Picking a character guide

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by ice-9, Nov 29, 2001.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    For fun and to perhaps spark a discussion, this is a guide for picking a character that I drew up. What do you guys think? I've played some characters more than others, so maybe some of you guys will disagree with some of the decisions, or maybe have other criteria to add that will provide a more fuller picture.

    Note: More Xs are not necessarily better.


    The table HTML thing is not working out, so to check out the table, go here:
    VF4 Character Selection Chart

    I haven't figured out the VFDC template system yet, so right now, the guide looks pretty nasty. Myke...help?
     
  2. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hmm, I don't know why there is a big space there...can't seem to get rid of it though.
     
  3. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Interesting guide. I give you props for trying, but I really don't think I agree with all of the markings. I guess we just have to wait and see since it's early now... So if you plan on constantly upgrading this project, well... good luck.

    A lot of what I have to say is likely to be about Lion since that's the character I spent a good amount of time with.... Just thought I'd lay a bit of input despite your "subjective" warning. Though of course, these are definitely subjective as well/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Lion
    I believe his ringout potential is greatly reduced in VF4. I mean, it's still there as far as I know, but it just seems like some characters have WAY MORE RO potential in VF4. I can picture Jacky being a Ring Out whore (among other things) in VF4.... the range to which I've seen a Jacky combo carry a character across the ring scares me.

    Technical Control
    I can see this being debated to death on a variety of characters. I would guess that Vanessa requires quite a bit of technical control. In addition, I feel Lei Fei would also need good technical control to be played with purpose and direction. I guess we'll see about that in the future.
    I really feel Kage should be put on Technical Control now.... Might just be early impressions or that you have to pretty much relearn him in VF4, but I don't see any scrub or beginner or even decent players handling him at all without putting the effort to really learn him in VF4.

    Easy to Play
    To label Lion as Easy to Play or not Easy to Play.... debate goes in my mind since anyone who knows what they are doing and are using almost any character aside from Lion (or maybe even Lei Fei) can probably beat down a newbie Lion... Might not look like it, but Lion gets beat out of everything almost. Anyways, that would probably be Chanchai the Lion player speaking, but it's how I feel.
    For certain though, I think you can technically say Shun is easier to play with Lion. The most annoying scrubs I've seen are Shun players who magically mash with d and df while pressing K--producing a random wall of low kicks and sidekicks that can annoy anyone.
    I guess the real question is: "What are the standards to 'easy to play?" To play on an average level, intermediate level, or expert level?

    Combo Strength
    I hope I'm not the only one thinking that Jacky should be put in combo strength because I'm under the impression he's a "dial-a-combo for mondo damage" character. His damn beat knuckle, knee, and anything around a wall scares the crap out of me at times.
    So does Combo Strength require both "Combo Damage" as well as "Combo Variety?"

    throwing strength
    Is Vanessa weak at throwing? I wouldn't know at this point, but I'm curious.

    Overall Speed
    I personally think Lion is slow... Again, that could be the Lion Player in me speaking, but here's how I'll break it down:
    -Execution of decent attacks are easily interruptable (unless the attack is designed to just break you out of pressure and almost nothing more)
    -Movement speed feels moderate to me (ESPECIALLY after bum rushing opponents with Jacky)... Don't know if that deserves and X, but I wouldn't say his speed is a specialty. I feel his speed is about the same as Shun's, just animated awkwardly.

    Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts. At the very least, it sparked some discussion and thoughts on my end/versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    -Chanchai
     
  4. jackybrothas

    jackybrothas Well-Known Member

    i would like to add that Vanessa's throws are really strong. Lei Fei has a lot of damaging float AND ground juggles... always keep in mind not to tech roll against an experienced Lei fei.
     
  5. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Hey, nothings here!!!
     
  6. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    Whups..just took a long while to load up...weird!
     
  7. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    Veerrrrryyyy interesting. I'm noticing that there aren't too many Xs in Lau's column. Anyways, on to the comments.

    Combo Strength
    I don't see why you'd list Wolf and not mention Jeffrey or Jacky. Jeffrey's got those brutal knee combos, and then there's Jacky's sick wall combos.

