Options after knockdown

What do you guys use to apply pressure after a successful knockdown as your opponent is getting up?

I know of a lot of really solid, consistent frame traps from a lot of characters (Jeffery's heel drop, Lion's high/low circular kick mix-up, etc.), but I don't really have a consistent gameplan yet with Aoi in those situations.

I guess as far as the options I do go for:

Throw - pretty effective, the most basic wakeup is into standing guard. Works best if you can dash up into it right as the opponent gets up. If you're already standing right next to them, people are too tempted to use rising kicks for this to work.

- use it when the opponent can tech-roll out, but the first hit will lift them back off the ground if they miss. If they sideroll into a rising kick or standing/crouching punch, then the third hit will crumble. Pretty high risk, but pretty high reward, too. I haven't figured out if there's a timing to attempt this against people rising more slowly... anyone use that?

+ - good against people who tend to go for either standing guard or standing punch on get up. I don't really think this is a good choice... it just works sometimes.

+ - bait a rising kick, backdash out, and then you can hit with this for free while they recover. Doing Tenchi stance, , + works too... but I find the timing and spacing more difficult (other options out of Tenchi seem to not have quite enough range to work here).

++, , - this attack is so slow anyone who immediately evades on wake-up, you'll cleanly hit their failed evade for a launch. Another risky option, but also quite effective against the right opponent.

Other things that I'm aware of are low-throw against siderolls, can anyone explain how to do that effectively? Very few people seem to purposely wake-up into crouch guard, so it seems to require tight timing, I'm not sure how to do that.

And + seems like it would have some potential too, as a slow crumpling move to crush rising kicks, but I'm not really sure how to figure out the timing of that either.

Especially against people who do delayed wake-up in-place, I really have no idea what to do except backdash away and sort of let the match start over from neutral timing.

Anyone have some suggestions, or a different list of moves they find useful against opponents with particular tendencies on wakeup?

 

Very risky against late risers, it's slow frames in between can leave you open to a rising kick. Not a very good option.

Not the greatest due to risk but remember to tack on ++ for safety and also more wake up options if + knocked down.

An okay option but if you're dealing with whiffed rising kicks or + are much better.

A nicer option than most, you can scare the crap out of an opponent enough to throw after instead of for a perfect 50/50 mixup.

If your opponent just holds guard it'll connect, dojo works wonders to practice this. It's like throwing an opponent after wake up just a little earlier than usual.

Works best against incoming sabakis after techs. Other than that, you can sort of see this painfully slow move coming.

Not much you can do here except try to anticipate the wake up attack and wait for it to whiff ( works better than backdash). You can also try jumping over them during the wake up although I'm not sure if this works.

or + is one of Aoi's best okizeme options in FS. Especially against walls! Oooo boy, you can be granted a free wall combo depending on the situation. The wide amount of options from backturned are great for okizeme.

You have the anti-evade low +, low starting , and the lightning fast true low coming in at 11 FRAMES. You have the new +, and this move is amazing. Opponent's back close to a wall? Land this throw and follow up with + ~Sundome~ and from there begin the wall combo of your choice. If there is no wall nearby + is guaranteed. All these options are nulled by a ducking guard but that is what + and it's other variations are for. It starts mid and the final is a special high, clipping any retaliation after the second high . You can also mix to + to catch them off guard or sundome for some mind games.

True 50/50 with some extra nasty little tricks to play with.

 

It's kind of match-dependant. Like, I think it's completely impossible to jump over Wolf (He's too damn big!!!), but against Goh or Lion you'll get it everytime. If they do a quick rising kick, they'll whiff away from you, and you end up in a BT position. I guess the followup is BT + or BT +. But they'll sometimes see the jump, delay the rising attack, and just hit you when you land.

Seems to be more a choice you want to make based on whether the positioning is good relative to walls, etc.

Thanks for the other suggestions, + definitely falls in that category of moves that I know is strong, and I'll use to open a match, but I haven't really integrated it into my playstyle the rest of the time.

 

Great thread!

