Opening Moves

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ken, Jan 14, 2002.

  1. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    The first series of moves you do at the start of each round can either win or lose you the round in most instances. I'm just interested what sort of opening round strategies you guys use. Variations etc with certain players.

    Usually your options are:
    jab, sidekick, dash throw, duck counter, sabaki, dodge attack, fast middle attack.

    Here are some of mine:
    Lei Fei:
    -------------------
    df,df,p,p
    low risk extremely high return. 30-40% combo if successful. Good if opponent jabs or does slower move

    df/du,p+k,p
    dodging attack for extremely fast sidekicks. Sets up tiger stance which usually is a good thing.

    (MD)p+k
    I do this if i anticipate the opponent to dash back. Sets up a stagger for another 30-40% combo.

    QCFp+k | b, f,p+k
    vs jab. Opponent will crumple on both. Good vs players who like to open with jab.

    u/f k+g
    anti sweep

    d, k+g followed by df,df,p,p or df,df, throw
    sweep

    Lion
    ---------

    QCB+p
    sabaki vs high/mid. for f,f,k,k combo

    b,b,k,p+k | b,b,k,d+p
    high risk fairly quick... not good if opponent like to side kick start

    b,f,p+k
    nice interrupting punch. This punch is faster but other peoples punches. Sets up his iniative.

    f+p or f+k
    standard elbow, fairly fast but akiras fff+p and aoi's df+k seems faster.

    df, df +p | df, df, f + pg
    risky move to gamble for float or throw. If opponent dash back or jabs.

    d+kg
    sweep
     
  2. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Lei Fei:

    df,df,p,p
    low risk extremely high return. 30-40% combo if successful. Good if opponent jabs or does slower move


    Not exactly low risk -- df,df+P,P is throw counterable. But df,df+P is a good option, because it ducks under many moves, and if you MC, you can throw.


    df/du,p+k,p
    dodging attack for extremely fast sidekicks. Sets up tiger stance which usually is a good thing.


    I like to use df/du+P+K,P too... but... if you're playing against opponents who know how to play against Lei, moving into Tiger stance is very dangerous for Lei.


    (MD)p+k
    I do this if i anticipate the opponent to dash back. Sets up a stagger for another 30-40% combo.


    Scorpion P+K is definitely worthwhile if the opponent dashes back or crouch dashes back, but the stagger does not allow you to combo into anything else if the opponent knows how to struggle and DTEG properly. Worth a shot, though, since Scorpion P+K is uncounterable anyway.


    QCFp+k | b, f,p+k
    vs jab. Opponent will crumple on both. Good vs players who like to open with jab.

    Hmm. Interesting... I should try this out, particularly b,f+P+K (good reward if it connects). QCF+P+K, OTOH, is high risk low reward, and doesn't sabaki a lot of things, so I personally stay away from it.
     
  3. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    Hi Pal, can i say that its better to d/b,d/b (back dash) for the 1st few seconds of the opening? It escapes a d/f+K type of attacks and even Akira's dashing elbow 'might' not reach (i believe)
     
  4. alantan

    alantan Well-Known Member

    I think the d/f+p+k,p is back throwable when blocked. read this somewhere. Is it true? If it is true, VERY DANGEROUS move right?
     
  5. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    df+P+K,P is indeed back throwable, but the timing is very strict -- you have to input the throw command *immediately* after you block the bodycheck component, otherwise you'll get hit by a followup P or K and get KDed or staggered respectively. Also, if Lei uses df+P+K,P to avoid your move, you're probably not going to get the back throw in time because you're recovering from a move yourself.

    But yeah, Lei players cannot abuse Tiger Stance all the time, otherwise you'll get tagged by people who know how to play against him.
     
  6. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    However, doing this all the time just results in your opponent adapting. A quick dash is all that is needed to mess you up. Prepare to be low thrown be anyone with one. Mix it up, that's your best bet.

    My personal favourites are
    1. PK or PPG
    2. Wolf's dodge throw
    3. dash forward and throw/low throw
    4. crouch
     
  7. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I'm gonna post more of a general comment on the Opening instead of specific actions here....

    I'm glad there's an opening thread. I've commented in private on a personal level that the Opening is a very important, but overlooked element in VF. It's good for someone to bring it up.

    When I was in Vancouver, it was sometimes the one element that held a good player back in their game, and sometimes the momentum of the round would be pushed towards the winner of the opener. I wouldn't say it could make or break a round, but the significance to me lies in material(lifebar) advantage and how the flow of frame advantages plays in VF4.

