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Programmable inputs / Esoteric frame data Q&A

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by KoD, Feb 18, 2008.

  1. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Look at my picture again and count the frames of input for SDE. Is it more than or less than what you're claiming is the maximum amount of time for moves to register?

    This is really just common sense, if you actually only had 10f to get any multi-joystick input motion out, few people would be able to do SDE or 270 throws at all.
     
  2. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    Im not entirely sure what you are after, but when I interrupted the low punch with a SDE after a blocked P, I looked at the frame counter and inasmuch as I can understand it, I was inputting all the inputs required for SDE in 10 frames or less. If I did it slower, my SDE was getting interrupted. If 10 frames is the length of the buffer then it would make sense, yes?

    I wasnt entirely certain about the buffer being 10 frames long, but I am pretty sure about buffering the entire move and then getting it at fastest speed, which is what I tried to say.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is really just common sense, if you actually only had 10f to get any multi-joystick input motion out, few people would be able to do SDE or 270 throws at all.</div></div>
    That is unrelated issue. Im wasnt talking about getting multi-input moves coming out at all, I was talking about them coming out at fastest possible speed. Multi-input moves come out even without the buffer...I mean input some of the inputs AFTER the buffer. You just waste frames doing it. Plus theres always the option of inputting joystick inputs within guard. Which incidentally also causes SDE to come out without wasting frames.
     
  3. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Not 100% sure if this is correct, but my understanding based on my experience and a discussion I had with Maddy (who almost decided to quit playing Akira and switch to Jacky because he can't consistently get SDE out with fastest timing-Evo Days).

    X = frames before the input buffer
    numbers = the last 10 frames of the recovery stun (aka the input buffer)
    - = frames after the recovery stun

    Inputs for SDE that comes out as 15 frames
    x x x x x x x 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - - - -
    __________f___f___f___P

    x x x x x x x 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - - - -
    ______f___f___f___P

    Input for SDE that will come out as 14 frames
    x x x x x x x 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - - - -
    __f___f___f___P

    Failed input for SDE to come out
    x x x x x x x 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - - - -
    f___f___f___P
     
  4. Slide

    Slide Well-Known Member

    That's pretty interesting. Thinking conservative play style, the reward for SDE is almost worth it. I say almost, lol.

    This pretty much means to me though, that you can keep putting yourself at crouched -14 as much as you like cause I doubt Akira's will be able to truly capitalize on reaction. - double palm but I don't know about risking that like that.
     
  5. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Your first claim was that inputs before the 10f buffer don't count. This is false. You have much more than 10f frames to complete multi-joystick-input moves; for instance, you can do half-circle throws with extremely lazy joystick inputs (like 15 frames used on a single direction), and you can do SDE that takes longer than 10f total for all inputs, as my picture shows. *edit* yes, this includes during recovery, not just free motion, again as my picture shows - the SDE was started immediately after the jab, nowhere near the end of recovery.

    Akai's graph seems basically correct. Even if the second part of what you are saying (you did SDE in 10f total, and it came out at fastest timing) is true, it doesn't contradict what he's saying. The issue is whether the dash inputs were before the 10f boundary at the end of recovery, not the total time taken for the dash inputs.

    Bottom line, even if you can do SDE at fastest timing by cramming it all into 10f right before recovery ends (edit - you can't do it this way, it doesn't work, see below). . . you can ALSO do it at fastest timing by doing the dash inputs slower & earlier, then pushing P within the 10f buffer.
     
  6. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    Oops I forgot to put Manji's point about every input in the 10 frame window -

    If you were able to input /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif all within the 10 frame input buffer window, I think it will come out as 15 frames.

    Its pretty easy to use double palm for guarantee damage after blocking a -14 low attack. Akira is already crouched, so you don't need to buffer in a crouch dash and execution is pretty easy. At least offline /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
     
  7. Slide

    Slide Well-Known Member

    Just 46P after that yeah, since the 2 is already in, but it's not a single direction input and if you were attempting something else or prepared to buffer something else entirely and have to change to that... you might not always be ready and it's your own guaranteed punishable move to consider. When it's fleeting and combat is fast, some things can catch you off guard, you hesitate when you defend them and you might not be fully ready to punish with the maximum, in fastest timing. And result have to substitute the punishment for a slightly lessor guaranteed punisher.

