Q about Japanese high level play?

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by Mizkreant, Apr 24, 2002.

  1. Mizkreant

    Mizkreant Well-Known Member

    One thing I've noticed from watching the various Japanese videos (Daioh, Pyrexia, etc.) is that Japanese players almost NEVER throw after blocking a guaranteed throw move. Most of the time they'll do a low move such as a sweep. I realize they're wary of the throw being broken, but that doesn't explain why they NEVER seem to throw. Can anyone shed some light on this?
     
  2. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    B/c throws can be escaped... which means not guaranteed. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Other attacks cannot.
     
  3. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    u get a bit of damage if u use a attack and u get to follow up. If u try to throw, chances are ur throw gets escaped, and you wasted a chance and might put urself in disadvantage /versus/images/icons/frown.gif

    They usually use low sweep becos most pple guard high instead of low after pressing throw escapes.
     
  4. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Are you sure? Usually, a guaranteed attack is better than a guaranteed throw opportunity (depending on damage of attack and recovery of course), but I think your assessment about using low attacks instead is exaggerated.
     
  5. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    ...but I think your assessment about using low attacks instead is exaggerated.

    Yeah...I don't remember seeing lots of low attacks in those clips, they use mainly mids OR throws after a throw counterable situation.
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I was noticing that chibita's kage would very often use PPhelix rather than throw after blocking moves that were P/throw counterable. Guaranteed damage is definitely the smart option. Maybe japanese players are THAT good at intelligently using double throw escapes. It makes going for throws seem futile.

    I have noticed the same thing though, a lot of times someone will block akira's dbpm or something, and not go for the throw, rather they will gamble with something not-guaranteed like a knee, or a sweep, hoping to interrupt someone entering throw escapes no doubt. A sweep isn't a bad gamble - it'll beat standing guard, dodges, or throw escapes. The opponent must pretty much resign themselves to blocking low to avoid eating the sweep, and if they start doing that, they're open to a lot of useful mid attacks the next time their attack is blocked.
     
  7. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I was noticing that chibita's kage would very often use PPhelix rather than throw after blocking moves that were P/throw counterable. Guaranteed damage is definitely the smart option. Maybe japanese players are THAT good at intelligently using double throw escapes. It makes going for throws seem futile.

    I have noticed the same thing though, a lot of times someone will block akira's dbpm or something, and not go for the throw, rather they will gamble with something not-guaranteed like a knee, or a sweep, hoping to interrupt someone entering throw escapes no doubt. A sweep isn't a bad gamble - it'll beat standing guard, dodges, most reversals, or throw escapes. The opponent must pretty much resign themselves to blocking low to avoid eating the sweep, and if they start doing that, they're open to a lot of useful mid attacks the next time their attack is blocked.
     
  8. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    I have noticed the same thing though, a lot of times someone will block akira's dbpm or something, and not go for the throw, rather they will gamble with something not-guaranteed like a knee, or a sweep, hoping to interrupt someone entering throw escapes no doubt. A sweep isn't a bad gamble - it'll beat standing guard, dodges, or throw escapes. The opponent must pretty much resign themselves to blocking low to avoid eating the sweep, and if they start doing that, they're open to a lot of useful mid attacks the next time their attack is blocked.

    Tangentially related to this... something that is interesting about DTEG is that depending on the order of command throw escapes, you can end up blocking either low or high. After you use a throw counterable move that is blocked by the opponent...

    (a) df+P+G f+P+G release P will allow you to escape throws in two directions as well as block high/mid moves (assuming your throw-counterable move is not also P-counterable), but leaves you susceptible to low attacks
    (b) f+P+G df+P+G release P will allow you to escape throws in two directions and block low kicks, sweeps, etc. (autoduck mechanism), but you'll get tagged by elbows and other mid-level moves (because the game engine registers you as crouching for just a split second while entering df+P+G)
     
  9. capercat

    capercat Well-Known Member

    interesting ...
    this may sound clueless but what if you entered just the single throw escape - d/f+P+G, hold G - at the same time you would enter the first in the examples you gave. would this also block low, as it is the last thing entered?

    what i'm asking if it is the fact that the second escape is done later than the first, or simply the last command entered, that accounts for this.
     
  10. feixaq

    feixaq Well-Known Member

    Unsure, but I think it's the last thing entered.
     
  11. Mizkreant

    Mizkreant Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Maybe japanese players are THAT good at intelligently using double throw escapes. It makes going for throws seem futile.

    <hr></blockquote>
    They can't possibly escape all throws all of the time. Throws must be feasible at least once in a while. I realize that if a move is throw counterable but also counterable by other moves that it's smarter to go for the guaranteed damage, but I'm thinking more about moves that are barely throw counterable and not punch counterable (like -7 to -10 disadvantage).

    I distinctly remember a match where a Vanessa player blocked a high rising kick (from Wolf I think) and then countered with a d+K+G from DS. In this case the sweep will not knock down, and if it hits still puts Vanessa at a -6 disadvantage. I don't see the point, unless Wolf had so little life left he would be KO'd by the sweep, but I don't believe that was the case in this match.
     
  12. alucard

    alucard Well-Known Member

    They can't possibly escape all throws all of the time. Throws must be feasible at least once in a while. I realize that if a move is throw counterable but also counterable by other moves that it's smarter to go for the guaranteed damage, but I'm thinking more about moves that are barely throw counterable and not punch counterable (like -7 to -10 disadvantage).

    Precisely. Thats why you still see people get thrown, even in those "Japanese high level play" clips.

    I distinctly remember a match where a Vanessa player blocked a high rising kick (from Wolf I think) and then countered with a d+K+G from DS. In this case the sweep will not knock down, and if it hits still puts Vanessa at a -6 disadvantage. I don't see the point, unless Wolf had so little life left he would be KO'd by the sweep, but I don't believe that was the case in this match.

    Erm...the thing is, which rising kick was used and was the rising kick delayed? Most non-delayed rising kicks are not counterable at all, the Vanessa player would be taking a risk if he/she tried to throw the Wolf player.
     
  13. J_Chuang

    J_Chuang Well-Known Member

    Sounds like the sweep is aiming for a ETG, in that case the sweep will get a counter hit. It wouldn't hurt Van too much too if the oppt is just standing around.
     
  14. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Throwing escapes isn't always as easy as it seems, but it IS possible. You don't see too many Jacky's throwing all the time, unless the oponent isn't all that, as they've got the knee of doom.

    As for Vanessa, each attack is pretty damn powerful, so even if you get two hits in, you've done at least SOME damage.

    A good rule of thumb, especially against the CPU -- mix your throws up, especially if you've got multiple low-throws (Wolf comes to mind). Very helpful.
     

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