options after PK hit

This is something that veteran VF players take for granted, but I've recently traded messages with a couple of different opponents on XBL and they hadn't thought this thru fully. Cozby, made a comment about this recently, "I could pk and play the +4 mindgames," and it made me decide to flesh this out as completely as possible. This statement applies to over half the characters with "standard" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combos. (AK AO BR EI EL JA JE KA SA WO) High punch is the fastest attack for all characters and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is guaranteed to hit after blocking many attacks. For the 10 characters I listed, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hit results in a +4 advantage.

Getting hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is thus also a common occurence, and there are limited options available to your opponent to defend themselves. In general, your opponent will:

1. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
2. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
3. fuzzy/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
4. DM
5. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
6. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
7. elbow
8. low kick/sweep
9. slow mid/high attack

(If there is a defensive option after getting hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif that I have forgotten, please reply. Maybe OM? nah.)

Now here's some basic /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif flow charts and what defensive options they are successful against "beats" and what defensive option they "lose" to.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> elbow
- beats 2,5,6,7,8,9
- loses 1,3,4

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> sweep
- beats 1,3?,4,5,8,9
- loses 2,6,7?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> throw
- beats 1,4
- loses 2,3,6,8
- clash 5?,7,9

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
- beats 5,6,7,8,9
- loses 1,2,3,4

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
- beats 5,7,8?,9
- loses 1,2,3,4,6

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> quick mid-lvl hopping attack
- beats 2,6,7?,8,9?
- loses 1,3,4?,5?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> launcher (slow mid-lvl attack)
- beats 2,6?,7,8,9
- loses 1,3,4?,5

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> high crescent kick
- beats 4,5?,7?,9
- loses 1,2,3,6,8


Analysis:

Basically, it comes down to yomi, observing your opponent's tendencies.
-Are they very defensive waiting for you to over commit?
-Are they very aggressive, abare?
-Do they like to evade when at disadvantage?

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> elbow loses to standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, fuzzy/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and DM.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> elbow is a much more preferable option over /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> sweep loses to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, and maybe elbow (depending on the characters involved.)

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> throw only beats standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and DM.

The final 3 options are higher risk but also more reward. Pay attention to how your opponent reacts. If they always low punch when at disadvantage or panic low sweep, you could interrupt them for a nice float combo.

Using a high crescent kick after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is not advisable. Really, it only beats DM. You could try it if your opponent spams DMPK when in trouble.

Defensively, fuzzy/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is the most powerful technique. It diffuses all these flow charts except maybe /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> sweep.

 

Damn, this is why I write these things up, I totally forgot about OM.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> OM attack
- beats 2,4?,5,6,7,8?,9?
- loses 1,3

This is something I've never actually done. Didn't think of it until now. Hmmm....

 

PK > sweet doesn't lose to Fuzzy guard. Most sweeps are slow enough that they'll be standing b4 the sweep comes out. Least the ones I use.

 

PK> OM P is pretty god like yupa said, beats 2p and other stuff.

PK> Low Sweep is one of those online specials, offline you can do fuzzy guard then react in time to block the sweep but it's practically impossible online.

 

Oh yeah you can def react to it fast enough if you're looking for it.

Nature of the sweep

 

No, it's not.

Especially when PK > sweep, is not used just to combat fuzzy.

Good try though.

 

No it's not at what? I don't get you man.

All I said is it's usually easy to deal with pk> sweep, you just fuzzy guard after the pk hit and block low again if you see a low coming. But online this kind if stuff doesn't work at all, it's kinda similar to the 2p> dblplm combo, just a part of online play /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

No, about it being an online special.

Mostly though you want to use a fast low which is probably linear, but you use the sweep to cover more bases.

