projectiles in 3D fighters

Discussion in 'General' started by agios_katastrof, Jun 4, 2002.

  1. agios_katastrof

    agios_katastrof Well-Known Member

    As a recent 2D to 3D convert, I am enjoying VF4 quite a bit, but I have to say, that I am missing one simple thing: the projectile.

    The other day, after a futile attempts to convert an old SF buddy of mine to VF4, we popped in CVS2, and had some kick arse time with old school Ryu, Guile & Co. Btw, imho, Guile has to be the best designed fighting game character ever. "Best" meaning, not the most powerful, but simply, the most fun character to use. Projectiles simply add more to the game.

    Which got me thinking, as to why 3Ds generally don't have projectiles. Now I have played some of the 3Ds with projectiles, and generally speaking, they were pretty bad, but they weren't Tekken or VF to begin with. I realize that adding projectiles would make VF not a VF game, but I think if Namco or Sega/AM2 gave it a go, they can come up with a pretty solid 3D fighter featuring a projectile. Capcom as good as they are with 2Ds, have repeatedly shown that they suck with 3Ds (SFEX, Rival Schools, etc). But I remember that there was this one 3D fighter, I forget the name of which, there was this armored woman using a sword+dagger, and with projectiles (heck, aerial projectiles, a la Akuma), and the game wasn't half bad. It could have been a pretty cool game with some more work.

    Oh well. Just wishful thinking.
  2. blackshadow

    blackshadow Well-Known Member

    the main reason they dont use projectiles n 3d fighters is n my oppion becuase it jus takes extra time to make the graphics for it and that it can make the game extremly cheap but some can do that on there own wit jus gay moves n another thing rival skoola waz a phat game fool!!!!
  3. nycat

    nycat Well-Known Member

    VOOM and VOOT by Sega were filled with both projectiles and 3D wonderfilled fights, no? I used to hear rumors of weapons for VF series. Perhaps in VF5 we will see Kage throw a steel star with razor edges and Aoi a needle dagger with streamers?
  4. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    i don't like the idea. strangely, s-kill of expressed how he thought that virtua on was the best 3D fighter since it had projectiles...strange, i don't consider THAT a fighting game.

    the main reason why i don't want projectiles in a 3D game is because that's what i don't expect from a ring fight featuring 2 combatants using their bare hands and feet to fight! you want screen-filling projectiles, go play MVC2(which is a tite 2D game, BTW, getting old, but i still get interested by it)

    btw(going to stray in 2D fighting game territory now), correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't modern-day guile not use his sonic boom as much? this was the case in CVS1(where he almost didn't need it at all), i dunno if it's still the case in CVS2. in any case, most of the projectiles that are used in 2D games are used to POKE the opponent at sweep range, not throw them at full range(ryu/ken/akuma are good examples).
  5. stompoutloud

    stompoutloud Well-Known Member

    the only games I knew that were 3d polygonal fighters and had projectiles were Bio freaks, War Gods, and MK4. But I didn't really get into any of those games. I have all three on the N64, since they were all bargain basement priced games.
  6. ghostdog

    ghostdog Well-Known Member

    I think Tobal 2 did a decent job in adding projectiles to the game. The character could fire a projectile, and charge it up for more power. But that would drain the life out of the character. It discouraged the player from backing off and firing projectiles, but the upside was that the opponent took massive damage if s/he was hit by one.
  7. Murasame

    Murasame Well-Known Member

    Given that they'd be unblockable, I think it's hard to work any projectile attack into Tekken/VF that manages to stay inbetween overpowered and useless.
  8. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    I think you're looking for Rival Schools or Project Justice. As far as Capcom-inspired fighting engine in 3d form, those games do a good job.

    However, I think projectils would totally kill what makes the flow of VF what it is. To me, hardly any other fighting game (2d or 3d) captures the fast paced, rapidly intense up-close exchanges and initiative trades that the VF games provide--particularly VF4.

    My experience with the Tekken games is that there's a lot of running away and baiting the opponent into attacking until you find an opening to exploit and do massive damage. This isn't bad, this is common for most fighting games and I'll admit I happily play this way in many fighters. But VF is a system that promotes players to ACTIVELY defend, rewarding the player if their defense (as well as their offense) is successful. VF has an excellent range game, but the heart of the series is still in the up close combat with rapid wit, knowledge, and mindgames.

    VF already has a lot of ticks that serve the same type of pressure ticks that projectiles provide in other games--implementing long range projectiles like other games have would just slow it down greatly unless we gave it Last-Bronx like jumping arcs and speed (meaning that jumps are very fast, but very high) or if we gave the characters the ability to attack and break the fireballs like in Rival Schools. There are other ways of handling the game so that the characters could avoid projectiles, but it would still just ultimately slow down the pace of the game and dumb down a lot of the types of mindgames that VF has.

