Option Select and YOU!

Using a big attack during ATE is definitely a legitimate strategy.

I'll explain a bit of the value behind using standing P in ATE. Sometimes the opponent is delaying to see what you are going to do because they are expecting ATE. The advantage of using just a standing P is that if they are guarding, your P will be blocked giving you +1. Of course, this can be defeated by a simple low punch, or any buffered counter attacks.

But like what Sanjuro said, if you think they will try a long command throw or delayed attack, using a big launcher like Akira's knee in ATE can be devastating.

 

Sitauation:

Jacky does +, leaves you at -10

Jeffrey decides to delay a knee banking on the ETEG.

Jacky buffer's lp and then breaks + throw.

the lp MC's jeffrey's delayed attempt to knee

Situation #2

Jacky does +, leaves you at -10

Jeffrey decides to try + throw after being suprised by the +.

Jacky buffer's lp and then breaks + throw.

the lp MC's jeffry's delayed throw attempt.

Situation #3

Jacky does +, leaves you at -10

Jeffrey expects the + and buffers his throw in time to get a successful + throw

Jacky buffer's lp and then breaks + throw

Jeffrey's throw gets broken.

Situation #4

Jacky does +, leaving him at -10

Jeffrey decides to do absolutely nothing

Jacky buffers lp and breaks + throw

Jeffrey blocks lp

 

New situation

SOOOO many times players in the US find themselves ETEG'ing flawlessly only to dodge and get a throw delayed on them after inputting beautifully timed throw escapes.

Fact: a dodge takes approximately 27 frames.

If a player decides to delay a throw at the end of your dodge, your beginning TE's will not apply. How does one beat this without inputting MORE TE's at the end OR ETEG'ing again?

Solution: ETE+dodge attack, dodge attack's are absolutely great in that they can even beat delayed attacks AND throws!!

Problem:

Akira + staggers a crouching jacky

Jacky struggles and ETEG's

Akira CD's back and dashes forward during jacky's ETEG. Akira's dash forward comes at the end of jacky's ETEG, Akira inputs + throw and shoulder tosses jacky to the ground violently.

Solution:

Akira + staggers a crouching jacky

Jacky struggles and ETE's

Akira crouch dashes back and dashes forward.

Jacky sees that akira is delaying a possible throw attempt and adds a dodge attack to the end of his dodge.

Akira is stuffed with a MC dodge attack during his delayed throw attempt.

 

(RE: your first post on this page)


hi, i'd just like to say i make it a habit to break these situations with a backdash -> short shoulder.

if jeffry does a backdash, b+p , or
- +, he could have jacky on Eteg OR Ate with lp- something to consider, i dont really like playing delays without distancing from low P, dunno, but against -10, then it's usually gonna be throwing as 1st choice i'd pressume, which ATE doesnt seem strong against..

i guess ATE has it's moments tho, ~

thanks for posting this information

 

AMTE is basically only going to work in very specific situations. In general, it's not successfully interchangeable with E-MTEG or DTEG options after all just TC attacks are guarded, unless you are very good at those standard TE options. Different characters also may create different situations where it can be useful to think of ATE.

Some moves with barely TC recovery naturally lend themselves to ATE flow options. Particularly in situations where you feel you may have surprised your opponent and they are hesitating to react. Against a good opponent however, that won't be the case very often (practically never). 2 things in particular really drive ATE flow charts at higher levels:

1. Moves such as Kage's 2k+g, when used after a backdash for spacing, can be blocked and still recover outside of throw range. This causes your opponent (regardless of experience level) to make a decision whether to throw (risking a whiff if you recovered outside of range), attack (risking a dodge if you E-MTEG or a block if you DTEG), attack with a sweep or crescent (for obvious reasons), or move in closer before throwing, hoping you're doing E-MTEG or DTEG. If they choose either of the latter 2 options (slow crescent or move in closer to throw), following up with another 2k+g + MTEG will beat their slower options and still escape multiple throws in case they were close enough to throw immediately. However, not all characters have a situation that works exactly like this one for Kage. Which leads to the 2nd and more universal idea behind ATE flow charts.

2. Players who are able to always (at least 90%) escape their opponent's best throws in obvious throw situations using E-MTEG (of 3+ throws) and DTEG create ATE flow chart possibilities as a result of their opponent's frustration. Wanting to do more damage when a throw is guaranteed, and knowing someone will always escape their most damaging throws can cause a player to be greedy. The primary application of ATE flow charting comes into play during a tough match, when someone feels they need to react in an unconventional way to standard TC situations (like by not throwing during the guaranteed window!), hoping to eek out more damage from a strong TE'ing defensive opponent. Matches like that may also be when you see the most consecutive P+G throws landed. /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

In Summary, The top 3 ways to use ATE.

