play level needed for goh

I was wondering if other goh users have noticed this.

After playing goh for about 2 1/2-3 months, i can't help but notice that vs a large portion of the cast i have to COMPLETELY outplay my opponent to win. It gets to the point of being absurd. So many of the fighters like aoi, vanessa, lion, etc, etc, that have fast combinations really don't ever have to play defense. I continually block 3 to 4 times the amount of attacks my opponents do, but since goh has such poor options for combos that hit track, i have to time every hit. Meanwhile, my well timed evades are ate up by the once termed "masturbate" style of canned combos that tracks for days. You include this in addition to long hit tracking combos that are intended to leave ur opponent at a decided disadvantage, but then lag comes in and smoothes crouch fuzzy and eteg moves into simple fuzzy gaurds, eliminates some of ur throw escapes, and generally boosts the power of abare after combos...and quickly goh becomes a player that i have to not just play better than a reasonable opponent, but i must consistently dramatically outplay my opponents to get disproportional results.

I fight many opponents and split games, or lose a little more, or eek out a slight advantage, where my skill level is unquestionably superior overall, and the techniques i'm employing during the fight are more skilled. However, they are able to mash there way to so many easy rounds, that goh rarely ever gets from a mash-happy abarefest.

In conclusion, i have realized that one of the true banes of vf5, and imo it's biggest weakness in balance is hit-tracking on combos. Why is that it should occur that i evade ur combo, but i am still on the disadvantageous side of the guessing game. Will my opponent continue to spam out the remainder of their combo, and thus track and beat any move i try and do. Or should i stand still after my successful evade and risk being thrown, by the opponent who i JUST guessed and reacted to's move? In essence, the occurrence of these hit tracking combos means u have to guess right twice (which is half as probable) to capitalize on an intended advantageous situation.

I suppose i could begin by spamming dm pk to stop these strings, but i am hard pressed to actually make myself do this.

And ultimately, i suppose if vf is gonna be a game so heavily reliant on the guessing game of hit tracking to undermine and/or determine the risk reward ratios of playing mash mash mash vs actually occasionally using the guard and movement functions of the game then i can live with that. At which point i have to say either everyone's combos need to hit track, or no ones combos should hit track.

As it is, hit tracking should be listed in the wiki along with other move special properties. And you could look at it wonder, why is it some of the cast's entire moveset tracks evades, and others have only 1 or 2 moves that do so.

My final verdict:

 

After you evade, don't input anything. Your opponents string won't track then. Wait for their moves to stop whiffing then punish them.

 

Goh is the second hardest character to play as next to Akira. He's not meant for beginning nor even intermediate players. If you really want to get to mid or high level as Goh you should probably get there with another character first and keep Goh as a secondary before taking him on as your main.

If people are using canned chained combos against you, then you need to use something like p+k to sabaki those punches and elbows, and not even let them finish the sequence. If you predict a sequence of high canned attacks then you might even try using Goh's df+k+g hit throw to try to pick them off when they initiate a canned sequence that involves successive high attacks. Df+p+k beats mid level punches and mid level elbows. Use that to break through your opponent's offense. You could even low punch them during the sequence.

What characters and what attack sequences are giving you the most trouble?

To be honest you can't really blame the system on your failure at achieving success with Goh. You say that you've been playing Goh for only three months. That's hardly enough time to get good with him as he's very hard to be successful with.

 

my 10 cents:

Against mash mash mash you block and take initiative/punish accordingly. Dont try to evade so much what may well be random inputs with random timing.

I know I don't like how VF5s tracking works but Myke is right in the facts department.

ps. online is online, If you try to learn off it, you will be put off by the random effects lag has on timings.

 

well thanks for ur input. But i suppose i shouldn't complain. The fact that u have to work harder with goh and be more observant is the reason why i picked him up. Then i got a lil sidetracked with the hit tracking stuff. But i still know it is a valid point.

