Options after knockdown

Discussion in 'Aoi' started by Sorias, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. Lord_Hollow

    Lord_Hollow Well-Known Member

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    Jumping back definitely carries you back further and faster than double BD. You can then immediately input 66K to punish whatever whiffed attack.
     
  2. Kruza

    Kruza Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Wolf has the double-limb low kick on wake-up too.

    Also, Kage and Lion have their own unique rising mid-level kick attack on wake-up whenever their head is laying toward the opponent.


    This is a good strategy that I sometimes use myself. But be careful doing this though, as you can also get easily launched as soon as you put in a throw command against a savvy player.

    Kruza
     
  3. Sorias

    Sorias Well-Known Member

    I don't know if this has ever been stated in another thread, but I didn't see it here. There's some great options out of Tenchi against a knocked down opponent. Really easy timing to pull this stuff off, too. Been doing it for a while, but I didn't see it written down...

    Basically, knockdown your opponent, immediately enter Tenchi while they're lying on the ground (can't be *too* close...). If they just lay there, or go for a rising kick, press back for Ryuka, keeps you safe, and Ryuka K or K+G can easily punish a whiffed rising kick.

    However, if they tech-roll, instead you want to enter Ryu'in. It will automatically track into a point-blank meaty Ryu'in P or K. The P is a safe mid launcher that is awesome. The K is the rare low that's actually positive frames on hit, and on counter-hit knocks down (and maybe even gives a guaranteed ground throw attempt... I'm not 100% sure yet). And it's really easy to add in other options, too... like just do empty Ryu'in into throw, once they respect the mixup.

    Of course, there's also opponents that prefer to juts quick-recover in place. Against them... maybe don't enter Tenchi after knocking them down.
     
  4. Kruza

    Kruza Well-Known Member Gold Supporter

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    Yeah, some moves from Tenchi stance are great to use against the opponent while they're laying on the ground, and you already covered many of the options.

    I don't think a ground throw is guaranteed after a counter hit Tenchi [6][K] though, since it's possible to get up quick enough to avoid the throw attempt by tech-roll or by quick stand-up. Anyway, I usually go for [2][K][P][P] or [3][K][+][G] if I see the opponent slow to get up after knocking them down with Tenchi [6][K]. Otherwise I stand and wait for them to get up.

    As for opponents that I anticipate to quick-recover in place after a knock down, sometimes I will throw out a [6][6][P][+][K] immediately to fish for a cheap counter hit launch and combo. But be careful doing this too often in this situation as this attack can be easily evaded. Tenchi [4][P] guard break is good to use against an opponent who tends to block high after doing a quick stand-up recovery in place. Sometimes after a knock down I creep up closer to the opponent with a forward dash or crouch dash to hopefully prompt a nervous quick attack that whiffs so I can punish afterward. And other times I just stand and wait.

    Kruza
     
  5. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    In which situations or after what KD or combos does it hit mealty ?
    Enter Tenchi, then 6, then P or K is so slow, I don't think it prevents any evade after tech roll.
     
  6. Sorias

    Sorias Well-Known Member

    Uh... I couldn't list them. It definitely only works after certain knockdowns, but I don't write anything down, I just figure it out intuitively.

    It was something I first started doing, because I find it difficult to time things like 46P+K to prevent a techrolling opponent from evading. It's sort of the whole point that Tenchi>6>P/K are very slow moves. You don't really have to care about the timing, just hit 6 the instant they start the techroll, and it works out to be about correct.

    Try like... PPP2K, canceled into Tenchi, immediately canclled into Ryu'in, and have your opponent get hit by the 2k, and immediately techroll. It should basically work.
     
  7. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    I tested all the combos and KND situations I know ( from whom 46P+K or 66P+K or 3K are mealty) , and Ryu'in P or K can always be evaded... Even after immediate tenchi after sweep CH.
    Please, Be sure to check your stratz before posting.
     
  8. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    To test if a move after a tech roll is mealty on dojo mode:
    cpu settings -> Reaction : Defensive move 1 or 2
    Details -> Fall recovery: side roll/back or side roll front

    Now, in order to hit the dummy with the launcher (since he will do a defensive move to dodge it), just 2K+G cancel or 44P+K cancel and throw your launcher of choice, it will force a failed evade and the dummy will be launched. After the combo, he will tech roll and will immediately evade if you attack after he techs. If he can't, it means the move is mealty.

