Progressive scan?

This is likely a stupid question but I am wondering if VF4: Evo for PS2 supports progressive scan or not. I searched the forums here and found discussions regarding the potential inclusion of progressive scan in the U.S/EU versions of Evo but no confirmation.

What's the story? Does any version of Evo support progressive scan?

 

No version of evo supports progressive scan but rumours were that a progressive scan debug version was floating about in the offices of Sega. /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

any decent tv like toshibas "picture frame" will make it prog scan

i will run some tests soon to see how many pico seconds the upscaller puts on it and other prog scan displays!

 

after some tests i would have to say RGB is best display!

with a "progressive scan" display, the game does not really need a progressive scan mode/option

as your tv should have enough power to interpolate the scan lines to to solid frames, the thing is if the picture dsp is fast enough?

i have tryed componant out puts from a ps2, and the picture is great, but on some displays you WILL be forced to play in 16:9/widescreen!

so as in reality RGB is a type of component picture, and the fact its native to whats stored on the disc, ohh and if its a CRT display, the last chain link is RGB to the electronguns, RGB is the best

 

I disagree, completely. VF4 Evo would benifite immensely from progressive scan support. HDTVs that use "digital reality creation" or cinemotion or whatever slick name they come up with for a simple line doubler do NOT work for videogames. These concepts were designed for 30 frame per second media (or less), as we know VF4 Evo on PS2 runs at a healthy 60 frames per second. This causes the line doublers to slightly blurr the images when they are in motion. It cannot compare to the crispness of true 480p of something like Soul Calibur II on PS2. (I heard that even Mortal Kombat Deception supports progressive scan, if so thats really sad that Evo doesnt)

The good news is. If VF4 FT ever makes its way home, we will likely see it in progressive scan. Even if its a PS2 port once more. I doubt very much they would be careless enough to neglect that feature again.

-DeathCom

 

duhh, that DRC is a sony upsampler

thats is different to prog scan converter from say fraoudja

and there is one flaw in your argument

VF on ps2 dont output at 60frames per sec

its 30frames per sec, only prog scan games like SC2 does SOLID 60 frames!

 

VF4 on PS2 does output 60 frames per second. SCII in 480i mode is still 60fps as well. This is why line doublers dont work.

Now yes, neither game outputs a full resolution frame at 60fps unless its a progressive scan format.

However, there in lies the problem. At 480i, TV still operates at 60FIELDS per second. A line doubler will grab the even lines, then in the next field, the odd lines, then combine them for a progressive 30fps image. The problem is, the second set of lines being sent in a 60fps game are not of the same frame when the line doubler looks for them. So, using 3:2 pulldown or bob and weve, the image becomes blurred slightly as the two frames are combined. For 30 frame per second media, the line doubler will grab lines from the same frame and combine it for a semi realistic looking progressive image.

So you see, no matter how you slice it, data is lost with a line doubler and thus the image will never compare to a true progressive scan one.

-DeathCom

 

look mate, im a broadcast engineer.

TVs have raster scanlines, which is a Field per cycle,

VF in the arcades uses a Medium Rez monitor, simaler to a PC monitor, as in it has nor scanlines, it can take 60 solid frames per second!

VF on ps2 "reads" your controler 60 times per second, but as a ps2 is compatable with a TV, it will only ever output a 60hz display, and as TVs only can take and interlaced picture, guess what? yes that means the ps2 only outputs at 60feilds per second (bar 1 to 3ns of jitter)

the 3:2 pull down you mention does not apply with games

in the USA (in in london) when films/movies are transfered to video, it creates extra frames that wasnt from the 24frames per sec film reel! as we all know that NTSC is 29.97 frames per second, so the 3;2 conversion throws away the extra frames that are not needed, to try recreate more of a film look in progressive scan viewing of dvds/films

in the UK we dont have this as they just speed up the 24frames per sec film/movie to fit to are PAL 25frames video, the bad thing is that filmes are now pitched up 4% (which sounds minor, but as a DJ and they will tell u its bad!) and the film is now 4% shorter also (a comon misconception is that all uk films are cut/censored but its just the 4% loss)

there are was arround this with re-EQing, but everyone lazy. the good thing though is that UK dvds have nearly 100 more lines of H rez

if your really gonna argue "VF runs at 60frames" more with me, remember this 60hz/cycles does not = frames, it =feilds.

