Properties of the different kinds of dashes

Translated from Arcadia 83

You can G-cancel all of the various dashes, but only after a certain amount of time has passed. The delay before you can cancel varies, so see the following table for details:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" style="height: 128px;"><pre>
Dash Type Guard after Standing/Crouching
--------------------------------------------------------------
Forward 4 Standing from 1st frame
Back 21 Standing from 1st frame
Crouch Forward 7 Crouching from 6th frame
Crouch Back 7 (6 from crouch) Crouching from 8th frame
</pre></div></div>

The most obvious observation here is that with a window of 20 frames before you can guard, back dash is very dangerous. If your opponent sees it coming, even slow moves will hit you. Although you move away and can cancel with evade, if the opponent goes for a long range full circular move like a roundhouse kick, you are in danger.
Even if you hold G as soon as you start your dash, your dash will only get canceled after a certain number of frames. Using this to your advantage, you can execute a very precise fuzzy guard from crouching -5 or -6 by crouch dashing back at -6 or crouch dashing forward at -5. Doing this you can crouch light and mid-weight punches, and guard moves slower than low punch. Because you are crouching for so long, you are also difficult to throw. Use this in situations like after hitting a low kick or sweep.
The fact that it takes time before you can guard also affects other unexpected facets of gameplay. One of these is using a forward crouch dash to avoid a throw-mid nitaku when you're at -6.
In this situation, you cannot block until the 13th frame, so you get hit by low punches. In addition, you will remain standing until the 11th frame, so you will also get hit by light and medium weight punches. It is a useful technique, but remember that it loses to small moves.

PS If anyone knows how to make a table, let me know /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

The last paragraph about using crouch dash to guard mid and throw is not very clear.

So basically if you use fuzzy at -6, you are guaranteed to be hit by low punch and light/medium class standing P? Is that what the article is saying?

I guess going by the data number wise, it is true.

 

WTF

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The last paragraph about using crouch dash to guard mid and throw is not very clear.

So basically if you use fuzzy at -6, you are guaranteed to be hit by low punch and light/medium class standing P? Is that what the article is saying?

I guess going by the data number wise, it is true. </div></div>

It's saying that you can get out of someone trying to do a launcher/throw nitaku game because you will duck the throw and block the launcher. After that they just want to make sure you don't think it's an invincible strategy so they tell you that if someone throws out a high or low punch it will most likely hit you.

Also, just for the record, they are talking specifically about using a crouch dash to do the fuzzy timing for you. Obviously fuzzying yourself you can adjust the timing to be whatever you want... (though you can't duck throws any other way at -6)

 

Well if you stay in crouch dash longer you will be hit by fast mid attacks.. THe window is very small. In this sense beating the perfect fuzzy with delayed throw is about as mechanical procedure as fuzzy itself /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif although in -5 you can just d+G fuzzy which is immune to 11 frame P and d+P.

 

i dont understand how can you back dash from an 8th frame of a crouch.....guess you have to practice to get the time right...button smashing comes in handy

 

How many frames is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif and in how many of those frames can you still get thrown?

 

It takes seven frames to crouch from standing by holding down (and you can get thrown any of those)

 

It's saying that you can get out of someone trying to do a launcher/throw nitaku game because you will duck the throw and block the launcher. After that they just want to make sure you don't think it's an invincible strategy so they tell you that if someone throws out a high or low punch it will most likely hit you.

Also, just for the record, they are talking specifically about using a crouch dash to do the fuzzy timing for you. Obviously fuzzying yourself you can adjust the timing to be whatever you want... (though you can't duck throws any other way at -6) </div></div>

You can not adjust the timing for a fuzzy at -6.

Going by the arcadia data, at -6, if you execute a forward crouch dash, you can guard after 7 frames. This means that you can guard by the 13th frame which is why you can avoid a 14 frame MID attack and a 12 frame THROW.

But a LP (except Lion)/Standing P (light and mid weights) run between 10 and 12 frames. Which means that both of them can hit a fuzzying opponent at +6, and it's not just likely, it is definite going by the data.

 

Thanks, raoul.
Wow, this is really interesting stuff! Rading this has really changed the way I look at VF and it is totally going to change my approach and the way I play.
VF's 6 or Evo should definitely have frame data and training in it's dojo.
Thnks again raoul, Srider and everyone else who contributes.

 

I'd actually noticed myself getting hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif when trying to fuzzy @ -6, but I thought I was messing up the input. I'd like to test what Akai is talking about: can we duck a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif @ -6?

 

Raoul and I tested Akai's claim, and we did find out that you can hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to duck under the high /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, but you can not duck under a throw.

If you use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif to fuzzy, you can avoid the throw, but you will be hit with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.

Which is very strange.

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. So my question on this is:

If you CD and then push /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif you will get hit by P and 2P but you can avoid slower high moves and block mid moves, but if you fuzzy the normal way 2G the 0-frame crouch idea comes into play and you can avoid all highs and block mids. Does the 7-frame or 6-frame crouch happen when you CD though. I guess I am missing something.