1. When you're so good at TE'ing after just TC attacks (E-MTEG / DTEG) that your opponent has to account for it.

2. Following a tricky TC move that may not recover in throw range

3. You feel your opponent isn't going to react in time.

 

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Moves such as Kage's 2k+g, when used after a backdash for spacing, can be blocked and still recover outside of throw range.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is similar (not as strong) to Jacky's situation after 46+ where Jacky can do this safely from a distance and not be thrown. Wolf is the exception with GS, and counterattacks are still guaranteed.I felt it's at least worth mentioning because your opponent may not be sure whether he can throw you or not and hesitate - creating a safe situation for the Jacky player. (most high lvl players will automatically use a guaranteed counter)

 

oh i seeee~ i'll try to give an example,

wolf's is -10. but at a distance, throwing will whiff him.

if i do this at distance, sometimes throw gets me, sometimes not (due to human factor).

if i start using ATE - it means -- when i am not throwable, my attack will hit them (or if they dash throw), and when i am throwable, i can escape one throw still.

this is right, .... right?

 

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:

oh i seeee~ i'll try to give an example,

wolf's is -10. but at a distance, throwing will whiff him.

if i do this at distance, sometimes throw gets me, sometimes not (due to human factor).

if i start using ATE - it means -- when i am not throwable, my attack will hit them (or if they dash throw), and when i am throwable, i can escape one throw still.

this is right, .... right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the game allows up to 3 throw escapes in ATE, but obviously the more realistic approach is 2.

So, for example: Wolf (blocked), then followed quickly by + + is good.

If is blocked outside of throw range, then + !!!!

 

I think the game only allows one throw escape when you are doing ATE. This is because of the fact you are buffering an attack, so the game would stop taking TE inputs. The throw escape input is actually triggered the moment the opponent throws, outside of the buffer window. I could be wrong though, maybe this can be tested?

 

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Srider said:

I think the game only allows one throw escape when you are doing ATE. This is because of the fact you are buffering an attack, so the game would stop taking TE inputs. The throw escape input is actually triggered the moment the opponent throws, outside of the buffer window. I could be wrong though, maybe this can be tested?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done some testing and captured some footage. At most I can enter low p and two throw escapes.(Like DRE said 3 is possible but two is practical within a match). It's quite annoying since you can't set the CPU to specifically do 3 throw directions.. (OR neutral + 2 Directions)

Its just down to hand speed and precision I guess..

 

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imf said:

AMTE is basically only going to work in very specific situations. In general, it's not successfully interchangeable with E-MTEG or DTEG options after all just TC attacks are guarded, unless you are very good at those standard TE options. Different characters also may create different situations where it can be useful to think of ATE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I am wrong.

AMTE = Attack Multiple Throw Escape
E - MTEG = Evade or Multiple Throw Escape Guard

 

I actually like to see this video because I'm still doubting if it's possible to do multiple TE's during ATE.

The reason I say this is because if you enter an attack during the recovery, the game shouldn't let you buffer any TE commands. A good way to test for this is record yourself in training doing AMTE. Then take control of the guy facing against the CPU doing your recorded motion. Guard the initial attack, let the recorded AMTE happen, and see if the attack actually comes out.

I tested this and I find that if you enter TE's, the attack doesn't come out. You must enter the attack very late in the window (just like how you do TE's), and it just doesn't seem possible that you can enter attack and 2 TE's when normally you can only enter up to 2 TE's if you are in a -8 situation. I couldn't be wrong, so I'll just wait and see the clip.

 

You can AMTE.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Darrius_Cole said:

[ QUOTE ]
imf said:

AMTE is basically only going to work in very specific situations. In general, it's not successfully interchangeable with E-MTEG or DTEG options after all just TC attacks are guarded, unless you are very good at those standard TE options. Different characters also may create different situations where it can be useful to think of ATE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I am wrong.

AMTE = Attack Multiple Throw Escape
E - MTEG = Evade or Multiple Throw Escape Guard

[/ QUOTE ]

EMTEG means evade multiple throw escape guard.


Regarding AMTE, yeah it's totally possible and practical, but when you use it predictably, you will get launched in the air, and it won't be on a normal hit.


Like IMF said, which I think is a great summary on ATE, ATE has its own place, but not nearly as safe as TEG and never be abused.

