault when you least expect it and knows how to take advantage of the situation and punish you for it.

    However, there is one thing that I noticed about Nutlog--he has difficulty in finishing. I would notice him getting 2-0 but somehow losing three rounds in a row. It almost seems as though his Sarah becomes less deadly when winning. This is probably more psychological than anything, and surely, with more experience in competitive play, his Sarah won't go soft.

    Overall, a very solid Sarah player. It's really too bad Nutlog could only play with us for one day and a half.

    TROY

    Troy played Pai, Akira, and Lion during the gathering, but I really only remember his Lion, which reminded me a lot about Ed's Lion. Aside from the standard Lion fare (PP, f+P,P, etc.), the one thing that really struck me about his Lion is his frequent use of d+P+E, both in okizeme and normal battle.

    The d+P+E moves Lion very well around the axis, and that, coupled with Lion stage, made Troy's Lion very difficult to hit or throw.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: TFT Consistency

    Well, I do think Shota exaggerated a bit...I missed the knee quite a lot during the gathering! I'm really usually more consistent with it, but when I know my Kage's life depends on the TFT, my fingers fudge a bit and I usually mess up the timing. /images/icons/frown.gif

    I don't necessarily agree, however, that the TFT -> knee -> P -> b+K+G -> DP combo is easier to do on the Dreamcast. On Sarah and Pai, I do agree that the combo is easier on the DC (heck, the combo was impossible in the arcade against Sarah and Pai). Against, Aoi, however, it's really quite difficult. A perfect knee pushes Aoi quite far and my P frequently cannot connect.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  8. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: Dirty play with Lion

    I don't understand why everyone calls me EVIL. I thought I was known as a "nice person" or whatever. If anything, I take the greatest joy in tricking/out-witting my opponent. My main purpose of playing this game is how I can trap people into my set ups.

    He had knocked Shun down towards the edge of the ring. For some strange reason or another, he did a u/f+K that was obviously not going to connect.

    Well, my logic in doing u/f+K is that, if you are by the edge of the ring, you would want to roll-forward or roll-sideway to stay away from the edge, right? So I did u/f+K to punish the roll-forward, pushing my opponent farther for RO. Nelson unfortunately side-rolled and blocked my u/f+PG. Which led to the above situation Jeff described.

    Another of my favorite mind tricks is when Lion and other are by the edge of the ring, but aliging parallel to the edge. In this situation, many people often forget about the RO, as RO does not seem to be an immediate danger. Well, Lion's f,f+PG and f,f+K+G pushes the opponent sideway to his front leg. So If Lion's front foot is facing the outside of the ring, Lion gets very easy but stylish RO.

    In the same parallel situation, Lion can do d/f+PG. Lion and the other switch places but are still parallel to the edge. The opponenet, fearing the RO, wants to stay safe. So he dodges toward the center of the ring, now facing the outside of the ring. On the hand, Lion can dodge toward the edge, now his back is facing the outside. Lion can cancel his dodge and go for yet another d/f+PG. Lion and the other switch places...and...voila!, now Lion and the opponent are perpendicular to the edge, with Lion right behind the opponent, who is now facing the outside of the ring. After all these, Lion can then go for the guaranteed combo to ring out the opponent, tasting the sweetness.

    This last stuff about d/f+PG is not my original, and the idea came from Chibita. I'm sorry that the description became complicated. This last trick worked against Hiro's Wolf during the Omaha gathering. Too bad that there was no one else around....
     
  9. ghetto-SHUN

    ghetto-SHUN Well-Known Member

    Shota has a right to be defensive. His style seems very clean to me as well.
    Only thing really dirty about shota is the fact that he plays JACKY! (HEE HEE).
    KIDDING OFCOURSE.
     
  10. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Shota, my man, it's evil in a good way!!

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  11. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Re: Dirty play with Lion

    In the same parallel situation, Lion can do d/f+PG. Lion and the other switch places but are still parallel to the edge. The opponenet, fearing the RO, wants to stay safe. So he dodges toward the center of the ring, now facing the outside of the ring. On the hand, Lion can dodge toward the edge, now his back is facing the outside. Lion can cancel his dodge and go for yet another d/f+PG. Lion and the other switch places...and...voila!

    What a lovely little sequence! But what if your opponent cancelled their dodge with a crouch dash, while you cancelled your dodge, and attempted another df+P+G? The result is your Lion whiffs the throw and is potentially rung out instead! Embarrassing /images/icons/wink.gif

    I don't know if anyone recalls my idea that we come up with set of attack sequences to make an alternative introduction to TB, but the kind of thing Shota described would be perfect.

    But damn that is nasty! Strategies like these deserve to be labelled "evil", but as Jeff already mentioned, and similarly for Bastard Kage's, the connotations of such labels are all good! /images/icons/wink.gif

    __
    Myke
     
  12. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    Re: A risk taker

    But what if your opponent cancelled their dodge with a crouch dash, while you cancelled your dodge, and attempted another df+P+G?

    Ah...it would not work, would it? That's the risk you have to take to be called "cool" though, *grin*

    Usually, though, if we are by the edge of the ring, we usually tend to be conservative and have our brains frozen. That's one thing I've noticed. As a result, the success rate for this sequence to work is higher by the edge of the ring, rather than at the center of the ring (then, if you are in the center, why would the opponent dodge at the first place, right?)
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: TFT Consistency

    well, P, b+K+G, DP isn't as drastically easier as ppk slide is. however, in my experience on the DC, if you got the P, b+K+G to connect the DP was seemingly always going to hit. in the arcade the DP seems to have a much better chance of whiffing than hitting, especially if there's even the slightest angulation (down or up).
     
  14. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: TFT Consistency

    Really? For me, in the arcade, as long as the b+K+G connected, the DP always connected, at least against Aoi. Not sure about angulation though...I usually only go for the combo if I'm sure it'll connect (i.e. on flat ground).

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  15. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: TFT Consistency

    Weird thing is, this combo can actually be performed on all mid and light characters. In VF3 ob, I have done this succesfully against Jacky (during the NYCrew visit!). On the Dc, I have never got it on anyone except the girls. I have yet to see it connect against lion or shun...I wonder if things have changed a bit...probably. ;)

    Cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     

Share This Page