Raging Debate over at TZ....

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ancientwarrior, Apr 9, 2002.

  1. ancientwarrior

    ancientwarrior New Member

  2. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    <font color=white>Here's the original post by Kamhoux</font color=white> :

    "For awhile now, I've noticed quite a few people around downplaying Tekken 4 with a few complaints. "It's masher friendly; It takes no skill; doesn't have as much depth as VF4". I've one very serious question, without bias. How many players with these complaints have played Tekken 4 as extensively as VF4. I for one, have as I have both games for PS2 as well as have studied both of the series incarnations in the arcade for all sequels.
    Granted, both games have been on the "equal" standpoint for awhile, VF was always famous for being more of a sim while Tekken was always famous for being more action based. However, recently examined BOTH games extensively and have drawn out all of the aspects that each game possesses. Be it combo concepts, character appeal, story, variation of gameplay style etc. And in this yearly (and I mean YEARLY) long analysis I've come to realize something. Let me explain.

    Virtua Fighter for one thing (let's be honest people) has always been extremely masher friendly. The reason for this is that VF has always relied on combos for their characters gameplay (most of them, not all...don't jump to conclusions and let me finish). This is caused by its control setup; punch, kick, guard. To compensate for its simple button mapping, all types of punches and kicks derive from this scheme when pressed more than once. The flip side to this is that when more moves are required, more complicated button pressed are needed (i.e. b+G+K, K, dwn+K to perform Lei Fei double flicker round house then sweep manuever). Since the more the moves the chara possesses, the more variations of combinations of the three button taps are required, hence why most people believe VF possesses a "Large array a moves", which if studied carefully is relatively untrue. In fact, both games have the exact same amount of moves when compared. If you need proof, go to your Japanese bookstore and pick up a VF fighting guide and a Tekken fighting guide then compare the two. You'll find yourself very surprised as I was. VF's strength is in combo variations, not movement abundance.
    Now, while VF has refined it's gameplay over the years with more complicated attacks and introduced full on reversals and chain grabs into the arsenal, but still has always relied on combo strings for their charas (even the wrestlers possess combo strings though they are primarily grapplers, not strikers). Again, this causes the game to remain very masher friendly. Now while any hardcore fighting gamer will be able to mop the floor with a masher, this still does not deny the fact that the game's weakness. Also, VF4's major flaws still are lack of TRUE 3D gameplay. The circular movements within the stages are practically useless unless the particular attack that the chara is performing happens to be a sidestepping one. It's still very linear in nature (watch two experts of VF play. The only time that the SS is used is when the two are circling one another before their fighting advancement). Again, VF's strengths lie in combo string variation and speed. Another weakness that the game has always had (this plays into a broader audience) is lack of character appeal. VF is popular with having very dull characters (Lei Fei and Vanessa Lewis have just recently become the ONLY exceptions), lack of any real relevant story and varied options for home conversions. However, the A.I. mode for the home version is a really strong additive, but if most players don't engage in this particular title, in the end it proves fruitless. Its one biggest strength did lie in VF3's environments. While not interactive, they were a strong additive of strategy through placement, distance, timing and positioning. Now that they've reverted back to VF2's formula, it's become basic and unfortunately very very plain.

    Now, on the opposite side lies Tekken. The biggest misconception that I've seen with this title has been that it was masher friendly....which as a whole is entirely untrue. There have been only 3 characters in the game's history that have been even remotely masher friendly: Marshal Law (tekken 2 ver.), Baek Doosan and Eddy Gordo (and entry level character). These few have been the only ones that have been even close to being masher friendly, and like Virtua Fighter (if an expert is playing, again, will mop the floor with them), I've studied it just as closely.
    Tekken's biggest draws have been a few things: Appealing characters, character variations, large variety of fighting concepts (i.e. Lei vs. Paul, Xiaoyu vs. Nina), depth of story (especially with part 4) and excellent home conversions. Character stances are completely varied and only 2-3 are similar to one another (Lei to Law, Jin to Christie etc.).
    The gameplay concepts lie in several things: fluid taps (look in the fighting guide. This difference between RP, LP vs. RP~LP. Based on speed of execution rather than preset chaining), Negative Edge Buffering (VF contains buffering as well, but it relies more on the delay of movement rather than blending of two separate actions. Take for instace how to jump in VF4 as an example), delay of attacks (not based on preset commands like Lau, Pai and Jacky's P,P, Dwn+K+G), using Nuetral before attacking (most of Lei Wulong's movements require this) and playing classic fighting game tactics like "poking" (remember Street Fighter tactics to recap). Now, with Tekken 4, the characters have become even more varied, the gameplay has been tightened to become faster than part 3's and true environment interaction that requires heavy amounts of strategy per player and per character (Xiaoyu and Lei are strong in open areas yet weak in conjested environments) and the element of being trapped in the corner has returned (compelmented by off-wall jumping and position shifting).
    However, just like its competition, Tekken has its share of flaws as well. For one thing, certain charas are just plain stupid (Roger/Alex, Gon, Boskonovitch and all of the Jacks), the arcade version of Tekken Tag's existance (man, did that ver. suck!!) and poor collision detection (although VF4 has also revealed poor collision on many instances as well).
    Since Tekken contains 4 buttons and reverse as guard, it's movements are better spread out enabling more ease of movement and more importantly, heavy reflex value (again, take Lei Fei double round-house to Lee Chaolan's. Same move, but one is easier because of a different sense of execution). So, as a result, Tekken has the advantage of being able to openly express its attacks across a wider sprectrum rather than being compressed to one button (compare all of Lau's punches done with both Kick and Guard and all of Jin's punches done with Left Punch and/or Right Punch). Also, with this, Tekken seems to lie more in the logical sense rather than waiting for another attack to arrive from a preset chain (P,P= left then right punch vs. LP, RP= Left punch, right punch~ both are the classic one two of fighting).

