Please answer this question.

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Guest, Jan 4, 2001.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The reason a lot of VF player quit to play VF3 is because the game is to easy and no skill, please do not get it wrong, I mean it's a combo game, just like Street fighter.

    Reason is low kick major counter throw and Arkia's SUPPER SAVE Breake guard-down PG,

    as TB comes out people say Sega fix this problem , u can block the single kick, only Forward PG break guard is guarantee with single kick, that's fair.

    But after almost 3 and half years, in HK, there is guy call KAI, who is my friend, told me TB did'nt change that BUG. Down PG+ Single kick still is guarantee. I tried, I believed is true and he told me Japanese Gamest also mention that.

    I am so disappointment a great fighting game VF2, when it go to the third version will became shit like that.

    Any command.

    Honestly, the reason people like VF is they love Mind game more than only combo game, combo is fun, but why play VF....

    see u guys \

    Joshun
     
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    what was the question?

    what?

    huh?

    I believe I comprehended what you were saying... But I still see VF3 as a game of mind-games. But then you said it's a combo game (like Street Fighter). Are you saying Akira's Guard-Break into single kick makes it purely a combo game?

    Excuse my confusion.

    Anyways, I know many players love VF2 over VF3, but I'm still mixed up on this thread. My assumptions are that VF2 does take more skill combo wise than VF3. As far as mind games, I don't qualify myself a good enough VF2 player to comment.

    -Chanchai

    Additional Thought:
    -You are saying that Akira's d P G break-guard has a guaranteed single jump kick followup right?
    -If so, is this under any condition or just when a guard is broken?
    -Then, are you saying that because of a setup like that, it's gotten down into a Street Fighter "feel" because it is so easy to setup a SJK combo based on that d P G guard break?
    -Isn't there a mindgame that must be won for Akira to achieve that sequence? Just like in many other "guarantee" situations? Isn't there at least two preventions to this tactic?
    -Combo based fighting games also have fairly strong mind games imo, though not nearly as much (or as frequent per unit of time) as VF2 or 3.
    -Doesn't VF2 have anything similar? Aren't there insane combos in VF2 that could probably dominate an opponent after 1 or 2 mindgames? By RO or even KO (most likely RO).

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Chanchai on 1/4/01 08:46 PM.</FONT></P>
     
  3. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Hmmm...I thought all fighting games NEED combos to win. It's a matter of finding the chance to do it, meaning u have to outwit ur opponent in order to break their defense n WHAM BAM SLAM!

    One thing I've come to realised is, those opportunities are really hard to come by when U're playing a really good player.

    It's like Ryu. No matter how powerful a Shoryuken is, (some like to call it cheap) it's useless against a good player. Cause the opponent will refuse to take random chances of jumping. Thus the game can either
    a)become a game of patience
    b)Ryu takes the initiative n turns shoryuken into an offensive weapon.(which is what I always do!) /images/icons/smile.gif

    Playing VF3tb with my sparring partner is a hoot. I could always get combos after combos. Yet against good players I've faced, it's no longer the same. I spend half the time cracking their defense n try my best to Ura em. Unless they do a bad mistake, otherwise, combos are a rarity.

    I'm actually looking forward to going back to singapore in a few weeks time. Heard there is a real good Jeffery player back home waiting to play me. /images/icons/smile.gif


    Btw chancai, the question Mr Joshun asked is 'do u think ppl quit VF3 because it's no longer a mind game? rather, it has degraded itself into a combo maniac game? (I believe this was the question, thus my answer)

    Instead, I believed VF2 IS the combo game, not VF3tb.
    I agree with what Jeff said in his article. At high level of play, TTT is kinda the same game with VF2.

    VF3tb is a whole new ballgame.


    <font color=red>SummErs' 'Faster Than Lighting! '
     
  4. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    i'll take the bullshit in tb over the bullshit in VF2 anyday.

    i never understood why certain people, such as creed, bitched and moaned to no fucking end about even borderline stuff such as jeff's db+P+G->backthrow, yet just giggled when VF2 lau stagger ->upknPblahblahblah the opponent to death. i could make a massive list of all the frustrating, bullshit things in VF2 and tb, and the list would be so heavily piled up on the VF2 side it. there really is not a whole lot to complain about in (arcade) tb.
     
  5. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    adamYUKI
    XBL:
    adamYUKI
    VF-BS.

    Maybe fighting games aren't about mind games and combos.
    Maybe fighting games are about different levels of bullshit and cheapness.

    Only those that can harness the cheapness and BS will be strong players.

    "i could make a massive list of all the frustrating, bullshit things in VF2 and tb, and the list would be so heavily piled up on the VF2 side it"

    Please make the list! Please!

    -Emil

    <font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

    <font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>
     
  6. nascarbryant

    nascarbryant Well-Known Member

    VF aka 'the thinking man's fighter'.....hopefully always....

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by nascarbryant on 1/5/01 10:47 AM.</FONT></P>
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't know why one question will lead to this worst situation.
    Again my question is is Arkia Down PG break guard is guarantee follow by single kick in tb.

    Also, I agree Every Fighting game need combo but have make to be fair.
    Acoording to the Basic structure of VF . We need combo but have to be fair.
    In VF2, Arkia 's Surprise exchange combo took a look energy. SPOD took a look of energy, Lau rushing is took a look of energy, but it's all fair.