    Anyways, my approach to the Opening tries to be more top-down. I try to look at the General Options first, and then I also factor in the specific options that make my opponent's character unique to another and how my character can handle that. I'll just mention the general way I look at the opening. I could probably make it more complicated than what I list here, but I want to try to keep it somewhat simple. Due to how simple this categorization is, it is likely there is some crossover in options (some options counting as two or more categories).

    *Passive-Safety
    No attempt for the initiative or any direct conflict, but a way to achieve space in a manner that handles most of the opponent's options. Keep in mind that some characters have good options against backdashers.

    *Passive-Direct
    My example here would be to simply defend in a close to normal manner against the opponent's attack and try to capture a form of advantage that way.

    *Passive-Indirect
    An indirect defensive tactic in which you try to find a way around your opponent's assertive advance. Examples include dodging, special dodges, and hopping.

    *Assertive-Safety
    Performing a move that is relatively safe as an attack from the opening distance. This move can be considered safe by dealing specifically with the majority of the opponent's options or it can be a general use move that usually beats out all moves. It will almost always be some attack that leaves very little disadvantage.

    *Assertive-Direct
    Performing a move which directly attacks the opponent to grab the initiative, generally trying to win the situation immediately.

    *Assertive-Indirect
    Performing an attack with intentions that are not necessarily for winning the situation immediately. Often setting up another offense or intending to apply an uncomfortable pressure on the opponent. Sometimes an attack that is used to maneuver around an expected incoming attack by the opponent.

    Anyways, this a simplified list of categorized tactical opening options that I consider when I play the opening. It may seem obvious to some, hogwash to others, but in my experience, even experienced players--or players that even have good reputation have neglected the concept of the opening options. Often times, it makes them predictable enough to abuse them quickly.

    -Chanchai
     
  8. LAU Abuser

    LAU Abuser Well-Known Member

    I agree wif u. Dun be mistaken that i always do that... Juz that i prefer to d/b,d/b when fighting a new opponent... Juz to see wat are their opening moves n capitalise on the next round or 2... Thanks for the advice. I use Lau and Jeff most of the time. Any advice for them?
     
  9. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    Re: Opening Moves Lion VF4

    /versus/images/icons/smile.gif always enjoyed having a arsenal of opening moves.
    Lion VF4 Round Openers I enjoy (mixing it up)... about a dozen options:

    <font color=blue>xaxak</font color=blue> of No Mercy Club and others have recently employed:
    <>u+K as an opener and u+K after a small back step.
    ... never tried b,b+K . I agree Ken, high risk.
    Never tried f+K. Distance problems. Requires Yomi skills of a jin, no?

    Opening moves and gambits from the best world-wide:
    <a target="_blank" href=http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Starters.html>http://www.geocities.com/nycat.geo/Starters.html</a>
    <font color=purple>"I don't make it a HABIT of fighting the ELDERLY."</font color=purple>
     
  10. Mr. Noisy

    Mr. Noisy Well-Known Member

    hmm..
    I normally use either back crouch dash or back dash...prefer starting a match from mid range
     
  11. ken

    ken Well-Known Member

    Hey Lau-abuser,

    I guess theres no correct answer. But back dashing is one of the many options. I find it very intriguing the opening move of different players/characters.

    The opening move is a classic example of a Rock, Paper Scissors scenario. Every character usually has several power flowcharts that can be executed. But in all instances there is always risk and gain depending if you won/lost the mind game.

    Apart from the obvious health/life advantage the pychological one is also significant. The gains/risk of executing the correct/wrong opening move reflects on the temperament of yourself and the opponent.

    I guess the purpose of this post is maybe a rough discussion on what options different characters have and styles their users like employing.

    So if any Jacky, Shun, Lau, Jeffrey, Wolf users out there lets hear some of your opening strategies!
     