    R. O. Ability
    I think you could add Lau to that list. Lau's m-UpKn(MC), P, b+P-> P, P, P, d+K can cover a good distance. And I don't understand why Lion's in this category. Not that I'm saying he shouldn't be there, but I don't know of any moves or throw setups that would make Lion a serious ring out threat.

    Throwing strength
    I gotta go with Jackybrothas on this one. Vanessa should be in this category based on your explanation, "Variety and damage of throws, including low, back, catch and hit throws." She has a number of hit throws(df+K+G-> f+P+G; f+P, df+K-> f+P+G), and low throws (d+P+K+G and df+P+K+G). And don't forget the Defensive Stance holds.

    Overall, a good effort. I'm not trying to sound like a VF guru (faaaarrr from it), but I like what I see so far. It doesn't look like Lau has been drastically changed from VF3 to 4. No sabaki attacks, inashis, or throws which add or take away from his effectiveness, unless I'm missing something.
     
  8. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey Chanchai,

    Interesting guide. I give you props for trying, but I really don't think I agree with all of the markings. I guess we just have to wait and see since it's early now... So if you plan on constantly upgrading this project, well... good luck.

    Thanks! I actually don't agree with the "Well this game is new so we can't say anything about it" mindset; if we keep thinking that, we'll never get around to discovering things and will always be trailing Japanese players for information. But, this guide is far from groundbreaking type of stuff, and it's really just something fun to spark some discussion. And I'll probably keep it updated as we learn more things.

    A lot of what I have to say is likely to be about Lion since that's the character I spent a good amount of time with.... Just thought I'd lay a bit of input despite your "subjective" warning. Though of course, these are definitely subjective as well

    No, that's great, because Lion is one of those characters that I didn't get a chance to play much.

    I believe his ringout potential is greatly reduced in VF4. I mean, it's still there as far as I know, but it just seems like some characters have WAY MORE RO potential in VF4. I can picture Jacky being a Ring Out whore (among other things) in VF4.... the range to which I've seen a Jacky combo carry a character across the ring scares me.

    First, I'm going to disagree that Jacky has R.O. strength. Every character I'm sure has some sort of a float combo than can push far. Every character has R.O. potential, but some characters rely on it more (Kage) or have more opportunities to R.O. than others (Wolf). Lion in VF3 was no Kage, but he had many, many opportunities to push the opponent around. In VF4, I assume it must be much easier to get away from stuff like the elbow-poke? I'll take your word for it that Lion is not much of a R.O. character any more!

    Still, I think it bears pointing out that on the whole most character's R.O. potential has been reduced, and that makes sense, given the smaller arenas.

    Technical Control
    I can see this being debated to death on a variety of characters. I would guess that Vanessa requires quite a bit of technical control. In addition, I feel Lei Fei would also need good technical control to be played with purpose and direction. I guess we'll see about that in the future.


    By technical control, I mean stuff like DLC, SPOD, Wolf's b+K+G, P+G, TKOD, hard to execute stuff like that. I'm not 100% sure about Vanessa, since that's the other character I didn't play much of, but I don't think she or Lei Fei have important moves like that. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though. But I definitely want to keep "easy to play" separate from "technical control."

    Easy to Play
    To label Lion as Easy to Play or not Easy to Play.... debate goes in my mind since anyone who knows what they are doing and are using almost any character aside from Lion (or maybe even Lei Fei) can probably beat down a newbie Lion... Might not look like it, but Lion gets beat out of everything almost. Anyways, that would probably be Chanchai the Lion player speaking, but it's how I feel.
    For certain though, I think you can technically say Shun is easier to play with Lion. The most annoying scrubs I've seen are Shun players who magically mash with d and df while pressing K--producing a random wall of low kicks and sidekicks that can annoy anyone.
    I guess the real question is: "What are the standards to 'easy to play?" To play on an average level, intermediate level, or expert level?


