Punishing evaders and lowpunchers with Aoi?

Discussion in 'Aoi' started by Nybec, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. Nybec

    Nybec Well-Known Member

    Playing Aoi a pretty long time now I've come down to two major problems. How do I stop lowpunchers really good with Aoi? Anyone know interesting technical facts to get the /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif hitthrow and /versus/images/commands/D.gif,/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif hitthrow to go through the opponents /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif.

    And what is the best option to punish evaders? /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif hitthrow and /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif works good for those who attack afterwards without thinking. Delayed /versus/images/commands/b.gif,/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif hitthrow would work but don't give that high payoff.

    Inspire me. Thanks.
  2. MadAoi

    MadAoi Member

    I've been having exactly the same problem with evades and Aoi. /versus/images/commands/b.gif /versus/images/commands/b.gif /versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif is an option with rather nice dmg, but it is not very safe.

    Perhaps the best thing is to delay a throw when you see an evade, making it harder to escape. Much of her game consists of setting throws up anyway.
    /versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/k.gif on reaction when you see a failed evade also gives a nice situation, setting up for low punch punishment or throw (can be fuzzy guarded).
    Anyway, the best way i have found to deal with evades is to learn not to attack all the time, guard and duck instead, this will produce failed evades (but watch out for elbows) that can be punished. Another good option is to dash in (cancel the dash very fast and duck or just guard) and watch for an evade.

    I've may be wrong here, but the low sweep is not a very good option if you think your opponent is going to evade since it gives you disadvantage on normal hit. However, guerilla seem to use this to his advantage by doing back dash to evade after normal hit with the sweep (see the Aoi VS Akira replay in EVO).

    Furthermore, low punchers can be punished by a simple back dash to /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif (dash in and throw, low throw or do the crumple). Setting up low punch by punching or by using elbows is a good idea if your opponent is LP-happy.
  3. kimheng

    kimheng Well-Known Member

    My brother likes to /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif me after my /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/p.gif normal hit because they knows I'm -1 and so his low punch will beat mine->I evade his low punch and low throw him,it works for me

    The option of backdash then /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif or /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif is good,too
    If you anticpates his LP,you can backdash then dash forward and low throw him

    When I have +2(like after a /versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/k.gif hit) ,I try sometimes /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif to beat his low punch

    You can reverse low punch too,lol /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    As for the /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif-/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif, I like when it hits because it leaves my opponent in a face down /feet toward position and if he tries a rising mid kick ,my YY Stance->dodge+/versus/images/commands/p.gif evades his rising attack and crumble him on mc!! /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
  4. Nybec

    Nybec Well-Known Member

    Thanks for spending some time on this guys. Really appreciate it!

    Evading and lowthrowing was interesting and after some tests I see that it work up till disadvantage
    of -3 frames.

    Backdashing to /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif works on bigger disadvantage that /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif. Atleast for me. The lesser the disadvamtage the less possibility for that the opponent would do a /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif. /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif gives some good guaranteed damage when it hits though.

    Dashing out then back in and lowthrow doesn't even work in even situations /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Or perhaps I'm slow?

    After a /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif hit you really should use /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif instead since it's guaranteed if the opponent attacks. /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif is only a setup and on that a crappy one.

    Reverse a low punch? /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif That really doesn't give any good damage at all.

    Nice thing about the YY-evade there! Didn't know that. Tested to see what the damage after a reversal would be and it turns out it's bigger since you have a "guarantead" groundthrow after that specific kickreversal. The YY-evade can setup some mindgames and seems a little bit more safe perhaps. Depending on you opponent.

    /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif and /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif has the same execution frames. The later is high and gives big disadvantage on block and even deadlier if the opponent ducks. Since /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif is medium it can also hit opponents who crouchdashcancel their evade.

    It feels like low sweep isn't such a good move since you don't get any good damage. Ofcourse you could enter YY after it and so on. But I guess it's more to tell the opponent not to evade so much and calm his offensive down.