    Basically, if you combo ends with PP6PP, or 2KPP or 66P+KP, your 46P+K or 66P+K (with various timing or not, with dash or not)can't be evaded and will hit if the foe doesn't hold G after techroll.

    Combos example:

    44P+K, 6K+G, 6K, 2KPP followed by immediate 46P+K: can't be evaded if tech.
    33P+K, P, PP6PP followed by 66P+K or 46P+K: can't be evaded if tech.
    66K, 2P, PP6PP followed by dash 66P+K: can't be evaded if tech.
    33P+K, P, P+K, 66P+KP followed by 66P+K: can't be evaded if tech.

    Timing can change, depending on the character enemy.
     
    Manjimaru likes this.
  9. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    It's meaty not "mealty" :p
     
  10. Madone

    Madone Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to add that Aois best meaty option probably is K+G. The reason is that I just found out that a tech roll that is not exact actually comes out later than an exact one. This means that even if you time it perfectly, the opponent can choose to make a non-exact tech roll and evade your 46P+K.

    There is furthermore no sound cue to indicate whether or not the TR is exact. In EVO, the perfect tech rolls where completely silent, in FS there is still a sound.

    The best way to test this btw is to play with Aoi as player 2, record the sequence and then do an exact tech roll and try to evade.
     
  11. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    No, because it's high.
     
  12. Madone

    Madone Well-Known Member

    Which does not matter since is it an active guess against evade, that is the whole point of meaty attacks. High risk, sure, but good japanese players still use it sometimes.
     
  13. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    Just set CPU reaction to CH to test meaty attacks, no yellow flash = meaty
     
  14. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    Hello, K+G is already a full circular attack.
    The point of meaty attack is to make more interesting non linear moves to become unevadable.
    Good japanese players use 46P+K and 66P+K more. At least against thoses two, you don't lose half your life because the K+G get ducked.
     
  15. Chibitox

    Chibitox Well-Known Member Bronze Supporter

    The thing is how can high option be better than a mid meaty that gives a combo on any hit ? why bother with a high ?
     
  16. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    And high full circular.. doesn't need to hit meaty since it's anti-evade already...
     
  17. Madone

    Madone Well-Known Member

    As I said before: it is possible to alternate the timing of when you recover after a TR. Exact TR and non exact TR does not get up at the same frame.

    An attack in VF usually has 1-2, sometimes 3 active frames. This means that by varying the timing of your rising (exact, non exact) you can actually rise after or before a meaty attack.

    Try it yourself in training mode. I have yet to find an attack that I can land meaty so that it is impossible to escape it by either doing an exact TR or a non exact TR.
    An attack a lot of Goh players use as meaty is 3KP. Try recording this
    46P, P, 46P+K P 6 P, dash in, 3KP. If you time it correctly it is impossible to evade. Then try doing a perfect exact TR and try to evade.

    So, my point is, the reason why you pretty much never see japanese players use Aois 46P+K as a meaty is because it can be escaped in this way. Thus I think a full circular that combos when it hits as meaty, is better since it will work even if the timing is not perfect.
     
  18. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    LOL that's the exact contrary, I wonder what matches we were watching, because I pretty much never seen japanese Aoi players using K+G as a meaty... not to mention they never get that +12 followed by PPK...
    And the reason I was interested by 46P+K in the first place, is because I saw lot of Aoi doing that on wake up and I always wondered why, at that time I didn't know the existence of meaty.

    Doing a full circular attack on techrolling opponent is not exactly meaty, because by definition, the full circular attack is already anti-evade.
     
  19. Madone

    Madone Well-Known Member

    My argument against doing 46P+K should be clear by now. It is not realiable, and yes, I know that some great players (Megane for example) does use it.
    Either he knows something I do not, or japanese players tend to do exact recovery more often.
    Watch the video in the other thread by the way. =)
     
  20. kingo

    kingo My bitch G0d3L is a scrub Content Manager Aoi

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    I only disagree with K+G the better option. Since you like being 100% safe, if 46P+K's timing is screwed, and you get evaded, you are still safe. While K+G is high and can be ducked or 2P on wake up, and worse, free launch on Aoi.
    Other thing, 46P+K and 66P+K can also be done in more KND scenario as meaty options.

    Now when I heard you, it's like it's not worthy to attempt meaty on KND because of the techroll timing, and use full circular instead while calling it meaty, which is "nonsense" to me, since full circular are already anti-evade. It's like saying "using throws on meaty"...
     

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