Play VF4evo's tutorial vs Akira's fuzzy challenge where you duck the throw, guard the double palm, and guard the 3P+K, do that shit 10x in a row, but afterwards, do it with a knife being pointed at your throat while being hung upside down by a rope with a burning candle(pressure). /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Yeah that's the kind of stuff i'm talking about, I can do it offline really well but online I can never react in time even on full bars. I seriously think it is an online special, you go to crouch again to block the low but you can never do it in time. It's not like that at all offline.

 

Talking about things being an online only thing, is a bit redundant. People get hit with moves that can be easily spotted or defended against all the damn time at all levels.

You don't block all of Lion's sweeps. You don't. Do you?

I know that you probably got hit with cold water when you realized that some of the things you may or may not do online, didn't work anymore offline, but some people were already aware of and knew these things. Know when and WHY, PK - sweep can work. Knowing when and why that works has nothing to do with online play.

Something like PK - sweep works because it's still a choice, it's not some online special. PK - sweep, beats ETEG, it beat's fuzzy - ETEG, it also beats some choices of "abare" for a throw attempt, it also beats reversals/sabaki's vs elbow attempts.

You're not going to always want to fuzzy after eating PK, period.

It's going to hit you.

 

I would add PK > (delay) throw to beat out fuzzy also.

From the list you made up there it looks like only delay throw and sweep will beat out fuzzy guard.

I'm fairly certain more things beat fuzzy like a low linear attack as those tend to be slow enough to hit them while they're standing.

Any ideas ?

 

sabaki, nonclash-attack.

Although punch, lowpunch and fuzzy guard are the most propable options you will face.

 

Slide I think you might have read into what I said a little to much, I have no idea what or why you said most of that but i'll try my best to respond.

No, do I have to?

Hmmm, I was playing VF before online VF existed.

Agreed but don't see the point in you stating this.

eh? Offline pk> sweep wouldn't beat fuzzy guard but online it does! That was my entire point and if that isn't the definition of an online special then i'm confused.

Agreed but your not going to want to do it at all online cause low sweep will pwn you!

 

k whatever.

 

PK sweep loses to low punch.

 

I have PK -> sweep loses to low punch, and after saying it beat fuzzy-G I put a question mark because it depends on the defender's reactions as has been discussed. They can still react in time and hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif to block a slow sweep. (offline at least) I can't do that, but I've fought more than one opponent who can.

sabaki and non-clash attacks are defensive options I forgot. Thanks. I'll see if I can edit the original...

I actually see DM a lot after I hit people with PK on XBL. I'm kind of curious what will happen if I PK -> OM and they use DM... same/different directions... boggle.

 

If you PK and it hits, you can use just OM and then do a throw or attack. In this case OM would avoid instant singleattacks like lowpunch/punch and work as a delay against opponent DM/fuzzy guard. Sound good. Weakness: OM can still lose to almost any attack if opponent delays it (for example opponent does fuzzy guard->elbow). If opponent does a sweep, OM can both win and lose depending on timing that can be more than a bit random.

 

OM vs. sweep randomness generally pisses me off... (when my sweeps whiff) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

OM beating throws isn't as frustrating to me for some reason.
Although it should not happen from my understanding of the game system.

I'll update the original post... I just don't have time right now.
Monday morning rush hour has begun... TGIF for me =)

 

Different directions I guess OM attack would win. Same directions I guess that it would depend on the DM attack - default/faster DM attacks would win but slower DM attacks like Lau/Jeffry/Aoi's might lose?

Btw, since this flowchart applies to 10 out of 17 characters we might want to consider putting it in the wiki.

 

Thing is, OM shouldn't beat throws. It just sometimes happens, about as often as it beats fullcirculars. I dont know if there really is some microsecond of invulnerability in OM or what. OM definitely loses to throws more than it wins them.

also: I take back slightly what I said. OM generally loses only to delayed punch/elbow-speed attacks out of all delayed attacks (not to mention circulars), because OM P is fast enough to make interrupting with slower moves really hard. The timing window gets too small in practise.

edit: also something that has been forgotten from offensive charts:

PK -> backdash (whiffbait) -> big launcher