1.
There is one really nice use for +.

After + connects on MC and the opponent tech rolls you can do + to stop the rising opponent from evading! This even worked in evo: if you time an attack correctly on rising the game just refuses to let the opponent evade, this is extremely important for oki.

The timing is strikter in FS than in EVO and VF5 it seems. You have to buffer a dash after the sweep connect and cancel the dash during its first few frames. You have to practice it often to be able to do it consistently.

I am experimenting with this move a bit more, it can be used in other situations but I have to figure the timing out.

2.
After sweep you can also buffer +, this will hit "meaty" causing advantage of +12 or +13 (instead of the normal +9) if they evade. This means that PPK is unavoidable and forms a true combo, about 70 damage. Clearly a nice and safe option against evaders on rising!

 

Lots of cool things posted in this thread already. Good stuff, folks. I'll just chip in with some simple stuff that hasn't been mentioned.

* jump descending over rising low sweep > low throw

* jump ascending over rising low sweep > dash > ground throw

* buffer crouch dash under foot of opponent's rising mid kick to + hit throw

Kruza

 

If they don't wakeup kick, you can do 6P, 5P+K+G~6~P, 2K, etc to mix stuff up.
However... if they do, you'll have a lot of fun.
66K can go over low kick iirc.
44P+K is godlike for punishing a whiffed mid kick.

I had a few setups to catch side-rolling with crouchgrab but I don't remember them atm. I'll have to find them again.

 

After on side hit, for aditionnal 30 damage if they don't tech. If they tech, dash or jump, can only be blocked. They can't evade or mash, if they try, they will get hit. then you can start jump then throw.
I don't know if it's due to VF5FS system, but now after certains combos, if they tech, they can't evade right away or mash or : They are forced to guard.
Like after , if they tech, they can only guard a well timed . If they input a evade after the tech, they will get crouch staggered by it. If they try to attack right away with a fast or , free combo for you.
After a combo like
if you do immediately and they tech, they can only block it.

It's a good improvement for Aoi, because in vanilla, it was easy to low punch or evade after she KN you with combos. Now, they have to choose the button more if they decide to tech.

Now for the low throw, it works if they QR ot TR and hold or nothing, after a crumple combo filler like .( you need to dash before the low throw)
If they try to attack right away, they will eat ( but it can still be evaded ).

I was always wondering before why japanese Aoi in videos like to do ( such a slow move ) on wake up. Now it makes senses if the foe is forced to guard if they QR or TR.

Also, after or on CH, you can OM and low throw if they tech and do nothing or guard right away.

 

It is the new system, and I wonder if anyone can explain this non-evade situation.

 

I already mentioned this situation in my post above. =)
Anyway, I have a number of setups for it in a google document, but I can post it here if you want.

The explanation is simple: an attack can only be evaded if the evade occurs during the startup frames of the attack. In the situation above, the attack is active (in active frames) during the very moment that the opponent recovers. Since the startup is over, the attack cannot be evaded, only guarded.


This was a technique featured in the tutorials of VF4:Evolution, I highly recommend it, even though a lot of it is obsolete.

 

This is the video my friend tested before. According to what he said, it's the situation on the tech roll position, which is relevant with your head or feet toward to screen(or background). I honestly still have no idea about this.

 

Madone is right, but there's actually even more going on. When an opponent techrolls in FS, there's actually a short delay where an evade simply isn't allowed. I don't know what the delay is... maybe in the range of 3-5 frames? I've never heard someone give an exact number. But it's definitely there, if your timing is correct, the opponent just has no choice but to guard (they can attack immediately though)

That's why low throws are dangerous on wakeup. A sideroll forces the opponent into a crouch position, so even if try to sideroll into standing guard, they have that normal 5(?) frames of low throw vulnerability because they're technically rising from crouch. So the low throw is basically free if you know the timing, and have conditioned them with + or something.

 

Heh, damn this info. I've played a few Jean players who know about this stuff and cleverly use Jean's unblockable charged jump kick attack to take full advantage of this situation. Players are getting good at timing this move just right so to make it extremely difficult to duck the jump kick after doing a quick tech roll on wake-up.

Kruza

 

Man I a started a long and rambling post and then deleted it. xD

It is late here in Sweden so I will go to bed and test this in the morning.