  12. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Well, this is what I remember from the local guys here...
    Lonelyfighter's Shun openings:
    Chouwan -> d/f+P+K, P,K
    Mule kick -> f+P+K,
    CD/Dash -> throw,
    low punch -> throw

    Troy's Lion openings:
    P+K (I think, it's the two-hand high poke that causes KD)
    Meteor punch -> CD, f+P -> d/f+P,P -> u/f+K
    CD, f+P+G -> f,f+K,K (optional second set) or b/f+K+G, u/b+P
    low punch -> f+P
    u+P+K

    Rodney's Jeff openings:
    dodge, XPD
    low punch
    shot knee
    CD back -> knee

    Rodney's Wolf openings:
    b+K+G (just cause he loves the stunner)

    My Aoi openings:
    YY -> dodge
    High reversal/TE (not too good with DTE)
    Mid reversal/TE (ditto)
    b,b+P+K -> P,P,P,K
    b,f+P hit throw
    CD back, f+K+G, P -> f+K,K on P hit or low throw
    CD, f+P+G -> ground throw

    My Sarah openings:
    P -> throw
    b,b+K (that's for the Toronto gang :p)
    P, d+K
    d+K+G -> On MC switch -> FL Kickflip Else, CD back
    f+P, d/f+P
    P+K, 270 throw
     
  13. UnCauzi

    UnCauzi Well-Known Member

    I've noticed that players here generally back up for an opening except for the Lion player who uses "insert quick knockdown movement here" u+p, though just punches are pretty common if someone does open here though.
     
  14. Blondie

    Blondie Well-Known Member

    This was a cool idea for a thread, I must agree now after reading the extent of this thread and watching numerous vids that the "opening" is one of if not the most critical points of the match. Here are my Jacky Openers:From Most used to least used due to % of success.

    1) BackDash BKnuckle
    2) Elbow,Backfist,lowkick
    3) BCDash, b+G+K
    4) Low backfist delayed sweep or followed elbow if hits.
    5) Downforward G+K if I know they are going high or slow mid
    6) :RiskY: FCDash Backdiagnal P+K,k,k,k, low or high if hits it's a nice way to get intimidation going from the start.
     
  15. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    My Sarah openings:
    P -> throw
    b,b+K (that's for the Toronto gang :p)
    P, d+K
    d+K+G -> On MC switch -> FL Kickflip Else, CD back
    f+P, d/f+P
    P+K, 270 throw


    The d+K punt kick interrupts a surprising number of opening attacks for a knock down. Jacky's ff+K is also a good opening move.

    P+K into flamingo flow chart is good. Good range and a sabaki attack.

    Forget about the d+K+G shin slicer! It just takes too long to recover. If the shin slicer gets you a normal hit, Sarah can still be thrown! I don't think it's worth the risk for the chance for a MC combo, especially with such a reletively slow attack. The df+K+G sweep is a better option IMO, but neither is really a good round opening move.

    If I'm fighting an opponent that is very defensive/machi and likes to open by dashing backwards, forward dash into the uf+P+G catch throw is a good opener.

    Also, in general, I like to dodge if I expect an aggressive opponent to use a longer range straight attack like Akira's super dashing elbow, Jacky's punt kick, or anyone's sidekick to open a round.
     
  16. UnCauzi

    UnCauzi Well-Known Member

    After some more thought here are some of my openers..

    1. elbow
    2. low punch
    3. whatever quick mega countering float move the character I'm playing at the time has.
    4. throw.
    5. backup.
     
  17. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    What he said.
     
  18. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    <font color=white>Playing Aki</font color=white> :

    1. CD back
    2. CD forward, Throw | Break guard -> standing palm -> insert combo
    3. step back, standing dbl plm -> insert combo
    4. hammer punch (d/f+P+K+G) -> P, BC ->OR->R-TE (Just messing with their psych game. Ppl usually give me a high check shot/knee/elbow instead of throwing though. Basically its demoralising for the opponent)
    5. P, K[G], shrm -> insert a combo
    6. Evading body check
    7. Mid-Rev
    8. step back, standing palm -> insert combo
    9. single palm, dblplm
    10. step back, crashing tiger palm -> insert combo on MC | Throw
    11. step forward, inashi, spod

    <font color=white>Playing Wolf</font color=white> :


    1. screw shot -> insert combo if MC
    2. K, K, DTE (again, voluntary bad positioning for demoralising purposes -> Doesnt work on scrubs well though, works better on vets)
    3. sledgehammer punch (usually mod input d/f,d/f, f + P)
    4. CD back
    5. CD forward, Throw
    6. One hand chop ( f+P+K) -> bridge bomb | knee
    7. Tomahawk Chop -> Neck whip
    8. P, K[G] -> 270 KS | sidestep catch
    9. swat elbow -> pickup -> heavy yomi game /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif
    10. Block /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    I'll do Kage later...Dont feel like typing anymore
     

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