Protesting in China - demanding a Japanese apology

Most of my friends are Chinese and I have been engaged in quite a bit of conversations and writing quite a bit of emails relating to this subject.

This demand has been prompted by (among other things) the recently approved Japanese text books that describes the Nanjing massacre as an "incident."

These books supposedly whitewash Japan's occupation in the 1930's.

What do you guys think? Should Japan specifically apologize for such war crime atocities?

** If you do not know much of this situation, please do a few google searches or something**

 

Just in:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8261067

 

Thank you for that.

I am eager to see if the PM of Japan will directly apologize to the President of China for Nanjing if they have a meeting. I only say this because many Chinese feel that PM Junichiro Koizumi's apology should have directly mentioned China and Nanjing.

 

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert on this, just me putting my view in. If I seem uninformed about something it's probably because I am.

That said how much difference would a direct apology make to the protesters in China? There is obviously a long history of conflict between Japan and China. With this much passion driving the debate I'm not so sure. Also this story was of interest:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/14/japan.textbook.ap/
The book, while being approved for use, has been denounced by the Japen's leading teaching union and is barely being used at all. The book obviously has a bias to it, and the group that wrote the textbook is clearly conservative. So despite the obvious bias, which most japanese schools have seen and acted upon by not using the book, the controversy has still been enough to cause such large protests. Just to clarify I don't defend Japan's past actions, and an apology seems appropriate to me, I just think that there has been an over-reaction. What are other peoples opinions on this? I'll be interested so see how much the protests decrease/increase over the next few weeks.

 

I have no idea how many Chinese were killed by the brutal Japanese conquest. Those were definitely horrific atrocities.

That said, no one can outdo the Chinese when it comes to killing Chinese people. The "Great Leap Forward" policiesof the 1950s predictably led to a massive famine which claimed the lives of perhaps 30,000,000 people.

The Cultural Revolution killed as many as 10,000,000 people in the 60's and 70's.

Since these periods were presumably more disasterous in terms of lost lives, one would think that the Chinese would be protesting the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe they don't becasue they will be shot if they do.

 

Where did you get those statistics, and how are they relevant?

Let me answer for you: they're not, and they do not disguise Japan's horrible war atrocities in any way. Japan's dodging about the issue prevents closure on this topic. Japan should follow Germany's foot steps following WWII...fully admit to what they've done, properly and accurately record those actions in history, apologize, be remorseful, and then hopefully everyone can move on.

There is a perception that Japan does not really think it has done anything wrong in the war.

 

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There is a perception that Japan does not really think it has done anything wrong in the war.

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That's not completely true, but you do have a point. I think Japan feels that it will be dishonored and will look foolish in the eyes of the world. Also it will feel that it will lose business with the rest of the world if they admit that they did the attrocities.

 

well japan has already lost some business. I cant remember all the specifics, but basically a japanese company was going to go through wit ha major deal to fix transport links (rail etc) in china, from shanghai to beijing, and a large number of chinese people petitioned against it and thus got the deal to cancel. Good to see that a couple of chinese still havent forgotten what the japanese did. Unfortunately a large number of those protests started in the usual way. peaceful and than a couple of violence cases against jap businesses. Why can ppl never protest peacefully? one answer would be that it never works, but hey im open to suggestion...............

 

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"Southeast Asia doesn't like to see two elephants fight," said Toh Lamseng, a visiting professor of international relations at Peking University. "If they do, smaller countries might get smashed."

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The president Hu and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi met yesterday for an hour, to calm the controversey.

I wonder what else they talked about behind those doors?

That quote can be found here

 

I think that it is a worldwide trend that many countries/governments are heading right wing. This can be see in the US, many European countries, and also in Japan. Whether this is a defensive reaction to globalization or just a big coincidence is beyond me.

The right wing people here in Japan are quite extreme. My school is right near the Imperial Palace, and it is a fairly common sight to see a parade of large black trucks with super loud megaphones saying that Japan needs to reinstate the Emperor their God, rid Japan of the American devils, etc etc. They want simply to push Japan back to the days when it was shut off from the rest of the world. And the Emperor is infallible. When the Mayor of Hiroshima spoke out in the 1990s saying that the Emperor was at least partly guilty in Japan's march to war, they promptly shot him.