Even if some move puts you out of throw range, back dash is safer than attack or ATE, by doing ATE or A, you are basically attacking out of a huge disadvantage.

 

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you are basically attacking out of a huge disadvantage.

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yeah, that's why with the wolf example, although he's not throwable sometimes, the idea is to keep the attack as fast as possible to break the delay factor of opponents betting on EMTEG,

although an SS is great for when the opponent thinks you're throwable~ (however, if you play quest mode with wolf, the CPU actually makes an attack instead of throw when you are out of throw range~!!!*scary eh?*)

 

Re: Option Select and US!

[ QUOTE ]
BK__ said:

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you are basically attacking out of a huge disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's why with the wolf example, although he's not throwable sometimes, the idea is to keep the attack as fast as possible to break the delay factor of opponents betting on EMTEG,



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The thing about this is that ETEG in TC situation is a very poor option. If you can do TEG, you should almost always choose TEG over ETEG as your defense. That will eliminate your opponent's option of going for a delayed attack when they block an TC move.

Again, you shouldn't be worried about a delayed attack when you TC+ move gets blocked because TEG eliminates that option.


As a somewhat useful tip, if all you can do is ETEG at the moment, and your opponent keeps taking advantage of it by hitting you out of ETEG in TC situation, you should just attack with your launcher once in a while. That laucher will hit with a nice flash, which in turn discourage your opponent from using a delayed attack for free.

Then as a next step, when your TC move gets blocked again, you can use ETEG more safely for your defensive technique against throws as your opponent will have the thought of your RN in that situation in mind.

 

Backdash evade/boxstep is a strong option when you are out of throw range.

 

yeah, i always just boxstep~ /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

but the point of my post wasnt the options of "when you are TC, and when not" ~ it's the random factor of being TC or not.. because the window is tight, sometimes in VF you could be sworn out of range and still take a blow~!,

the reason i gave the example for ATE was to test the reactions of wolf for "when he was TC, he would throw escape" and "when he was out of range, he would Lp" instead.

normally at -10, opponents could delay attack, but could also delay throw too which isnt often, but happens.

these are situations where (as imf stated) - the defender is already great at MTE and the attacker gets fustraited at being beaten by his options. therefore messes with instant logistical input (i,e TEG, ETEG) -- the defender is now at a situation after throw inputs and gets thrown. -- *this is very common against lower skilled opponents or scrubs who dont play by the rules or also have bad reaction.*

i stated DTEG at -10 on the second page of this thread, but it seems that ATE deals with imperfection or obscure delay to beat technicallity.

i said in another thread that high level VF is based around "using textbook to beat non textbook --- and non-textbook to beat textbook" that seems to be the case with ATE by using an attack to cover holes of imperfection or delay (like using low P at reverse nitaku over bigger attacks)-- where as DTEG is logistically standard measures for the situation~

 

A Delayed throw is good against someone who can do TEG consistently.


A delayed attack when you block an EC move loses to both ATE and TEG. ATE will hit you out of your attempt, and TEG will let your opponent block your attack. That's why if you play against someone who can do TEG consistently, you better scratch a delayed attack on your option list in a TC situation.

You can totally discard ETEG when your TC move gets guarded. You should if you can do TEG.


If you see your opponent using a delayed throw by running in and trying to throw you etc, you can do ETEG followed by your initial TEG. That requires skills in reconginzing delayed situation, which doesn't happen in playing against CPU in quest mode unfortunately. You need a special way of training for this or an opponent who understands these and mixes up correctly on you to develop that strength.


As far as beating the untextbook players, it's about conditioning them. When you see one keep attacking you after you block a TC move of his, throw him next time. Keep throwing him until he feel like he has to break throws. Don't even need to mix up your throws here, as your intention is to have him do TE in that situation.

When he first break your repeated throw, you should try a delayed attack next time with a biggest launcher you have. If that works, that will put him in a chaos. He wouldn't know what to do next time the same situation comes around.


Always opt for your most damaging option, if you try to discourage your opponent's option. For example, when you know ATE is coming, launch him instead of low punch him. He won't even remember him getting hit by a low P out of ATE, but he will surely remember getting hit by a knee out of ATE.

 

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You can totally discard ETEG when your TC move gets guarded. You should if you can do TEG.

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You can still use E-MTEG after a TC attack for escaping more than 2 throws. If you can both DTEG and E-MTEG getting 3 consistently, you'll force your opponent to delay something or use their least damaging throw more often. If you give up E-MTEG and only use DTEG then your opponent can use their 3rd throw option without much worry.