 

Look, I fully understand what your saying, totally get how TVs do 60fields per second, only progressive signals are 60frames per second.

But what Im saying is, the PS2 doesnt understand fields, it only knows frames. The VF4 on PS2 operates at 60 frames per second. True, NTSC and such limit this to only getting half the lines of resolution every 1/60th a second (the rest of the data is simply lost in the conversion to NTSC). Im not arguing that. But what Im saying is, a line doubler doesnt have much to work with considering the source. The problem is the odd fields and the even fields are part of two different frames of data! It cant be reconstructed as nicely as you could with a source material that is 30fps or less.

Thats all Ive been saying. Im not trying to argue 60 frames = fields or such nonsense as that. This is about the quality of a line doubled image vs that of true progressive scan. You being a broadcast engineer, I cant fathom why you would think they are of compareable quality? (talking about something like SCII that has both progressive and standard options). You dont deny that VF4 Evo would be better with progressive scan support. But you said it really isnt needed. I disagreed, thats all Im saying here.

-DeathCom

 

a line doubler can work with a normal interlaced display also,

that works on interpolating the image, profesional ones from snell and wilcox all look at past frames and incoming frames to workout what to do, some serious cpu power! same as their standards converter.

prog scan dosent put artifacts like line upscalers can, its simple

the the 1st odd fields get comebined with the the 1st even fields, this becomes the 1st frame, but the display will still show 2wice, kinda how in cinemas the film reel is shown at 48frames persecond, even though its only filmed/recorded at 24fps, so u cant see the flicker so bad!

also, ps2,vcrs or whatever do not out put frames, it out puts fields.

on a waveform ossiloscope you can actually see the 2 fields side by side at the same time on the same screen.

if u have a dvd with a timecoded deleated extra, have a look at it and the TCR should have a * mark near the frame numbers, this denots what field it is on!

regarding progscan games, they actually do out put solid frames, this only works with a YUV component lead, as there is increased bandwith output, that baseband composite or even s-video couldnt handle.

i hope you understand.

 

I currently use the component cables to play VF4:Evo with my PS2 on a non-HDTV/Monitor. I am asking for the bottom line? Will I notice an improved picture if I get a true High Definition TV/Monitor and use it to play VF:Evo on my PS2 or not.

 

well the thing is, even if it did "upsample" the picture to Hi Def, it will most likely put lag when you play! anything between 1/10 of a sec upto 1 or 2 seconds!!!

normaly you can shut off any "100hz" mode or "Digital Reality Creation" modes
but most plasmas need to convert whatever input to its native resalution, it may do it good or bad!

best thing is to go to a store and tell them your interested in buying a HDTV but can you test out what TVs will run your ps2 without lag!!!

in the uk this happens all the time, with people bringing a import gamecube to see if it run a game in prog scan (uk game cubes dont hav prog scan!)

 

Well, Mcoleman2 if your looking for a HDTV for gaming, you should steer clear of plasmas anyway. Burn in is a real problem still on those models. LCD flat panel TVs are both expensive, and still have a hint of motion blur for fast moving objects, so that can rule those out too.

Id say the gamer's choice still lies in tube HDTVs. Pretty much all of them have built in line doublers. But Ive personally seen Sony's, Phillips, and Panasonic's with no delay for their line doublers. (though some Panasonics dont have any support for 720p, they dont even convert it, so Id avoid those sets) The quality of this aspect and its options will mostly impact VF4 Evo's look.

But as for your bottom line question, I would give you the bottom line answer of yes. HDTVs are generally going to give you a sharper image for even SDTV signals like those from your PS2. The down side is, VF4 Evolution doesnt support Widescreen in any form. So, unless you dont mind bars on both sides of the image, you will have to see the set's various stretch and zoom modes. Stretch will make everyone fat, but is pretty much universally the same on most HDTVs. Zoom modes vary from each manufacturer. Phillips for example has some stupid limitations on some (like no Zoom or 4:3 support on component in, only stretch. Sony's wont let you zoom or stretch a 720p or greater signal, but you dont need too because they are already 16:9 by nature.)

The overall improvement wont be as great as it would for a game like Soul Calibur II (which supports 480p and widescreen), but the color should be more pure/vivid, and you should have virtually no color bleeding on a good set.

-DeathCom