    The truth is, while both games have been on equal terms for quite awhile with opposite expressions, VF4 via Yu Suzuki's request has become more linear and easy to play (c'mon, what's with Vanessa and Jacky's auto parry for punches)to appeal to the masses, involved two new characters for better appeal (the Shaolin Monk was an ingenius idea, Yu!!) and reverted back to the simplified VF2 formula, while Tekken on the other hand has now involved environmental fighting (y'know, the kind where you feel exactly where your fighting through close quarters, obstacles/obstructions and change of ground mass [moving slower in water than on gravel], something DOA2&3 failed at miserably), a more serious no-nonsense attitude toward its characters (bye Jack, Roger), a strong and relevant storyline throughout *finally in a fighting game* and heavily varied gameplay (no two charas EVER control in exactly the same manner within Tekken 1,2,3 & 4, VF's number 1 weakness). And this doesn't even involve home conversions (need we got there?).

    In the end, out of both only one has evolved truly, without bias or illogical fanbase (truthfully, you guys only hate just to hate and cannot break down real elements without bias).....Tekken 4. If you want proof, attempt to play Tekken 4 exactly like its past incarnations in the arcade against a hardcore player. I guarantee you'll lose quickly through lack of evolution. VF4 doesn't have this advantage...... anyone can play Lau in part 4 just like part 2....and so can Sarah, Jacky, Akira, Pai, Wolf and Jeffry)."

  3. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Well, at least he tried... But honestly, this type of debate, including this player himself, is always gonna boil down to the lack of knowledge of one game vs. more time spent on the other.

    I still play Tekken 4, but constantly get bored with it and fight it way slower than Tekken Tag. But then again, I've only played the game in Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver BC. The mindgames I've witnessed have all been very limited and it was within 15 minutes I generally know what an opponent is going to do--or more like forced to do. But you see, I'll admit I'm only limited to those I've played. I don't claim everyone of them to be an expert.

    However, this guy constantly goes on to fact to fact basis, but the only thing that seems to be understood of VF4 by him is the presentation aspects confined in "console features."

    He sticks his head in further by making it sound like Tekken has no record of character imbalances, but says that character imbalance has always been VF's #1 problem. Oddly enough, majority of Tekken posts I run into on ANY forum (including Zaibatsu) seems to at least state that Tekken has always had character balancing issues unless you favored one of the characters that were in the top tier.

    And then there's the mashing issue.... Typical fanboys on either end will claim the other to have a lot of mashing crap. I think both VF AND Tekken have proven that there's a level to which mashing cannot touch, and that it's not that far above. Meaning, it's easy to beat out mashers in either series. I find it incredibly easy in VF, but you have to understand defense. In Tekken, I usually just outprioritize the masher. This is not the only way, but maybe this is where the argument even comes from in the first place... In VF, you might have some guy constantly defending when he's playing Tekken, which isn't too bad to begin with... but when you have a Tekken player jumping into VF, a lot of them try to poke their way out of a mash situation--or you have the one that knows how to throw and tries to throw a masher (which just isn't going to happen in the heat of exchanges against someone mashing--you have to throw counter most of the time against a "masher"). IMO, Mashers are way easily handled in either games--I haven't seen anything to really prove me wrong in it... just that my general approach to each game is different.

    I'm even wondering if this guy has seen somebody stance switch with Lei Fei (or even Shun for that matter). He sounds completely oblivious to the way stances are implemented in VF4. For the most part, there's a bit of Tekken style stance switch here (coming out of moves) and quite a bit of Soul Calibur style stance switching there (probably the main change to how stances are handled in VF4 come from Soul Calibur--switches that are a mix of direct input, and switches coming from moves through buffering).

