Parries - Thoughts after SoCal Q1 2007

(No diss to Rayne's thread, I just wanted to start a new and fresh discussion on parries)

Well, the question still remains: "Why parry when you can just dodge?" or "Why parry at all?"

Aside from saying that it's very fun to parry and punish opponents, I don't know if I could give a very solid answer. But I still love to parry and I think there are very good places to use it.

The basics: P+K+G will parry any NON-KNOCKDOWN high/mid elbow or single hand technique. d+P+K+G will parry any NON-KNOCKDOWN low Punch or low Kick (it's not gonna parry Lion's b,df+P). Once you parry, you can live with a neutral situation (unless the rest of the string is coming) or you can use a special dodge by tapping down or up.

Right now, it seems like the most common followups to parry-->dodge is the side or back throw. Hopefully someone will write the book on side/back combos if they are an option.

The potential advantage to a successful parry are:
-fast side throw
-potential guaranteed back throw
-put the advantage back on Lion with a parry-dodge-poke
-big side crumple combos (if only I knew how to do these)
-big back crumple combos (if only I knew how to do these)

A few places I think using a parry is quite good:
-against semi-circular attacks that annoy you (ex. Shun's b+P though you can dodge to front).
-when you know a canned sequence is coming and you can parry early or late in the sequence (if Akira does single palm, you want to parry that since you cannot parry the followup elbow)
-against people who use strings that give you enough time to parry (Lion's parry is not an instant 3rd strike parry).

A situation where a parry is pretty darn cool over the standard options is Akira's single palm. If you parry the single palm, you don't have to worry about the followup elbow, you do have the dodge, and it's less guesswork for you on how to deal with Akira. If Akira does the followup elbow and you parried and dodged the singlepalm, the second elbow will put you behind Akira's back (but he'll be at almost mid range, so you might want to dash to him). The potential for damage in this situation is probably very very great (if only I was good at setting up side and back crumple combos). However, just remember that you cannot parry the followup elbow (it counts as a knockdown on normal hit and I think you don't have time anyways).

While this situation doesn't counter the DM argument, I do think that the parry dodge here is much better than a normal dodge. I am under the impression that the potential damage here is far greater.

I've also used the parry on Shun's b+P (from the various positions he can do that) and have had back throws as a reward.

When playing Ice-9 on Saturday night, I was able to do a lot of parries against his Kage and his Lau. It's pretty obvious where you can parry against Lau and it definitely setup a lot of fun side staggers and throws. It also kept him a bit more honest about Punch, elbow, and low punch use. However, because of the "does not knockdown on normal hit" requirement, could not parry Kage's df+P.

The movelist seems to imply that the parries are instant, but I think they have execution frames (but a good range of active "hit" frames). I failed at parrying in the middle of a non-delayed PPP string. Also could not parry the whole string (hey, wanted to turn VF into 3s for a bit for kicks and giggles). Though I did have fun parrying delayed strings. Either there are definite execution frames or there are definite recovery frames if Lion doesn't dodge. Or maybe just a constraint.

It's sort of amusing that you can parry Akira's guard break.

I guess something you could say about parries is that so long as you do successfully parry, the dodge is guaranteed. Doesn't matter if the attack was half or full circular, you're getting a dodge. Furthermore, parrying sub-categorizes your opponent's attack the way sabaki attacks do.

I plan to keep on using the parries, they're just too much fun. But I do wish they were much more powerful (that would make Lion super cheap though).

-Chanchai

 

Hey Chanchai no offence taken to a new thread! You make some good points, its a shame none of us can test these things out on dojo mode. No record mode really hurts vf5. Anyway, as far as side crumples go, the one I use is: sidekick, then B,F, K+G, Backturned K, then B,F P+K, P. (Hope that makes sense) Does decent damage and looks flashy. So tell me does the parry just counter high punches and elbows, and mid elbows? No kicks? I still see the use of the low punch parry, when I play my mate who plays as Kage (he's a bit lame tho..) He often does UF,K+G followed by either low punch, or if he thinks I will evade that he does a throw. By doing the low punch parry I will either parry the low punch or duck under his throw by doing the parry. Either way its good. One final thing, what constitutes a succesfull side crumple? I dont think an elbow will do it, does it have to be an attack with a minimum damage, like the sidekick? Jeez I need to get a life lol.

 

Thanks for the tip on your side crumple combo, I'll try to use that when I can (I don't play VF at home...).

Yeah, I think the standing parry only handles elbows and fists/hands. No kicks.

Thank goodness the low parry handles low kicks. There's a lot of good use in that, though not a lot of people at SoCal 2007 used low attacks much. Yosuke commented on that too. It's not really an awful thing, it's just that a lot of people are focused on mid/throw that low attacks get neglected. If anything, the people who did have trouble with my Lion had trouble because I would low attack a lot instead of going for throw so much (but I need to go for throws much more than I do). Hopefully my low attacking taught some lessons (though of course it'll open up more low parry opportunities).