 

Hey DFG /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

In certain situations, you will get hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif when going for fuzzy guard. Here are some of the reasons:

-Some high punch attacks are 10 or 11 frames of execution. If you time your fuzzy guard "too perfectly," you'll achieve crouching state when they hit their 12th frame (which would be when they throw). If you fail to reach crouching state by the 10th or 11th frame, a high punch will hit you if that character's high punch is faster than 12 frames. (Aoi, Jeffry, and Wolf have 12 frame high punches so fuzzy will beat their high punch).

-Keep in mind that at -6, CD will crouch at the 12th frame. You will duck under a 12 frame high punch. At -5, CD will crouch at the 11th frame. You will duck under an 11 frame high punch, but you need to hold the crouch one extra frame so you won't stand up into the throw. At -4, CD will crouch at the 10th frame and you will duck under a 10 frame punch, but you will have to hold the crouch state an extra two frames to not stand up into a throw.

-Low punch is typically 12 frames of execution (Lion's is 13 frames). This is the same as a throw. The crouch dash method of fuzzy guard will get hit by a 12 frame low punch because it's trying to duck under the throw that would happen around the same frame--but you're not guarding low when you do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif fuzzy. You're merely ducking under a throw attempt and blocking any mid, high, or special low attack that's slower than the throw. Against Lion, you would get the block if you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif fast enough (it's easy to do with the crouch-dash fuzzy guard).

-I can't comment on /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif as an alternative at -5 or better. Maybe that would beat a low punch, but I haven't confirmed or tried it. If anything, it'll probably throw the "easy timing" of crouching and then standup guard. At this point, however, you might as well just use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif for fuzzy though because it would be easier and more effective than doing this.

-Here's clarification on a big distinction between /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif fuzzy and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif fuzzy:

* A low block will instantly duck a high attack and low block a low attack. If the high attack comes out, ducking will happen instantly if you you are doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif. If low attack comes out, it will instantly block low. If a mid attack comes out, you'll probably instantly get staggered.

* A low block will not instantly duck a throw. It will crouch at normal speed which requires a few frames (12-5 = 7 frames, so my guess is it takes 7 frames to reach crouching state with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif if your opponent is not attacking).

* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is a fuzzy guard where you start with a low block and end with a high block. It's more complete than the crouch-dash method. However, because it takes longer to crouch with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif if no attack is occuring, it has certain requirements.

* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif is the crouch dash method of fuzzy guard. This method is NOT BLOCKING LOW. It's not blocking on the way to crouch either. It's manually getting to crouch in the fastest way possible (when your opponent is not attacking). The purpose of this fuzzy guard is to duck throws and block mid/high attacks. The blocking happens only after you duck the 12th frame.

- CD Fuzzy will get hit by low attacks unless the low attack is slow enough that the fuzzy-guarding player can low block on reaction a good while after the fuzzy guard.

To list out the ESTIMATED speeds of crouching:
* INSTANT - /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif when opponent attacks (does not count throws)
* 6 frames - Crouch Dash
* 7 frames - /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif when opponent is throwing or not attacking

This is why you can instantly duck high attacks or low block low attacks, but you cannot instantly duck a throw. The opponent's attack triggers the instant low block. Throws do not.

Hope this helps some people's understanding of fuzzy guard better ^_^ Also hope it's correct of course

-Chanchai

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Thanks a lot for that clarification. So in a since it's better to do standing fuzzy guard against 10 frame jabers while CD fuzzy is good against slower jabers like Aoi, Wolf, etc at 12 frames. Is this correct?

 

I honestly recommend going with what works best and is most comfortable for you. Your most consistent good option is often times your best option until you can take it to another level.

However, the common guidelines for fuzzy guard is to go with the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif method when possible and then use CD-fuzzy in that other case where it can be used.

So...

-1 ~ -5 disadvantage:
use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif because it is the more complete fuzzy guard and is useable in these disadvantage situations.

-6 disadvantage:
use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/n.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif because it's the only fuzzy guard you can use here, it's easy to time, but it will get hit by low punch and the faster high punches.

-7 or worse disadvantage:
You can't fuzzy, because you cannot crouch under a throw. If your opponent goes for the throw, you must either commit to an attack (preferebly an unclashable attack) or input the proper throw escape. ETEG becomes a very good option here (well, it's a great option in general lol, but its importance shines here).

So given all of the above, Myke's post in the Brad thread should become very clear in all of its implications and I think the bigger picture on fuzzy guard should make a lot more sense now. I'll repost it here /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

BTW, gotta love VF! Fuzzy guard is a great option, but that's all it is--a defensive "option" (a good one of course). Nothing game-breaking about it, just another dynamic that goes with the post-VF4 logic. I really love this game, this series, and the direction its been heading (as controversial as that can be for some).

-Chanchai

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. Thanks man. That helped a lot!!

 

Yo, this is DancingFighterG. I have had some success with this but I'm have a question on something. For some reason when I get hit by a regular hit P and I try to CD -> G I can't dodge the throw. I don't know why because for example Goh is at +5 on hit thus I'm at -5 so based the criteria I should be able to CD the throw. Am I missing something?