  9. gaishou

    gaishou Well-Known Member

    dont forget street fighter ex........

    wargods and biofreaks were both horrendous.......i cannot believe they actually made those games and marketed them.....
  10. agios_katastrof

    agios_katastrof Well-Known Member

    I've tried Rival Schools. The game is fun... but the game engine suffers from two broken features, namely 'tardy counters' and those wacky team supers. Tardy counters means anytime any one of your move is blocked, you are dead. And those team supers are dead easy to do, instantaneous, and pretty much outprioritizes all. They are like DOA reversals, that work at ANY level. I think sans tardy counters, and if the supers were more traditional (requiiring some complex motion, and varying degrees of effectiveness), the game might have been good. But as it was, it was just plain bad. I did have some fun with that leggy teacher and the old-fart Ryu, though.

    SFEX - ugh...

    VOOM was a fun game, but I agree with aforementioned comments... it's not a fighter. It's more like a dogfighting air combat game. A very good one at that, but not a fighter.

    I don't remember Tobal...

    I'm not asking for a VF/Tekken/SC with fireballs, and recognize that those games would probably be broken with any sort of a projectile. But I wish that there was something like Rival Schools, that was an actual serious fighter.

    Oh and yeah, new-school Guiles and Ryus just do that roll, run, low-jump business, and not much sonic booms and hadokens. Would'ja believe that they play it almost like a 3D game. Personally, I prefer the old-school style where fireballs are used to zone. And note how the pokers, and the none-fireballers dominate the game now (Blanka, Sagat, who is used w/o fireballs, Cammy, Honda, etc.). Heck, this is why I switched to 3Ds in the first place. I figured that at this point where the whole projectile zoning game has been neutered, I might as well play a 3D game. Don't get me wrong, I think rolls and whatnot have their place in 2Ds too, but not for everybody... geez...
  11. gaishou

    gaishou Well-Known Member

    wasnt there a sequel to tobal that didnt come out in the states???
  12. Robyrt

    Robyrt Well-Known Member

    I never understood the point of 3D fireballs, except to force people to sidestep. If it's blockable, it's basically a long-range kick; if it's unblockable, it's basically a charge move (since it needs a lot of startup to prevent abuse). If you're going to put fireballs in a 3D fighter, it should be heavily projectile based ala VOOT.
  13. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Couldn't resist....

    If you're speaking of VOOT, I've labeled it a combat game... But when you watch the Seattle/Auburn, WA VOOT players play--it's practically a fighting game. Those guys just love up-close combat and the derived techniques of the form in the game.

    The level of intensity in the game, in up-close as well as long-range combat is truly a gem of accomplishment.

    ...Back to 2d/3d discussions, I guess the reason I like Street Fighter 3: Third Strike is that it feels like a 2d fighter using much of the same principles of a 3d fighter, while still maintaining some things 2d-ish. I still have a wonderful time playing any of the Street Fighter 2 games (though it is frustrating to play against really good Dhalsim players--but I love frustration in fighting games).

    I guess I didn't mention Street Fighter EX (though it was on my mind) because as much as I enjoy it on some levels, it seems to have been one of the titles that was alienated from (at least the North American) Street Fighter audience. Whereas Rival Schools seems to have been accepted, though I think most of its audience are western anime-fanatics. I also feel that Rival Schools is an extension of the EX series.

    Hehe, I didn't play much of War Gods (nor did I play much of Mace). I guess we could also stick in MK4? hehehe

    Can anyone comment on the SNK-based 3d fighters? I heard a lot of them (if not all of them) turned out mediocre, but I'm still curious.

    As for the Tobal series, I love Tobal No 1 and Tobal 2. In addition, after suggestion from Myke long ago, I spent more time on Ehrgeiz--more time understanding the engine and possibilities--and I really did start to truly enjoy that game. Once you defeat the projectile system in the game (finding out how to take advantage of an opponent because they used it), the game gets quite interesting.

  14. agios_katastrof

    agios_katastrof Well-Known Member

    Ah, Mace, yeah, that was the game (with the armored woman throwing fireballs)! The game actually had issues galore, not the least of which was the ridiculously unresponsive controls, but it had pretty cool characters, and it was fun in its own right.

    Can't say I've seen any high level VOOM gameplay. Looking forwards to Zone of Enders 2, however. ZOE1 gameplay was pretty lame, but ZOE2 will hopefully be a bit better.

    I've played SF3:Double Impact, but not Third Strike. Yeap, the SF3 series, with parries, dashes, overheads and superjumps, is what really started SF on the road to 3D like play imho.

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