    The little crouchdash to check if the opponent evades is really a good idea. I think I used it after playing against ManjiMaru alot who evade -> attacked me way to often on the nordic session /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    Don't anyone have more setups like /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif (normal hit) -> lowthrow (when the opponents /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif miss)?
  5. MadAoi

    MadAoi Member

    About dashing back and low throwing: it is all about timing... If you're even or close to even, the timing is tight, but as long as your opponent misses the punch you can throw him, since you can cancel the back dash with low throw anytime during the dash. Right? ^^

    By the way, Lau.VF had some great throw setups, cant remember exactly how he did it, but the result was me evading and him making a long forward chrouch dash and a throw. Gonna check my replays later to see how he did it, maybe you can get an evade in the same way with Aoi. I'll be back later on that one.

    About the /versus/images/commands/p.gif,/versus/images/commands/k.gif: I find it usefull to mix it up after this one. Because of the disadvantage, the opponent have to guess, back dash to low punch punish should be good, also, try and mix in some throws (like a full circle throw or /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif). The throw seem to come out surprisingly fast, which could be used to your advantage perhaps.

    The following seems to work sometimes; as your opponent is about to rise, go into YY stance and then out of it as fast as you can. Some players are aware of that it cannot reverse low stuff so this makes them do a low rising attack, block it and punish (works on Lau.VF sometimes ^^).
  6. Nybec

    Nybec Well-Known Member

    Been playing around and now I tend to evade > lowthrow in a -1 situation (after /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif /versus/images/commands/p.gif hits normal) if suspecting a /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif.

    And when I get into the +2 situation, /versus/images/commands/p.gif /versus/images/commands/k.gif hits, I backdash and then Lowthrow or /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif. If the opponent seems really happy about it he can miss his /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif after blocking "pushy" moves like /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif , /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif and /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif. Then you can lowthrow him. But note that some characters have long and strange /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif.
  7. Crazy_Galaxy

    Crazy_Galaxy Well-Known Member

    Slightly off topic,
    What about in regard to punishing techrollers,
    what do you go for, dash low throw, /versus/images/commands/DF.gif k, or /versus/images/commands/D.gif /versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif ,
    would like to hear some of your tech roll punishers /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif
  8. ZSS

    ZSS Well-Known Member

    I'm not much of an Aoi player, but I'd say punishing TR with a low throw would have a very tight timing. Sometimes I manage to get a high trow, but sweeps sound like a safe bet.
  9. Nybec

    Nybec Well-Known Member

    Tech roll punishers? Well Aoi's combos often floats the opponent with head towards and stomach down. That means you can use the /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif to make a backstagger if they techroll. While backstaggered I often go for /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif /versus/images/commands/p.gif. The first part misses sometimes. And I don't know how easy it is to struggle out of, can't really test it. If someone has other guarantead followup attacks I would be really glad to hear them. Lowthrowing is not that hard when you get the timing down. Just practice. It's a very useful thing to keep up the pressure with.
  10. kimheng

    kimheng Well-Known Member

    For techrollers:

    _I like to use sometimes /versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif cancel to throw
    _Low throw is cool
    _/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif or /versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif or efficient if they try to attack immediately after the TR(I dare to use /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif too)
    _sweep cancels
    /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif~/versus/images/commands/g.gif->/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif or /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif

    Tell me what you think /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
  11. Nybec

    Nybec Well-Known Member

    /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif needs some good timing so that they will feel pressured the second time you do it (setting up a two choise situation) and it's a unstable combostarter since sometimes you can't combo at all. I usually go for /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif if I think they will attack. Good damage (in Aoi terms) and pushes the opponent far away.

    Actually I use /versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif and /versus/images/commands/b.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif more as a setup for /versus/images/commands/d.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif/versus/images/commands/f.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif. Sweep cancels are nice. Some people gets confused that you actually canceled a lowsweep and will then attack. Another situation I use this is when doing a /versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/p.gif/versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif(/versus/images/commands/g.gif) > /versus/images/commands/D.gif/versus/images/commands/df.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif hitthrow. But attacking with /versus/images/commands/d.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif+/versus/images/commands/g.gif or /versus/images/commands/f.gif+/versus/images/commands/p.gif+/versus/images/commands/k.gif after is kinda risky. To be used on defensive characters only because a quick attack will easily interupt the whole thing.
  12. kimheng

    kimheng Well-Known Member

    The tactics I mentionnend were for okizeme ,if they techroll /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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