Question on some Shun's moves.

Well I'd like to get some feedbacks from good Shun's player out there about several moves that I list on the following:

1. db+P+K - I still don't know what sort of situation this moves will ever connect against good players. It looks nice and to my knowledge(I could be wrong) it doesn't have sabaki and dodge properties.

2. d+P+K+G or u+P+K+G. Though this move dodges some attacks and it even dodges nicely on very close range attacks, it is far too slow to do other followups.

3. [BT] P+K+G, P, P. I have to admit, I like this move when the last P connect as auto throw, It looks really cool. Love to do it on newbies. Again this move is too slow and can be easily anticipated.

4. f,f+P+K. I only use this as long range surprise attack. Decent damage but the recovery is horrible and you're screwed if this move is blocked.

5. b,df+P+G. I rarely use this throw. Anyone can recommend best followups ? I tried QCF+P but it didn't connect, either the distance is too far or opponent manages to recover before QCF+P hits.

 

I am no Shun professional, but here are some of my thoughts about your question.

1)db+P+K: I found it only looks cool. I can manage to make it sometimes effective if I constantly attack and then do this. It's a move not seen to often around here so people don't expect it.
2) d+P+K+G: Great move. As for followups, none that I can think of unless you get a wall hit out of it-- then
db+P, K or 3 sweeps.
3) (BT) P+K+G,P,P...: Very cool looking. A lot of times I will try for the hellofit. People usually go for throw afterwards, which if your expecting you can usually get out of. Sometimes I will do something like (BT) P+K+G, P, P+K+G, P+K+G, d+K,. Maybe throw in an occasional (BT) P+G throw in case I think it may hit. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
4) f,f+P+K: I don't really use even in surprise cases because I don't like the idea of losing Drunk Points ( -1 I think) and if they block--your screwed. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
5) b,df+P+G: you should be able to get a chouwan ( I think). If not, try df+P,P,K or b,df+P or db+P,K. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Hope any ot that helps. If not, sorry-- I am not a Shun pro.
Later

 

5) is just a throw it gives you nothing after it. Its just a very bad throw

 

I concur with you on your comments. I *WAS* 4-dan at the arcades, which is actually quite a feat. Now I'm 3-dan (actually was knocked all the way down to Shodan after Version C came out). He's got some REALLY weird moves... they're nice to use every now & again, but you can screw yourself if you're not careful. The throw you mentioned especially I don't like -- hard to pull off, and you don't get any drinks out of it.

 

I will check if chouwan can actually connect after b,df+P+G in regards to akira2001's comment.
If it is, then it will be a better asset than df+P+G since it has the same escape throw command, and it actually does some damage where df+P+G doesn't. Besides, it isn't really too hard to pull off b,df+P+G.

Although, based on SummErs' escape flowchart, escaping b,df+P+G means giving Nitaku to the escapee, where df+P+G puts both in even position. Well I guess those are the trade offs between the two throws. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

that chart is crap dont use it. you cant get the upper after b,df+p+g because Shun takes too long to recover

 

d+P+K+G: Great move. As for followups, none that I can think of unless you get a wall hit out of it-- then
db+P, K or 3 sweeps.

Do tell why this is a great move. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I've been experimenting with this move for quite sometime but alas, I couldn't find an appropriate situation where this move can be applied.
What happened to me was I got hit during turning back animation where normal dodge or dodge-swipe will easily evade the attack. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif



(BT) P+K+G,P,P...: Very cool looking. A lot of times I will try for the hellofit. People usually go for throw afterwards, which if your expecting you can usually get out of. Sometimes I will do something like (BT) P+K+G, P, P+K+G, P+K+G, d+K,. Maybe throw in an occasional (BT) P+G throw in case I think it may hit.

Just sharing my experience, I tried to mix up (BT) P+K+G, P, P+K+G, P, then or [BT]P+G. I failed because these moves are too slow, giving enough time for opponent to anticipate usually low punch or maybe elbow is enough to interrupt these set of moves.

 

that chart is crap dont use it. you cant get the upper after b,df+p+g because Shun takes too long to recover

As I suspected, thanks for the confirmation. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Actually, I don't know about that. The b,d/f+P+G gives Shun the same frame advantage as his d/f+P+G, +13 frames. Also, I have always gotten the chouwan to hit after b,d/f+P+G in versus play. Testing it out on the Free Training Mode, setting the CPU on All Guard, I combo the chouwan every time. So I do think it's guaranteed, and not a useless throw at all.

