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Opinion on playing VF at a competitive level

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by akai, Jul 1, 2007.

  1. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Based on every action you take or do not take will lead to various situations.

    Listed below is how I categorise the various situations that can happen in VF, based on frame differences.

    Even Situations – Both players have no frame advantage or disadvantage against each other. In general, strikes < guard, guard < throws, and throws < strikes.

    Small Frame Difference(SmFD) Situations – the disadvantage player’s fastest attack can beat the opposing player’s fastest mid attack. Disadvantage player can avoid throws by ducking underneath the throw attempt or by striking the opponent with a non-clashable strike. Depending on the character matchups, this situation occurs at ±3 frames or less conditions.

    Medium Frame Difference(MeFD) Situations – the disadvantage player’s fastest attack cannot beat the opposing player’s fastest mid attack. Disadvantage player is still able to avoid throws by ducking underneath the throw attempt or by striking the opponent with a non-clashable strike. Depending on the character matchups, this situation occurs between ±2 to ±6 frames conditions.

    Large Frame Difference(LaFD) Situations – the disadvantage player cannot avoid throws by ducking underneath the throw attempt. Non-clashable strikes can still be used to beat throw attempts. Depending on the character matchups, this situation occurs between ±7 to ±11 frame situations.

    Guaranteed Damage Situations – the disadvantage player is unable to defend against opposing player’s strikes or beat out opposing player’s throw attempts. Throw damage can be avoided with correct throw escape input. Depending on the characters, guaranteed damage situation can occur at ±9 frames or higher. Guaranteed throw situations occur at ±12 frames or higher.

    Having knowledge of

    1) the situation you and your opponent are in (listed above),
    2) the options available not only to you but also your opponent at these situations,
    3) the advantages and disadvantages of each option, and finally
    4) deduce what "tendencies" your opponent do in the situation,

    will allow you to decide on what action to take.

    The stuff listed above is not new. I consider myself a medium level VFer attempting to improve my VFing to a higher level. It is just some way (at least to me) I try to approach the game and that I think will improve my VFing. Maybe it will help you in getting better at the game or maybe you think it is the wrong way to approach the game. If so, please add criticism or additional insights on how you think one can play VF at a higher level.
     
  2. Makatiel

    Makatiel Well-Known Member

    Great post.

    Two things you might want to mention:

    1) 0 frame throws and how they affect even frame situations
    2) DMs and OMs in light of frame advantage / disadvantage
     
  3. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I'll take a lot of other people's input over mine, but here's my take:

    1) It's covered because in even frame situations, the throw beats guard and doing nothing and 0-frame throws doesn't change this too much, imo. It changes the timing of the throw escape required, however.

    1a) Something 0-frame throw covers really well, however, is mC situations. Throwing someone during the recovery frames of a whiffed attack (emphasis on "whiffed"). However, the bottom line is still that a throw works really well (and always has) on someone who has whiffed an attack.

    2) DM is generally a good option in disadvantage. It's generally bad to do when you have an advantage situation (and with some exception). It's not great to do during a neutral situation.

    3) OM is generally a decent option if you have an advantage AND you have some range. It can be an okay option during neutral situations as well. You generally don't want to do it when you are at a disadvantage because you could get hit or thrown out of it--and your opponent is likely to attack when you are at a disadvantage.

    A couple notes in response to Akai:

    I'm confused with the ranges for SmFD and MeFD. Shouldn't MeFD start at 4 instead of 2?

    The way I would express the dynamics of throw-clash differently from Akai is that I would state where the clashable attacks can occur more clearly. This isn't a perfect explanation when we're using ranges, but I'll go with the flow of Akai's categories:

    "The greater the disadvantage you are in, the more likely your opponent's throw will clash with your attack--unless it is an unclashable attack."

    At Even situation, a clashable attack would have to have an execution time of 26 frames or greater to clash with a simultaneously executed throw. 12 < (("26"/2 rounded down) + 0) = Use an attack that's faster than 26 frames to beat clash.

    At Small disadvantage, you will want to use fairly fast attacks or unclashable attacks to beat a throw. 12 < (( "20"/2 rounded down) + 3) = Use an attack that's 19 frames or faster to beat clash.

    At Medium disadvantage, you will want to use your fastest attacks or unclashable attacks to beat a throw. 12 < (("14"/2 rounded down) + 6 = Use an attack that's 13 frames or faster to beat a clash.

    At Large disadvantage, you will want to use only your unclashable attacks to beat a throw. 12 < (("11"/2 rounded down) + 7 = At best (-7 disadvantage), a 10 or 11 frame unclashable attack will beat a throw--but that's it. And this is only at best, the option gets eliminated in worse disadvantages.

    At Guaranteed Disadvantage, only a throw escape will beat a throw.

    -Chanchai
     
  4. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    There are multiple ways of categorizing different situations in VF. The categories in the original post are based on what I believe are fundamental game mechanics of VFâ€â€

    1) fastest attacks (aka standing punch), “universally†non-clashable (low punch!): 9-12 frame attacks depending on character.
    2) fastest mid-attacks (aka the “standard†14 frame mid) 13-15 frame range mid attacks depending on your character ??
    3) throws

    In other words, I am categorizing the various situations by “high priority†moves shared by characters. By having some sort of “standard†categorization of the various situations in the game, discussion of positive and negative aspects of options (such as DM and OM commented by Makatiel and Chanchai) can be better appreciated and more efficiently used during fights.

    Depending on character matchups, it is different. For example, let us use Pai versus Jeffry.

    Pai – fastest attack (10 frames), fastest mid attack (14 frames)
    Jeffry – fastest attack (12 frames), fastest mid attack (14 frames)

    In this matchup

    Pai Disadvantage Situations against Jeffry
    SmD -1 to -3
    MeD -4 to -6
    LaD -7 to -11
    Guaranteed -12 and above

    Jeffry Disadvantage Situations against Pai
    SmD -1
    MeD -2 to -6
    LaD -7 to -9
    Guaranteed -10 and above
     
  5. Garbage

    Garbage Well-Known Member

    Do you think it's possible to differentiate between moves that your opponent has pre-empted compared to moves that he's reacting to, and if these situations can be broken down in any way, because it seems like this time window is possibly one of the largest grey areas, but also one of the major intuitions that make a great player?
     
  6. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    I'm not entirely sure I understand your sentence. Overall, the person who plays aggressive will have more advantage over the person who plays passive.
     

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