    Like I mentioned in the criteria, easy to play is based on how effective the beginner can be with the character. I've seen one or two scrub Lions and Shuns in NYC, and the Lion one was definitely more effective. Shun is a more difficult character to move around, it seems, and his best moves can't usually be gotten through mashing. Someone chime up if they have similar/disimilar observations...

    BTW, I think a beginner Lei Fei beats down on all other beginners!

    Combo Strength
    I hope I'm not the only one thinking that Jacky should be put in combo strength because I'm under the impression he's a "dial-a-combo for mondo damage" character. His damn beat knuckle, knee, and anything around a wall scares the crap out of me at times.
    So does Combo Strength require both "Combo Damage" as well as "Combo Variety?"


    Hmmm, yeah, I've been thinking about that...I think what it comes down to is for Jacky to be dangerous on a combo level is to get MCs on his BK and knee. But, it's not like he even relies on combos to win or resorts to them very often. I guess this is one of those things where if it's a rating of 1-3 Jacky would be a 2. Hmmm.....

    throwing strength
    Is Vanessa weak at throwing? I wouldn't know at this point, but I'm curious.


    See GhostDog's post...

    Overall Speed
    I personally think Lion is slow... Again, that could be the Lion Player in me speaking, but here's how I'll break it down:
    -Execution of decent attacks are easily interruptable (unless the attack is designed to just break you out of pressure and almost nothing more)
    -Movement speed feels moderate to me (ESPECIALLY after bum rushing opponents with Jacky)... Don't know if that deserves and X, but I wouldn't say his speed is a specialty. I feel his speed is about the same as Shun's, just animated awkwardly.


    No way, Shun seems slower than Lion...Lion on the whole has faster executing and recovering attacks, and he dashes and moves faster. Again, this seems like one of those 2 from 1-3 things...

    Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts. At the very least, it sparked some discussion and thoughts on my end

    Yup, that's the whole purpose...
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Combo Strength
    I don't see why you'd list Wolf and not mention Jeffrey or Jacky. Jeffrey's got those brutal knee combos, and then there's Jacky's sick wall combos.


    Originally I picked Wolf or Jeffry because it seems as though Wolf has an easier time to inflict big damage. For example, against MW, on mC Wolf can get knee -> P -> b+P -> b,f+K+G whereas Jeffry would have to rely on knee -> P -> f,f+P,P. No denying that on ideal conditions (MC, LW) they both have equal floating ability. But, I give the further edge to Wolf because of the many number of ways Wolf can land his b+P combos in his many stagger situations.

    But, following your and Chanchai's advice, I'm going to upgrade Jacky on combo strength.

    R. O. Ability
    I think you could add Lau to that list. Lau's m-UpKn(MC), P, b+P-> P, P, P, d+K can cover a good distance. And I don't understand why Lion's in this category. Not that I'm saying he shouldn't be there, but I don't know of any moves or throw setups that would make Lion a serious ring out threat.


    For R.O. ability, I'm going to keep the category pure and take Lion off of it and keep Lau off as well. Like I mentioned before, every character has the R.O. ability in a float, but these may be few and far between and may not be critical to how the character is played. Hmm, I guess I should rename the criteria as R.O. strength.

    Throwing strength
    I gotta go with Jackybrothas on this one. Vanessa should be in this category based on your explanation, "Variety and damage of throws, including low, back, catch and hit throws." She has a number of hit throws(df+K+G-> f+P+G; f+P, df+K-> f+P+G), and low throws (d+P+K+G and df+P+K+G). And don't forget the Defensive Stance holds.


    Totally agree, don't know what I was thinking.

    Overall, a good effort. I'm not trying to sound like a VF guru (faaaarrr from it), but I like what I see so far. It doesn't look like Lau has been drastically changed from VF3 to 4. No sabaki attacks, inashis, or throws which add or take away from his effectiveness, unless I'm missing something.

    Cool, thanks. It's a new game, so everyone's on even footing. I agree with your assessment of Lau, although he's been given many anti- punch and low punch attacks in 4.