Oh well, that's life. Let's lock this thread up before the posts get too outlandish.

 

It may be a valid point but Akira is just as worse off in fullcirculars as Goh.

 

I think that, with Goh as your main character, it's even more essential to first get down the basic mechanics of Virtua Fighter 5 (as has been said in this thread already). Trying to put Goh's combo moves on one level with Akira's or Eileen's, for example, and playing according to that, will certainly put you at a grave disadvantage. He is not the combo-heavy, strike-emphasized character. In fact, you can almost count his good combo moves on one hand alone.

In most cases, what it comes down to with Goh is pure nitaku really close to your opponent. I think it's not too bold to state that phone booth range is where he is causing most damage and threat and where he can apply his throw and sabaki guessing games best. As you also may have noticed that his most effective moves -- to which the Shoulder Ram surely counts -- are very limited in range forcing you to automatically opt for a relatively short distance to your opponent.

Nonetheless, you have all the tools at hand that Virtua Fighter provides (almost) every of its characters with, including delayed actions, evades, stepping, catch throws and even a high circular move.

Destilling Goh's fighting style to some particular play style will, of course, never do the full array of possible options and guessing games justice that he is capable of. As far as I know, pushing options to the back or even out of your mind has never brought anyone's playstyle any advantage. In fact, quite the contrary is the case. That is to say that somewhere is, of course, also a threatening "Long Range Goh" to be found, even though he may not be as threatening and effective as the "Phone Booth Goh". It's really up to you and your opponent.

 

From a different point of view:

Meaning of "judo" and Goh
[/size]
From Wikipedia article on Judo

Formalism and strict conduct are typical of traditional judo.
The word "judo" shares the same root ideogram as "jujutsu": which may mean "gentleness", "softness", "suppleness", and even "easy", depending on its context. Such attempts to translate "ju"[/size] are deceptive, however. The use of "ju"[/size] in each of these words is an explicit reference to the martial arts principle of the "soft method". The soft method is characterized by the indirect application of force[/size] to defeat an opponent. More specifically, it is the principle of using one's opponent's strength against him and adapting well to changing circumstances. [/size]For example, if the attacker was to push against his opponent he would find his opponent stepping to the side and allowing his momentum (often with the aid of a foot to trip him up) to throw him forwards (the inverse being true for pulling). Kano saw jujutsu as a disconnected bag of tricks, and sought to unify it according to a principle, which he found in the notion of "maximum efficiency". Jujutsu techniques that relied solely on superior strength were discarded or adapted in favour of those that involved redirecting the opponent's force,[/size] off-balancing the opponent, or making use of superior leverage .. "Wiki Excerpt"

I'm a Lei Fei player, But I love to watch Goh in action. I'm just wondering whether phone-booth range style of fighting is really the whole point.

From Leonard Mcoy's description and your comments it sounds like Goh is at least a fair approximation to the true spirit of
Judo.

Perphaps thinking more like a Judo stylist might add to your success with Goh

 

Lol too late

 

It takes time to master Goh and the Reward for this beautiful if done correctly lol!.

 

ROFLMMFAO

Well., from a post modernistic existential point of view the fact that this forum exists and all the effort and involvement that goes into it on behalf of a video game demonstrates that we have all made some questionable(some might say outlandish) choices in life

But seriously though It appears the folks at AM2 did their homework on Judo, and when they added Goh they added a style that was not already present in VF. And that style represents more of a 'defense as offense' approach to the game.

Although each player might bring his or her own style to the game, I think there is a unique fighting style philosophy for each character in the game. If you take advantage of the fighting style philosophy for each character, IMHO it can enhance you opportunities for success in a match.

Obviously one could ignore the fighting style philosophy behind
any given character, and play that character how they choose. But if the character was designed with 'defense as offense' in mind and you choose to use the character as high pressure offense you are probably going to have to work twice as hard to win (IMHO).