The only thing that makes me hesitate is why we don't see Shun players using it more in clips. A Version C change perhaps?

 

I will test it out. I was wondering why they neutered the damage on that throw maybe this explains it.

 

The only thing that makes me hesitate is why we don't see Shun players using it more in clips. A Version C change perhaps?

That's a good question. Would the nitaku vs even position when this throw being escaped be a factor of the reason ?
Sometimes every little things like this takes into account and that is something some player can not afford to do against good players ? Just a thought /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

That could be a reason, but I doubt it's the primary one. Making the chouwan combo-able off the b,d/f+P+G is HUGE...think about it. When Shun is crouching, it's quite difficult to buffer a forward dash and then d/f+P+G and most players end up attempting P+G or b+P+G (or 270b with 10+ DP). b,d/f+P+G solves that problem, and gives even more damage than d/f+P+G.

 

That may very well be it. Is the desire for an extra, what, 20 points of damage worth possibly eating a MC float after the throw escape or getting thrown?

 

10 points, unfortunately. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

b,d/f+P+G.........eye candy, anyone? /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

In regards to my replying that D+P+K+G is a great attack, I think ANY dodge-attack is a great move. I like the idea of being able to avoid an attack while attacking. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif That's all I ment. It comes in handy when your "under the gun". But, no it doesn't have any really good followups. But, that does not make it a bad move, IMO.

About the (BT) P+K+G, P,P... I don't usually try this against the CPU and usually only against people who am comfortable fighting. But, it is fun to throw it in the mix. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

1. Don't bother with this move. It is supposed to be a sabaki move in Ver. C, but doesn't work too well.

2. Those moves dodge even better in ver.c. Mix d+P+K+G,P with d+P+K+G,P,P. d+P+K+G,P works like an elbow, it will stagger a crouching opponent and you can continue to P for a KD or throw him. Even if the opponent guards the elbow, you have a good chance to throw him as he may expect the second P and stand guarding. d+P+K+G into back-turned throw(P+G) is also a good option if you managed to dodge a move with long delay.

5. Chouwan will ALWAYS connect after b,df+P+G, thus you can use the same chouwan combos. Add to this that the throw itself does 20 pts(?) damage so why not use it???
One more great thing about this throw is that you will change side even if the opponent escapes the throw, in contrast to df+P+G. So when you are on the edge of the ring, always go for this throw instead of df+P+G which will cause ring out if the opponent escapes.
One thing to remember is that you need 5 DPs in order to connect the throw.

 

1. Don't bother with this move. It is supposed to be a sabaki move in Ver. C, but doesn't work too well.

Cool! I didn't know this. What attacks is it supposed to sabaki?

P.S. Nice to see you posting again KNK, I remembered you had contributed some really useful Shun stuff earlier on.

 

LF.

I always double check to see if there are any errors before I give myke whatever info I translated.

In this case, I read two different books before I translated the throw escape chart.

If anyone has any questions on the chart..or whatever documents that are on this board, ask and I'm sure myself and other authors will appreciate the feedback.

What myself and other authors(players) DO NOT appreciate is players like you not being capable of stringing the move together (for some unknown reasons/not that I blame u, I can can pull of SPOD n DLC damn well...but for the love of my life, can never do Fujin) and then start screaming about how crap the document is.

Think you can pull out a better one?

Then do it.

FWIW, I'm actually reading a third mook right now, hoping I can find new info to update the throw escape chart.

 

I think he may have been a little strong in his wording, but the sentiment is based off of extensive tests that he, I and Sausageman have done on the TE chart. Basically, it comes down to there are absolutely no guaranteed side throws/back throws/front throws from escaping any of the high/low throws. You can always punch your way out of it. Every throw escape that lists an 8 frame gap or higher leaves you just out of throw range (even while holding F). While there are a number of guaranteed punch opportunities listed and they are correct, in all the tests we did, every throw escape failed to yield a guaranteed retalitatory throw. Granted if the opponent tries to stuff the throw, they'll pretty much always eat a MC from any strike, but throws are out.

All tests were done with Wolf being the escapee, trying both normal side throw and command side throw. Pai and Sarah were tested against the most to confirm, as they either had lots of listed disadvantages (Pai) or had the throws that were blatantly obvious to try (P+G and b,f+P+G).