    Updated chart:

    <a target="_blank" href=http://virtuafighter.com/vf4/documents/vf4_chara_chart.php>VF4 Character Selection Chart</a>

    Changes at time of writing:

    Took Akira and Lion off continuous offense
    Gave Jacky combo strength
    Took Lion off R.O. strength
    Gave Lau big damage potential
    Gave Vanessa throwing strength

    I think there's some others but I can't seem to remember....
     
  10. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Lei Fei has a lot of damaging float AND ground juggles... always keep in mind not to tech roll against an experienced Lei fei.

    Really? I base most of my conclusions about Lei Fei in the tbzone clips of Akira Kid...there were a few ground combos, but that seemed to be about it.
     
  11. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    Add a tick to Sarah for Defensive depth. She has a high and mid punch/kick Sabaki (Hydro Sidekick>P+K) and a low and mid punch Inashi from the Flamingo (FL:p+K).

    If you can give Jacky a tick for having a simple punch Inashi then Sarah is more than qualified.
     
  12. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    Jacky's can grab and redirect any punch or single limbed strike that uses the arm high or mid. It's damn frustating espiecially as a Shun player.
     
  13. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    I stand corrected. Still I would like Sarah's list to be amended.
     
  14. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    Re: Lei -
    I'd give lei X's in combo ability, ground game, and big damage potential.
    Lei's combos aren't more than 3 or 4 hits but do obscene damage. Unfortunately I don't know the move names, but combos I see over and over -
    Two canned mid punches (looks like pai's b+P done with one hand then the other).. second hit is guaranteed if the first interrupts, the opponent is floated, then lei does something that looks like a stun palm into a Jann Lee bodycheck. This is from the new kyasao flick, <a target="_blank" href=http://www.tees.ne.jp/~siva/haahaa.wmv>www.tees.ne.jp/~siva/haahaa.wmv</a> .. total damage looks like about 65 - 70 points.

    Sidekick, sidekick, hopkick (u+K+G? hops and kicks with both feet?) - definitely over 1/3rd of a lifebar, and it's braindead easy to do. Maybe 70-75 pts. Someone on IRC said that those kicks were f,f+K and not d/f+K .. I dunno, they look similar to his sidekick. But either way the motion for them is gonna be easy.

    Hop kick (same thing, u+K+G? It deserves a name) into leg flop animation. Low punch, another hopkick (slams to floor), d/f+K stomp - maybe 60 pts.

    A basic throw, not P+G but maybe b+P+G, the one where he delivers a backfist to the opponent's face Bruce/Jann lee style - gives one or two free ground hits after the leg flop animation. I dunno if that belongs in combo ability or a throws category. Come to think of it, I think this ought to have a strong throws category.
    A lot of people come from other games an center their character choice on "who has strong throws and good setups for them?"

    As for ground game, Lei's infamous for the 90% damage pseudo combo - one big combo, interrupt the opponent's tech roll into another combo... lei's pounce is nothing to be scared of though, it's apparently identical to Akira's. So maybe not.

    I think I like fewer categories but a 1 to 10 scale for each - everyone can do big damage or ring out, some just do it more easily than others and some are just better at it. I like the idea of a chart for newbies, but I'd like to see categories like:

    - Safe and effective float/combo starters - akira and wolf would be a 10 for the shrm. Pai is a bit lower for the crappy high kick and her lack of effective moves that cause leg flop animation or KD. (I know b+P is there.. but it's not effective).

    -Powerful, easy to do throws - Wolf, Jeff, and anyone else who has a strong throw with a guaranteed pounce/ground attack afterwards. Anyone who has [nearly] guaranteed followups to stumble throws, i.e. Lau's ST, b,f+P, dnknPPsweep.

    -Strong canned combos. Lei would go here for stuff like the two mid punches that float and his hopkick thingy. Jerky would go here for PK, P, K - good damage and no interrupt needed. Vanessa's d+K, P, P, pounce is also strong. Kage on the other hand has PPhelix, bleah.

    -Ring out potential.

    -Ease of control - Jacky is up here because the commands are all simple. You can practically play Jacky with a broken joystick. Akira tends to need accurate inputs and the AS 1/2/3 need more dexterity than say, a lau canned combo.