    On and offline, I can be locked and loaded to 33K a blocked 6PK but if the K finish catch me off guard when I'm defending and I hesitate I gotta go for a lessor guarantee cause the window is getting smaller.

    I don't really know if I'm making any sense, I just post on impulse.
     
  8. Plague

    Plague Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    plague-cwa
    XBL:
    HowBoutSmPLAGUE
    Pretty damn cool for an impulse post. Whenever I try to post from impulse, it often looks like this:

    SDU*#j a kassj spazzae3 a3w0 FEWWE!
     
  9. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    What plague says, your post make sense, Slide.
     
  10. Slide

    Slide Well-Known Member

    For lack of better words I just post instantly what comes to mind, edit it afterwards.
     
  11. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    I also post on impulse, and I cant be arsed to argue right now so I let you win this one. Think whatever you like. Plague is the only one of you inputting 14 frame SDEs anyway.
     
  12. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Dude, you're the one who came into this thread with ALL CAPS talking about how info that's been known since VF4 days DOESNT REGISTER, and you haven't backed it up with squat.

    Videos incoming, wait for it. . .
     
  13. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    So how come when you're at +4 it pwns 10 frame jabs?

    I really don't know what most people are talking about in this thread, everyone seems confused.
     
  14. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    If you can input SDE to execute in 14 frames than, yeah, it should beat a 10 frame attack at +4 :p. In certain situations, though, Akira's SDE avoids high jab. Try consistently getting SDE to pwn low punch at +2. If you can input SDE consistently to execute at 14 frames, good for you!

    Is it possible to execute SDE in 14 frames? Yes
    Is it more difficult to execute it to come out in 14 frames than other moves that do not have a dash motion? Yes

    Still confused?
     
  15. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
  16. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
  17. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    I thought you had 10 frames to input it, that's why i'm confused everyone is saying confusing stuff about input buffering and the the buffering window.

    And yah i'm fine at getting it out in the situations you described and while we're on that... doesn't doing a SDE at +2 to pwn low p prove you have to input the entire SDE within the 10 frame buffering window?

    EDIT: Nevermind at the last bit of my post, told you I was confused /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
     
  18. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member

    PSN:
    Akai_JC
    XBL:
    Akai JC
    If you are confused with my diagrams, the wiki most likely explains it better than I can

    Or look at KoD's youtube video and read the explanation he put in the youtube page.

    You have my greatest respect, then, that you can consistently execute it to come out at 14 frames /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif .
     
  19. Feck

    Feck Well-Known Member Content Manager Akira

    Right I just read all the last few pages again...

    Post this quote is from made most sense to me, thing is though second way you described KoD. It doesn't work for me at all, i'm not doubting it does work just weird that I can get it in by doing late in recovery but not the other way you describe.

    Thanks for the help akai /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

    and LOL at that last bit, I said i'm fine at it not I am a jedi!
     
  20. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Just in case anyone still has any lingering doubts about this SDE / fastest input issue, or wants a way to practice, here's a way to prove it to yourself:

    Go to dojo, play akira vs lion. Set cpu to guard and lowpunch. Do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif ~ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif ~ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. This is, frame-wise, exactly the same as doing jab ~ sde vs a normal character's lowpunch ( +1, 13f sde against lions 13f lowpunch instead of +2, 12f sde against normal 12f lowpunch).

    Despite being exactly the same frame wise, it is fuck-off easier to do compared to jab ~ sde. Standing palm has nearly twice as much recovery as jab, so it gives you plenty of time to lazily tap forward 3 times before pushing P.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div')[1].getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">[​IMG]

    Obviously, this is (my) human input - notice the vast amount of time wasted tapping forward 3 times, and yet lion is pwned</div></div></div>

    If the "only sde in 10f total at the end of recovery works" camp was correct, these two would be roughly the same difficulty, since you'd have to cram your entire SDE input into the same-size 10f window.
     

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