In Japan all textbooks used in schools have to be approved by the government first. Interestingly enough, the government tends to approve ONLY the books written by rightists such as the people who shot the mayor of Hiroshima. The language regarding WWII (especially Nanking) has increasingly become evasive, much to the dismay of the Chinese.

These demonstrations are very interesting, as they happen to come at the same time that Japan is petitioning for a Security Council seat on the UN. In a country with such tight civil controls as China, I find it very unlikely that such large demonstrations could be held without at least slight government support. In a country where there are going to be increasingly sharp distinctions between haves- and have-nots in the near future (China), the whole affair seems like a big distraction to me.

If Japan were smart, they would see what is in Chinese textbooks, because I imagine that they do not cast a very nice light on Japan.

If Japan wants to be respected by its Asian neighbors, however, it needs to do what it can to ease tensions, and that can only start by limiting the overt presence of the right wing in its educational and governmental institutions.

 

Relevance

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Where did you get those statistics, and how are they relevant?

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I got those numbers from a class I took as an undergrad on Contemporary Chinese History. It was taught by a Sinologist who got his Phd from Harvard and was actually somewhat of an apologist for the PRC.

I think that bringing death and misery to any country is deplorable. That Japan tries to whitewash its history is very disturbing. They should not. However, of all the powerful nations in the world, none has a population that is as propagandized as the Chinese population. It is hypocritical for the Chinese to ask another country to stop whitewashing their history.

That said, Japan has for the last 60 years had no military as response to what the nation has recognized as their own aggressive militarism of the first half of the 20th century. As in Germany, there are hard-line right wing elements who want to revive the belligerent nationalism of the past. These elements may even be stronger in Japan than in Germany, but I can't say.

At any rate, the Chinese request for another country to stop whitewashing its history rings farcical.

 

Thank you all for your posts.

I would like to see more opinions of people who live in either Japan or China such as mukatsuku_shun.

N

 

Heh.

I was waiting for this one.

 

Re: Relevance

Basically, those statistics came from what you heard and remembered. Right. I am surprised because, as you pointed out, China keeps strict controls on its own history. So those numbers, I'm guessing, and if you recalled them correctly, are your Hahvud PHD's guesses.

But you know what?

It is STILL irrelevant. How China records its own history does not affect Chinese people's views of how Japan records its own history in relation to China. Hypocritical or not, the point still stands:

If Japan wants to get along with China, it needs to own up on the war atrocities it had perpetuated in China.

 

Re: Relevance

Jeff, you seem really defensive on this point. SgtRamrod basically agreed that Japan should own up for what it's done, because what happened in Nanking was really horrible. Yet, seems like you want him to shut up about China's own wrong-doings, in the past or present:

The vice-president of Beijing's Taiwan Affairs Office, Wang Zaixi said "Taiwan's President Chen Shui-Bien's recent pro-separatist activities had crossed Beijing's 'red line' and run the risk of triggering a war with the mainland."

While I'm not positive, I've also heard that China has threatened to attack the US with nuclear missles if we intervene on behalf of Taiwan's independence. While I don't think it's really our place to get involved in Taiwan (but maybe it is, I'm not really well-informed enough to say); this kind of behavior is pretty fucking lame.

I think SgtRamrod's point is just this: what Japan did happened over half a century ago, and what they did shouldn't be covered up or forgetten (see the film Red Sorghum, first film directed Zhang Yimou). But, it does seem (to those of us outside Japan and China) like a load of crap for a country, who perpitrates aggressions against it's own people AND other countries (Taiwan, Tibet) CURRENTLY, in times of PEACE to ask Japan to not turn a blind eye to their own actions.

The thread was started to get people's opinions, and SgtRamrod gave his. Even if you don't agree with it, doesn't mean you should try to make his opinion not valid, it's an opinion. And I also think his point is valid to this discussion.

Bryan

 

Re: Relevance

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Basically, those statistics came from what you heard and remembered. Right. I am surprised because, as you pointed out, China keeps strict controls on its own history. So those numbers, I'm guessing, and if you recalled them correctly, are your Hahvud PHD's guesses.