One might say from an outlandish point of view that Judo lets the opponent defeat himself. If the people at AM2 were really thinking Judo when they added Goh, it might be safe to assume that Goh is meant for advanced users that can win the game on defense(IMHO)

 

Please do.

 

You cats take no prisoners

 

From your post you approach playing goh the wrong way. Goh is a character mostly played bare bones which means you must know the system very well. "Outplay" your opponent means you are trying to emphasize setups or putting combinations together since that is what you are having difficulty in fighting Aoi, Vanessa, Lion. If your skill level is unquestionably better you can win with any character with a p, 2p, a fast elbow, a decent full circular and a good throw game. If you cannot win with the above, your higher skill level is slanted toward the things you are having difficulty fighting. Also a strong Aoi, Vanessa or Lion will not emphasize any combinations as they too will know the system and these combinations mainly arise from moves that are guarded or causing staggers. The majority of the time Aoi, Vanessa and Lion spend time poking with p, 2p, fast mids, and some low attacks/full circulars for catching dodges.

 

hey social, i share the same opinion. Even from the best goh players out their, like assasin.. We know how hard it is to win with goh. We're always in the live party complaining about why other characters have that and why goh doesnt.. etc.

I know what u mean, playing someone who doesnt know half the shit u know. Playing ppl without fuzzing guarding, not knowing their frames, etc.. It feels like we goh players have to work soo much harder. Its rare to find good gohs out there, theres only about 5 goh's out there i consider thats decent. one of the reasons i think goh doesnt win tourneys is because goh kinda sucks the first 1-5 games ( when u dont know how they play yet.). But once u figure them out, its a better fight. Tony told me about a strategy to figure someone out ( Sorry tony i will not expose ne secrets, just this one ). Watch how they react after each flowchart/situation. Are they a type of opponent to keep making the same mistake?? how long does it take for them to adjust. etc. If they keep doing the same mistake their a "1,1" player. If they adapt and change up their strategy afterwards they are a 1,2 player. Some players take 3 times to correct their mistakes and change their situations( 1,1,1).. some players only take seeing 1 flowchart once before changing their reaction to it. 1234 players are the hardest to fight, when they keep doing random things. I duno if that makes sense..

Ya goh is linear it sucks... But learning lei fei made me watch for failed evades more and to attack when i see failed evade. Oh and, when they are attacking with linear string moves, try DM and at last momment press PKG. So that way u have evaded with DM, and before the DM frames end u can OM. U can do OM AND DM together. A naked om, will not evade much. OM K to back or side stagger is crazy.

When i first started goh, i wanted to give him up. I would pick up another character and think, wow this character has so much more than goh. But they all have their weakness. Akira is linear, Jacky u can 2p him, lei fei's strength is his stances and also his weakness, etc. Kage, seems like he doesnt have a weakness tho, lol. But the more characters i played, i realized how good goh can be. Easily goh has one of the best punishers up close. Evry character has their flaws and strengths. Ex, lion is tricky and his offense is sick. But cant punish at all. Goh has no offense , no strings/ mixups like lion.. however he can punish very very well. So that would mean, goh has to have very good at yomi. Alot of gohs also are very predicatable. PK bt PK, or BT throw. Try different flowcharts and different throw directions like Down throws... or pk (hit) OM P, PK low sabaki basara, etc. Goh has a good kick. K and even better 3K. I used to play goh with like 2 flowcharts from each move.. Goh needs to be a lil creative since, hes easy to read. honestly gohs best offence IMO is 2p flowcharts and P flowcharts ( throw,mid). 2p alot of strings when they end up high, or throwing when u duck. goh oki's good too, i dont why ppl say goh doesnt have good oki, his oki is one of the best imo. dont be afraid to 2p or p throw, goh has to do that, their own fault if they dont fuzzy or eteg. The one thing i do hate about goh is losing to players that arent as good the first couple matches.. but after that, its GG. Theres no better feeling than losing 1 week to say a jacky player.. and coming back the next week and beating down the same player with the acquired knowledge.