Using low parry to avoid highs and throws. I do it too, but I feel that strong opponents have a lot of time to hit you right away or take advantage. That said, it did work to my advantage a lot, but I think the recovery probably sucks for a missed parry. It reminded me of using DoA2-4's low reversals though--it's a valid tactic. But a lot of people do mid attacks and I'm sure can even get launched out of it if the opponent is quick to react to it.

BTW, another thing you can do to punish your friend's low punch is b,f+K. I am starting to love that attack. But parry is probably much safer on miss.

On side crumple... I'm not sure myself, but I think you have to MC a clean side attack (clearly at opponent's side). Getting that nice blue flash is great. I woudn't be surprised if there was a damage requirement. Hopefully someone Japanese literate will chime in on that, but I'll shoot the question out there.

The elbow will just do a stagger. The tough thing is that parry --> dodge guarantees nothing.

Opponent can still escape side throws and block attacks that you do. But they have to really be aware of it. That's partly why it's more likely to yield great results when done early in a string.

Some of the opponents in SoCal 2007 became sharp about the parrying and started blocking or plugging in side-throw escape-guard when a parry happened. I'm actually wondering if Ice-9 was doing this to me in the tournament, but I didn't get many parries off in our match. I think at best, I got a parry-dodge --> elbow P on him and that was it.

Fortunately you can do ANYTHING after a parry-dodge. It's a nice way to neutralize the situation though and put opponent firmly on defense. They really can't attack you outside of the string it seems--therefore it's clearly in your advantage by my logic. They have to defend (or be crazy sharp) it seems.

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Wait a minute, this might be a dump question but are you telling me that everyone in the game can parry moves with P+K+G? Is this true? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

 

No, it's just Lion. Lion has two parries:

P+K+G - Parries High and Mid single hand punches and elbows that don't knockdown on normal hit.

d+P+K+G - Parries low punches and low kicks that do not knockdown on normal hit.

After a parry, Lion can tap up or down to get a canned dodge (somewhat similar to the dodge he gets when he does f, db+P+G).

 

You forgot about Wolf's R.A.W. stance. The command is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif

It is not a true parry mind you, Wolf receives 10 pts of damage for intercepting a move. It has the same properties as Lion's high parry except Wolf can do followup attacks or catch throw after a successful sabaki.

 

Does anyone know any of Lion's back stagger combos, the ones I used in evo dont work. Electric Leo and I had some games the other day and both found tourou-soufou stance out of moves to be fairly useless. As soon as you see it coming you can jab them out of it. Anyone any new stuff to share?

 

Backstagger, FC f+P, into PKP seems to work on a lot of characters (even wolf) it drives them quite far so there's a chance of hiting the wall for even more damage.

 

Something whacked that I ran into...

I parried one of Jacky's attacks that leads to a hit throw. While the hit was parried, the throw happened anyways...

I was amused and yet not amused at the same time...

 

Further testing on the weekend found it to be almost completely useless in every occasion I tried it.

 

Said it before but... if only PP guaranteed PPb+P... Then TRSF out of that move would actually be decent. But when opponents see a punch string coming out, more likely than not they block and they can block the b+P no matter what (outside of being hit into a wall).

Well... I guess at least you can use it when you trap the opponent into a wall.

Can the opponent low punch you out of a guaranteed hit:

b+PP, P+K+G --> KK (right away)?

K on TRSF is a special high and you can cut off a decent chunk of the animation. I'm sure you tested it out, but just asking specifically.

Back to parries... How many Lion players out there completely see the move that Lion parried? It should be everyone, but I have to admit that I only have a clear idea of what it was on the spot only half of the time. A lot of times I kind of attack too soon and I realize what attack it was when my attack has already gone off.

At least I know I need to sharpen my observations a bit.

At the moment, I feel that with a lot of attacks, dodging is just fine. But with some attacks, parrying is quite a bit better.

 

Hey Chanchai, yeah they can hit you straight out of TRSF every time, they dont have to be particularly quick about it either. I'm like you, I dont see what it was that Ive parried but as long as I see the blue flash and see him evading after I just go for a throw or whatever, it doesnt matter what move you parried as long as youve registered it after youve punished them as you cant have the reflexes to decide= hmm I parried his high elbow so that means I can do x move. Its all too quick imo. Why couldnt he have a decent low punch counter? Theyve given Akira all kinds of counters on top of all the high damage stuff he has.

 

Too bad about b+PP, but I asked a dumb question there. It's -1 on hit lol. I am certain though that if by some freak accident you land PPb+P, you're a happy camper with TRSF. I think I might try to play with b,b+P+K and hit-checking it. If opponent is still close enough, b,b+K is compelling. If they're too far (often are when that move hits), then TRSF. Don't think I have the reflexes for that, but it would be fun to practice.

On parries... Yeah, it all happens so fast...

But some situations I'm getting better at spotting. Sometimes it's anticipation, sometimes its actually seeing it. I think it's something we'll get better at the more we successfully use the parry actually. But it's so tough now when the benefits to parrying aren't all that apparent.