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Of course the numbers are from Western Sinologists and not the PRC. Would you trust any government to give credible statistics regarding the number of deaths that said government is responsible for?

If you recall, I was not precise in the way that I phrased those statistics. For the Great Leap Forward, death tolls range from 15 to 30 million. For the Cultural Revolution the numbers vary wildly from as little as 1 million up to 10 million. This number may be more deatable, but even the conservative estimate is nothing to take lightly.

You sneeringly refer to academics as though you are somehow more informed on the topic. Are you a historian or Social Scientist of some sort? I am curious. At any rate, there is a distinction between a "guess" and an "estimate." Since the estimates in question seem to provoke you, you fight back by calling them guesses. Silly, that.

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But you know what?

It is STILL irrelevant. How China records its own history does not affect Chinese people's views of how Japan records its own history in relation to China. Hypocritical or not, the point still stands:

If Japan wants to get along with China, it needs to own up on the war atrocities it had perpetuated in China.

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It may be irrelevant to the Chinese and irrelevant to you, but it is not irrelevant to the discussion. I think you meant "perpetrated" by the way.

Try to wrap your mind around this:

China is angry because Japan is whitewashing its past to gloss over shameful episodes. But China whitewashes its history even more absurdly than Japan.

Thus, China is basically saying, "We are angry because you do to a lesser degree what we do a greater degree."

Maybe Japan will need to change their textbooks to appease the angry Chinese. I don't know the strategic angle for Japan. I do know that since the end off World War II, the Chinese gov't has a lot more to answer for than Japan. I am curious why you defend China. Do you have some stake in this that we should know about?

I, for one, am not crazy about the Chinese gov't, as you may have guessed. What they have done to Tibet stands as one of the great human tragedies of the last 60 years. I have met a handful of Chinese who shrug it off saying, "Tibet is Chinese territory," and to them that's that. Same goes for Taiwan.

I lived in Taiwan for a year. The Taiwanese are immeasurably lucky that that the CCP never controlled that island. The misery of life in the PRC was safely across the Taiwan strait for the Taiwanese. I was discussing Taiwan with a Chinese person once who said that Taiwan should have to give all the art and artifacts that the KMT fled with in 1949. He became offended when I pointed out that the reason that Taiwan has a better collection of old Chinese art is because the CCP destroyed most of the old art and relics during the Cultural Revolution. I am good at small talk, eh?

What kind of nation destroys the artifacts of its own people's history?

I have a friend who spent three years in a Chinese prison. He has scars all over his body from where they beat him, shocked him with a cattle prod, etc. He says "Fucking Chinah" a lot.

To sum this up, these Chinese protesters need to get clued in to reality. Yes, the Japanese committed unspeakable atrocities during World War II that ought to be owned up to in every possible way. However, that Japanese government is no longer in power. The Chinese government that did much worse things to the Chinese people is still in power and is, in typical fascist fashion rallying the populace against external enemies- anything to distract the people from what their government has done and is still doing.

 

Re: Relevance

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The Chinese government that did much worse things to the Chinese people is still in power and is, in typical fascist fashion rallying the populace against external enemies- anything to distract the people from what their government has done and is still doing.

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sort of like the behaviour of america in some circumstances.

Now for the jerry springers final word, there is always a big difference between what one SHOULD do, and what one WILL do. Japan should follow germany;s example on ww2 on its atrocities to the chinese people and apologize, seeing how this is a dispute between two distinct communities. However, the chances of this i think are very nil.

On how china should look at its own history and whatnot is a matter totally up to the chinese people, as they were the ones wronged in the past, and should not really be a rally point for other nations to intercede, as this is not an international affair between two countries. As long as china did not go on a rampant genocide of certain people in china, than no one outside of china really has any right to say what china must do for its own people.
However, the cultural revolution at times, did seem like a genocide at times. So as usual in politics, there is no right or wrong answer, just shades of grey.

i personally look at the cultural revolution like a civil war or like the revolution in russia where they killed off all the royals and the aritocracy.

 

China

You are right that America does whitewash its own history, though I would argue not to the degree that China does. At least in America you can march into corporate bookstore and buy Noam Chomsky's latest book if that's your thing, and no one will have you killed.

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As long as china did not go on a rampant genocide of certain people in china, than no one outside of china really has any right to say what china must do for its own people.