    Reasons,
    1) SPOD is a throw, because u guees your opponent will attack high or middle level. So it's fair u get hit.
    2) Surprise Exchange combo, first it's throw, also every single big follow up u can escape it, whatever is SE-single palm or bodycheck, if it hit because u don't know how to escape or u guess why.
    3) Lau's rushing, I remember Lau is not all winner in VF2 tournment, U tell me why people can BEAT Lau.

    4) IN VF3, Arkia's forward pg breakguard is Fair, because the only situation get u is when u are blocking, it's throw , so it's fair.
    5) suppose down+PG breakguard is also fair, but it's middle attack and it very quick. VF3 Arkia players relied on it too much, because u don't need to think .

    Being polite for showing your family's culture.
     
  8. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    jo, i don't think it worsened anything. i think i used the wrong words in my post, though. i don't think anything, with the exception of bugs like the freeze bug and akira reversal, is "unfair" as in cheap ("bullshit" did not mean cheap). there are, however, moves that are too open to abuse, or just leave far too much advantage for the risk involved, in all of the VF games. i think that tb has the fewest of these moves, and so i can't really complain too much about it when comparing it to VF2.

    if you want to talk about "unfair" things in VF2, (i'd use the term overwhelming, myself), let's talk about PKG-throw; d+P-throw; elbow/uppercut-throw; PK; akira's SE; akira's 2/3 SPoD; mC throw damage; the TFT; combo damage: jeff's knee, jacky's knee, etc; shun puri and so on.

    regarding d+P+G in tb, i think it's guaranteed in close range, closed stance. any other situation the sjk can be avoided. i could be wrong, though, because i don't have to put up with akira's that have to use this move and this move only to win, anymore, thank god.
     
  9. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: VF-BS.

    no. i don't want to. i'm too lazy and tired. also see the other post for my explanation of using "bullshit".

    you could play vf2 and find out all the crazy stuff for yourself, if you'd like...it's not hard to find, if you're comparing it to tb. or look it up.
     
  10. clopin

    clopin Well-Known Member

    if i remember the tb mook and what sumeragi posted before, akira's down-BG, SJK is still guaranteed in tb, but in a reduced 1-2 frame window, so it was made much harder that ob- when you factor in execution at different stances and distances, this window is much harder to take advantage of.

    now, imo, the changes made from ob to tb was reduction of these so called abuse or "overwhemling" moves, i.e., low-risk high-reward (akira's ShRm, Lion's crouching upper, aoi's pppk, jacky's down kk, etc), moves to avoid "mindless" gameplay. even as hard as it is, a well practiced and determined player can eventually learn that guaranteed window in tb for down-BG and it may still seem like an abuse move. however, the _real_ change to the down-BG was if it hit without a counter (that is, not a break-guard, but a high hit). if my memory serves me right, a down-BG hit gives the opponent a guaranteed throw counter. maybe even a P counter.

    if this is true, down-BG is no longer a "bullshit" move. i haven't played in ages, but i think i remember "eating" the down-BG on purpose for a throw opportunity. the akira opponent rarely gets out of the TE since they are looking of the BG to by blocked into SJK.

    when i played against akira, i rarely held guard other than on reaction to shut down BG opportunities. even in ob, BG and down-BG hit led to very bad disadvantage for akira, though maybe not throw counterable.

    also remember, when playing a reverse/inashi-strong character (aoi, akira, pai), the BG and down-BG both reverse high. both aoi (inashi to combo, or closed stance high reversal plus GB) and pai (inashi waza to throw/float combo) have high damage potential to a reversed BG. even better, a BG hitting a throw/reversal whiff is not a counter. thus, akira's opponent can get a throw counter.

    even of my rambling. i think you get the point.


    // clopin
    join #vfhome on the EFnet IRC network
     
  11. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    if it hit without a counter (that is, not a break-guard, but a high hit). if my memory serves me right, a down-BG hit gives the opponent a guaranteed throw counter. maybe even a P counter.

    If Akira's d+PG hits WITH MC, opponent's throw is guaranteed.

    Normal high-hit gives opponent an advantage.
     
  12. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    guh?

    that doesn't make sense. if it MC's, the opponent would have less advantage than if it just hit normally. even the gamest tb movelist says the opponent has +8 frames over akira as a normal hit, +7 as an MC hit.

    but either way, the opponent needs +9 frames to throw someone after being hit by a move, as opposed to the +8 needed after blocking a move.

    so it doesn't add up no matter what. sega probably just fucked around with the move so that it doesn't adhere to the normal rules. sega did that with many moves. ultimately, it's not as bad as it was in VF3ob...but only slightly.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    OK man, may be I am getting old, I quit, have fun

    JOSHUN
     
  14. sta783

    sta783 Well-Known Member

    that doesn't make sense.

    Yup, it quite doesn't make sense, does it?

    sega probably just fucked around with the move so that it doesn't adhere to the normal rules

    More than likely. d+PG(MC) > throw(n) was also in OB too.

    There are other moves that make no (reasonable) sense, such as Lau & Aoi's sidekicks, Akira's f+PG.... All of them guarantee opponent's throw when P-MCed.

    On the other hand, there are other stuff that works the other way around. For example, when Akira's DE (or Kage's sidekick) MC Lion's d/f+P, Lion gets the guaranteed throw.
     

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