    I think that's it.
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Hey Adio, excellent point. I gave Jacky the tick not just for his punch inashi but also for his shuffle step, which is an awesome defensive move. I think what I'm going to do is to take Jacky's tick away and keep Sarah tickless. If almost everyone has ticks the criteria wouldn't be very meaningful!

    Do you guys think I should take one away from Lion as well? He has special escapes and that awesome sabaki...
     
  16. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    A basic throw, not P+G but maybe b+P+G, the one where he delivers a backfist to the opponent's face Bruce/Jann lee style - gives one or two free ground hits after the leg flop animation.

    That's Lei's df+P+G throw. Common combos off of that are df+P+G - P+KPP, or df+P+G - df,df+PP - d+K+G. Lei is a monster, lunging punch into that b+PP combo does *huge* damage.

    I like the few categories with a 1 to 10 scale idea.

    Being a Lion player I think he is a great combo character. He's one of the few that has a barrage of moves that cause a crumple, drop, or leg flop on a normal hit. I rely on that to setup lot's of combos. Don't forget his uppercut or vaccuum punch starters. Lion can combo with the best of them -- he's just very unorthodox.


    cheers,
    kbcat
     
  17. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    I think Shun should be a 10 in your safe and effective float/combo starters category. What is safer and more effective than the chouwan. Plus it out prioritizes 99% percent of the moves in the game.
     
  18. akiralove

    akiralove Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    JTGC
    Just a correction here, Jacky's auto P sabaki cannot catch elbows, high or mid.

    Jeff, I'm curious why you took Akira out of continuous offense. I have a feeling why, but I'm curious to hear your point.

    Spotlite
     
  19. Hayai_JiJi

    Hayai_JiJi Well-Known Member

    Oops! I forgot that about the elbows though I am fairly sure I have seen it grab Shun's elbow. Maybe it has some diiferent property. Or maybe I am a dumbass which seems more likely. That damn cpu Jacky always seems to be in neutral.
     
  20. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: Lei -
    I'd give lei X's in combo ability, ground game, and big damage potential.
    Lei's combos aren't more than 3 or 4 hits but do obscene damage. Unfortunately I don't know the move names, but combos I see over and over -
    Two canned mid punches (looks like pai's b+P done with one hand then the other).. second hit is guaranteed if the first interrupts, the opponent is floated, then lei does something that looks like a stun palm into a Jann Lee bodycheck. This is from the new kyasao flick, www.tees.ne.jp/~siva/haahaa.wmv .. total damage looks like about 65 - 70 points.


    Lei has decent combos, but so do everyone else. It seems though that Lei isn't dependent on combos but mixing up his flowcharts. That said, I think that is sufficient reason to give him an X for big damage potential.

    As for his ground game--what's his ground game?

    A basic throw, not P+G but maybe b+P+G, the one where he delivers a backfist to the opponent's face Bruce/Jann lee style - gives one or two free ground hits after the leg flop animation.

    d/f+P+G, that's his best throw by far...

    I think I like fewer categories but a 1 to 10 scale for each - everyone can do big damage or ring out, some just do it more easily than others and some are just better at it. I like the idea of a chart for newbies, but I'd like to see categories like

    For the above chart, I actually started off with a rating system of 1 to 5, but then I found that scale to be exceedingly precise. I mean, it's difficult to judge whether one character gets a 3 or a 4, and it's more difficult when you're trying to apply it uniformly to all the characters. I then tried a 1 to 3 ranking, but even *that* seemed too precise. So for the present exercise I decided to go with a bipolar, yes or no type of a framework.

    RE: Your criteria

    If you remember a long time ago, for VF3tb I had very similar criteria, but I had a lot of problems rating characters primarily because the ratings are too few and some characters look really bad (like Pai, for instance, who doesn't seem to have much of anything). There seemed to be a lot of aspects about the characters that weren't captured in so few criteria. So I decided to adopt "As many different criteria as possible" type of a mindset and just "roughly" evaluate each character with an X or a -.
     

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