I just want to mention that perhaps you cannot evade during the "while standing" or "crouching" phase of the techroll? I also believe that it is not possible to do a throw escape during certain conditions. Will report back tomorrow after testing. =)

 

Yes, but if I remember correctly, it can only be done if the opponent QR when he is faced down head toward ( after typical crumple combo ). Now the unability to evade after tech roll doesn't require that condition.

I did more testing with:
After 6P+KP KD: jump P can only be guarded if they tech.
After 66P+KP KD: a well timed 66P+K can only be guarded too: no evade because it will stagger, and attacking will result in CH.
Futhermore, 66P+K on guard in that situation will become -5, so CD fuzzy guardable!

I just love that record option in dojo ! :-D

 

I think I understand now!

Training mode: set Aoi to do + > dash in > +.

Let it hit you, QR or TR and try to evade. It does not work in either case, you get hit if the + is timed correctly.

HOWEVER! Notice this.
If you TR and guard, your advantage is +5 but if you QR and guard the advantage is +6.
This move is -6 for Aoi when guarded. That proves that to stop evade during TR you must time it so that the move is in active frames then the opponent recovers.
But this seem not to be necessary if they QR.

Furthermore, in situations where you could evade after a TR, it is impossible after a QR! (Prove by recording with slower timing of +)

My hypothesis is that during the "while standing" phase, you cannot evade. This phase only occurs during QR and thus the only way to evades after QR (and not TR) is to time the move to have its active frames as the opponent recover.

Also the option select from EVO still works: do evade and then G. If Aoi miss the timing of her attack you will evade, if she times it correct and it is impossible to evade you will guard!

This needs further testing. Is it the same when they fall face down, feet towards?

 

I'm still new to this game, so I have a bit of a noob question about wake up kicks.

I've taken a liking to staying close after knockdowns to bait wake up kicks because the generic wake up kicks have a fairly obvious start up animation so I can score a + or + on reaction which seems to either give me a launch or free damage depending on stance.

My question is, are there any special animations for wake up kicks that would ruin this for certain match ups? I prefer this method over spacing and whiff punishing with a launcher because it gives me more options to keep my pressure going.

 

Certain characters do in fact have different animations that might throw you off. Taka, Jeffry, Lion, and Shun are the first that come to mind. If you ever are at a loss against these characters you could always bait with Tenchi In'You (++), avoid the rising with or (Player 2 Side) or +.

 

That was the method I used to use to get around them, but I always mess up with the spacing. The wake up kicks in this game have such crazy range, it's a bit awkward to get used to. I will keep it in mind though. Thanks for the reply.

 

One of the biggest reason that wake-up kick range often feels long is that if you knock someone down, and then backdash once, you're often still in range.

However, it was once pointed out to me that if you jump backwards, you actually move a bit farther, so you're more likely to end up with proper spacing to avoid the kick. And then you can get your free 66k or something. I haven't actually had time to try this out too much myself, and personally I just double back-dash to bait. But it's worth trying.

In regards to reversal on rising attacks, I think the worst is a few characters with slow attacks (Taka/Jeffery's headbutts), which might just hit you after the reversal window ends if you use normal timing. And then a few like Akira's double-limb low kick, which gets you one of the spinny evade reversals, and not much of a followup. But I think all of those require the fairly unusual head-towards knockdown.

I actually use the strategy myself, though I've never found it really possible to choose low/mid on reaction. However, if you dash right up to the opponent and stand there, they're already much more likely to attempt a rising kick, and if you stand there guarding, they're more likely to attempt a low kick, and if you crouch guard, they'll more often attempt a mid kick. Just using that as a trick, I can usually bait a specific type and get the reversal easily enough. And then after you do it once or twice, suddenly they stop kicking you (and then I just throw on wakeup).

 

Yes, Sorias! That is where I want to be. I want the opponent to be afraid to ever hit buttons on wake up. I know what you mean, tying to get the reversal on reaction. I tend to stand there, not blocking. I will try your method to bait the opponent's wake up attack and respond accordingly.
So much pain dished out by such a tiny little girl..