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How about Tibet?

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i personally look at the cultural revolution like a civil war or like the revolution in russia where they killed off all the royals and the aritocracy.

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It was a completely different affair than the Russian Revulution. For starters, the conflict was not about revolutionaries sweeping away the feudal/capitalist rulers. It was more about the student movements and other cadres being unleashed on the revolutionaries for not being sufficiently revolutionary or for being too educated or for just for having an unorthodox thought and in some cases just to settle old scores.

I personally think of Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, and Mao's PRC as these three great tragedies where modernity collided with old cultures and centuries of history to produce the most horrific of results.

 

Re: Relevance

I sneer because you borrowed somebody else's authenticity to bolster your own argument, and somehow believed that authenticity was the more valid because it came from a sinologist with a PhD from Harvard. Instead of providing references, you recall from memory. If you're going to present yourself as scholarly, at least present your arguments in a scholarly manner.

I know how "estimates" work, especially when they come from those outside looking in at the black box that is Chinese Communist history. I am familiar with what the CCP has done--you're not the only one to have taken Chinese history in school. Don't get me wrong, I agree Mao Ze Dong has caused his own people to suffer in the past.

That said, how China records its own history HAS NO RELEVANCE to the allegation that Japan whitewashes its war atrocities in China.

Let me provide a little color to your insensitive stance. A friend's great grandmother was a comfort woman in that war. Understandably, he is a little resentful about how Japan has dealt with this issue. Are you telling him that just because the CCP has not recorded China's history accurately, he should be any less angry?? He's not even from the PRC!

Japan's war atrocities are one thing.

CCP's horribly failed economic initiatives and questionable human rights standard are two other things. These can and should be dealt with seperately.

STOP MIXING ISSUES UP. It only shows your naivete, and the fact that you have no understanding of the undercurrents driving this conflict. Leave it alone outsider. I am ethnic Chinese, but even I am only willing to observe.

P.S. Perpetuated: "1. To cause to continue indefinitely; make perpetual.
2. To prolong the existence of; cause to be remembered." The double meaning was fully intended, but apparently you didn't grasp it.

 

Re: Relevance

I'm beginning to see more and more Western people getting involved in this issue even at my school when they have no idea what is going on. This is something that seriously requires one to be Chinese or Japanese to understand what's going on. Living in Japan or China doesn't count, the deep root of this issue can't be told by words.

Even just today people were giving me their views about the situation and giving completely ignorant opinions about the protests. This is not something new or recent, the tension between China and Japan is not just about some text book, there are much much more complicated issues involved. The key reason for Asia's resentment towards Japan is their seemingly unapologetic for their war crimes during the War. It's not about white washing their history, everyone does it. Everyone kills in wars, everyone engages in wars. If it really was about killing people or wars, chinese people would be protesting everyday about US. This is another issue.

The fact that you guys even think the government is flaming these protests just shows that you have no idea what it's like in the minds of the Chinese people. This sentiment is not something instilled by the government, they are sentiments passed down generations after generation by the real victims of the crimes. It's absurd to think that the government played a hand in starting these demonstrations. I won't deny that they are taking a soft stance on the demonstrations simply because this is a national sentiment. You guys really have no business making judgements about how or why the chinese people feel the way they do.

The cultural revolution is not something hidden in chinese textbooks. The accomplishment and wrongdoings of Mao is well documented in textbooks and hundreds of movies and drama portrays the revolution. It's absurd to say we try to hide this past. It was a blessing but also a scar for the chinese. We wouldn't be where we are today without it, yet it came at a great cost. This is something that most westerners simply won't understand unless they are really in touch with chinese culture. Like what Jeff said, what we do to our own people has no relevance in this issue.

It seems that western media suffers from the same fault, the reasons for the protests are simply twisted by their reportings. Reading about this situation in the books simply can't describe the sentiments involved in this issue. The Japanese demanded an apology for the treatment for their people by the US. The Japanese demanded an apology for the kidnappings for their citizens by the North Koreans. They even refuse to change the way they refer to the N. Koreans. What they did to the Chinese people is beyond the scope of the Germans and the Nazi's. How can anyone honestly think an apology is not due?