Although, goh does require you to fuzzy guard not only when u hitcheck ur own moves, but u have to fuzzy and know when to eteg when u get hit as well. You can even low sabaki, when opponent is plus 10 and duck under throws and highs. I sometimes play ppl who i know i am a better player and have a hard time playing them.. but once u study their frame data, know which way to evade, etc... U can shut them down pretty well. Social, try using evry character, 1 character evry week. I personally go through a characters move list about 3 times in that time span, then go through their frame data about twice. Sometimes i even fight with the character and find out their weakness. dont gotta go into detail.. dont gotta remember their combos.. Look also on CH/NH/GUARD what they are at, its actually fun learning evry character, ull learn new stuff with evry character i promise u. Its sounds like alot of work but its not. Its hard to learn some characters because ur not interested in them, but once u go study them a lil bit, i bet ull appreciate the character more. This week im studying elblaze, I didnt wanna study him because el doesnt interest me at all.. but once i played with him a bit, hes actually a pretty cool character. And i just found out from a previous post, if ur willing to look at the total frame of a move and subtract -21 from it, ull have the adv frames after successful evade. Ull be surprised on how many moves u can basara after an evade. Once goh knows that character well, u can shut them down. its not so much how u play goh, its how well u know the other character with goh. Goh takes a shit load of work to get good with. And when u do beat someone with goh, ull know u out played him times 2. Goh is rewarding. OH by the way social, yo look at GAUCHE and akape on youtube. I study those gohs. Pause in ur youtube clips to see why they use that option as well.
( :
Another thing, VFDC tells u to fuzzy 1-5, cf -6 etc... BUt breaking away from the fundamentals and abaring is very useful to ( cough 2p, p ). or if they are plus 9, low sabaki to go under throws for example. fuzzy g and cf is a lil overated. Some ppl dont even buffer the throw, so if u fuzzy g, thats a delayed throw for example. Some ppl online get pissed off at abare in certain situations.. they'll say, u should FUZZY in that situation evrytime.. But, breaking away from the fundamentals will screw up ur opponent. mixing abare with moral is good. Another thing i noticed from high level japanese players is, the prefer evading in negative 1-5 sitiations more so than FUZZY OR CF. The advantage u get after a successful evade will be more than blocking a move most of the time.
PS- P+K sabaki is overrated. I always see in posts that the solution for goh is always P+K sabaki. " Whats the problem? Goh has the P+K sabaki ". IMO, that move isnt that great, its more for new goh players.. Ull never see top level gohs use that move much. MID SABAKI and low sabaki tho, is gangster.

 

Goh imo is one of the best characters when in a disadvantage state

 

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Excuse me, are we talking about the same character, the one with the magic shoulder ram and the massive 270° throws?
</span>
Allow me to elaborate a bit: his magic shoulder ram and massive knee are just -9. His throw damage is accompanied by a 11f punch, contrary to other characters with comparable throw damage. is just Having sabaki to fall back to is an extra luxury. Sure he doesn't have (m)any strings but i guess that's the tradeoff.

 

Awesome point man.

And thanks for taking the time to respond mackfactor. But i'm not sure there are even 5 notable goh's online really. I certainly don't consider myself there.

And regaurdless of my complaints, i picked goh up to offset all the bad habits i have learned with lei fei. To focus more on having to make guard my most effective button, and anticipate and punish within the frame work of the game. And for all the aggravations he has provided for me, when i do use lei on occasion i feel my defense being stouter.

It's nice to see someone who can actually take what i said within the context of what i said, and not just assume that i don't realize that a sabaki can stop a punch and a kick, and 2p will duck a high, and an elbow/mid wins after a 2p is blocked, etc etc.

anyhow, thanks to everyone who's replied all the same.