I guess the fact is, we're doing parrying when there are other options. But parrying is way too much fun and it's a good way to annoy someone.

Often times, we know when an Akira player might go for the single palm. In those cases, I know I might have to buffer a dash if they are the type that do the followup elbow without fail. If the followup comes, we'll be behind Akira. If the followup doesn't (we assume based on whether we've seen them followup before or not), then it's safe to go for a poke or go for side throw.

With Lau, if he does his DM+P+K, we usually saw it coming so we can prepare what our response is and it's a decent amount of side dodge that we get.

While I haven't really seen much reason for Lei Fei to use his dart punch (d+P+K+G --> P+K), I run into lots of opponents that use it. I'm trying to build a habit of parrying it if they don't charge it close to full and then dodge it if they do max charge. It's a fun little exercise.

Against Lau again, his elbow palm is fun to parry and depending on what was parried, it's fun to punish.

Also, the low parry isn't usually a big situation, so we know when we're doing low parry anyways... So I usually go for f+PP or knee flowchart. If they start blocking that, sidethrow. If they option select side-throw-escape-guard, sweep /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif (or royally piss them off with TRSF Throw).

Something I wish for in the parry though... I wish you didn't feel obligated to do the built in dodge. I wish Lion would at least get a +2 advantage on parry or something, but it feels like parrying alone yields either neutral or disadvantage (I'm leaning on disadvantage to be honest, but it depends on what was parried).

I guess, if you parry a move that has a long recovery, then you don't have to dodge and you can get guaranteed damage probably. But if you parry a general poke, which we usually parry, you better dodge. If you parry a move with a followup, you better dodge.

But again, it's so much to think about in the split second you have. And as far as I know, that dodge input has to be the exact moment the parry happens (don't you hate it when you input it too early or too late?).

Would be awesome if you could OM from the built in parry-dodge Lion's back crumple ftw (that, or maybe in some cases you 360 yourself back in front of your opponent and get hit by whatever they were doing).

-Chanchai

 

Oh WAIT! I'm talking about the move that comes after knee, the shuffle. In fact, I thought Rayne was talking about that earlier too. Whoops.

TRSF against Rayne didn't work because I was using b+P,P to interrupt him a lot, which is a bad AI habit. And he was pushing me to the limit so I fell back on habit more often than I should. AI is a sucker for TRSF from that situation, but it's not when I would use TRSF against a human opponent usually. I tend to use the catch throw on wake up, or the f+p from a distance.

Further attempts with the shuffle after knee thing showed THAT to be totally useless. Sorry for the confusion.

 

The shuffle-stance-change thing is referred to as 'kenpo' in the command list training, I think?

All I can really add on TRSF is that I tend to use it at the start of a round sometimes. But wait. TSRF = /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif? The backdash->canned moves I use a lot. The sorta fowards side-step one (like one of Pai's weirder counter things) I tend to only use for the special throw. (A catch throw? My VF theory sucks.)

 

Kanpo is the shuffle step stance off of moves like the knee, b+K, TRSF-->K, and PK. I really wish Kanpo had at least two other moves with it. You almost have to hit-check it, but I don't even know if you technically can. I use Kanpo off of b+K on occasion.

TRSF (Tou Rou Sou Fou) is forward moving.

TRMF (Tou Rou Mai Fuku) is backwards moving. And TRMF is the one that does have a lot of good uses. Heck, we'll start a thread on that, but TRMF has a lot of great attacks that can be put to use.

We'll create threads on TRMF and Kanpo. Though Kanpo is tough to get into. It's just so limited with just those two moves and a long recovery time before you can throw out of it.

 

I'd love a breakdown of TRMF. I basically don't really know what I'm doing on a concious level and am trying to learn so that I can break down my game. I've reached the limits of my natural skill with Lion so would really appreciate anything you can tell me /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Lol, we're all learning this game together. It's an open discussion on our favorite game /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I'm not posting this stuff to be the authority, whatsoever. Just to state what I think about the game /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I would appreciate what you can tell me too! We all share and discuss.

And I'm not all that great of a player lol. I do my best

But I'll post my most recent personal thoughts on TRMF eventually. And like all things, our impressions can change over time. But TRMF is a lot of fun to play with, imo.

 

Dont get me started on TRMF, I could go on about that move, its just so damn decent when your opponent's near a wall. Basically Leo, we found that Kenpo (the cool shuffle) is frickin useless and the TRSF (the forward moving stance thingimajig) is pretty crap unless you use it as they are getting up. Talking of useless Lion moves-Chanchai I wouldnt bother with B,B, P+K and instead use DF, P+K. The new P,P,B+P is good too and on counter hit you can go into TRSF,P+K then crouch dash into throw for a phat combo. I seriously need to play against some human opposition, Im getting bored of vf5.





Leo.....

 

Kay's meeting up with Leo on the weekend? Thats bang out of order, I want in!!!!!!