    I've already posted a good amount, but I could probably go on and on if I wanted to pick on that guy's first post.... But again, it would go back to what I was saying in the first place. If we argued, it would turn into him defending Tekken 4 because he seems to know that game better (though I honestly have my doubts on it, some of his T4 arguments have been quite limited or lacking certain knowledge), and myself defending VF + VF4 (he's been attacking the whole series and very little VF4 actually) because I know that series better.... and we get this attacking for what we don't know, and defending for what we do know... the debate would get rather pathetic quickly.


    Note: what's really sad is this guy passing his arguments off as "fact." If so, he's missing out on a lot of "facts."
  4. CrYingCHoCoBo

    CrYingCHoCoBo Well-Known Member

    ...some of what you said is good, but others, are very very meaningless. First, i have been a tekken player since tekken 2, and some of my best friends as of 6 years i've met because of tekken, i've only played vf4 for a month now, but i used to play it very often on sega saturn (vf2)

    where do you come off saying that some characters in tekken are just stupid? if you've been around you'll realize that all of the characters in tekken have huge strengths and weaknesses, jacks are VERY popular, it trains the player how to ignore speed, and concentrate on blocking skills, then attack by huge damage, and throws. roger/alex, are a bit different, but don't just approach them thinking you can just kick them down...roger has a punch rush combo that will knock half ur life away if it's on a counterhit, and a high punch that if blocked, allows him stun time to hit you with his most powerful punch attack (thundergodfist), he also has an ample supply of juggles and throw variations. learning him is NOT a waste of time.

    as for gon, bosconovitch, they were only secret characters, for FUN, weren't meant to be taken seriously, but even still, these characters have surprisingly good strengths, however, usually if you win with them, ur opponenet will end up calling you cheap.

    now, to more important things, the ss is not useless, you NEED it, in order to avoid being trapped against a wall, or a corner, evasion attacks are very much used in high level play, all you have to do is watch the replay matches on the disc!

    ss are used exactly the same as in tekken, neither game uses them more. if a character in tekken uses a lot of ss's its prolly cause they have a ss move they like, (paul ss, 4, michelle (ss,1/ss+2 variations and mixups)

    one thing i have noticed with vf4 is that the characters seem more loose, to free and open movement with their moves, lion is a great example, watch his legs in a match, or during his moves, they twist, he crosses them while jumping or hopping, turns waist, backwards attacks...very realistic. I should note that the reason Tekken is as popular as it is, is because it mixes juuuust enuf 'realistic' things with toooons and tons of unrealistic things, uppercuts, knocking ur opponent past the top of the screen, then juggle the crap outta them, just frame unblockable attacks (t4), vf4 juggles, but it's very light, the character doesn't fly up into the air with one uppercut, they are usually knocked off their feet, and are hit until they touch the ground,and then some after that if you don't tech properly

    TEKKEN is the linear one...it's ALWAYS been linear, with it's attacks, that's why it's only recently with t4, that we've got full range of motion abilities, perhaps it's faster than vf4's but it doesn't matter since the only time a ss is useful is if ur enemy is attacking, or you want to use a ss attack. you can't outrun ur enemy by walking back and to the side, so it's really not that necessary, the only game it was extremely useful in so far as i've seen is soul calibur, you can dash in, then out, run to the side, run up from the side, it's so free it's disgusting, however, it's not cheap, as a well timed horizontal attack will end that for the moment.

    next, character appeal...i wouldn't call it that, the thing that draws people to tekken is much more than that, i'll explain, it's a game where if you like to win using whatever character, you just LOOOVE to win, you can do that, and pull of wins very easily...however, if you like to work harder, and look more stylish doing it, there are characters for that, but beware, you'll DEFINITELY work harder, that's why people love tekken, stylish vs. to the point killing.

    next, you made a horrible mistake in thinking that t4 even comes anywhere close to having the popularity that it's father TTT, on arcade or console did, TTT was by far the best tekken in the series, besides BRINGING lots of fans TO tekken, it kept old fans...t4, got rid of lots of poeple, and won some people, most t4 players will admit that namco messed up, and did a very sloppy job on t4 with walls and full motion, it threw the characters totally off balance, as if they already weren't teetering on the edge of doing this.

    now, only a certain stage can be selected in tournaments because it has even walls, the arena, pick a closer stage or one without walls, and characters will loose strenths or gain weaknesses, try playing a paul player as ling, in the Fight club stage, you'll get deathfisted until you cant breath (one deathfist will splatter you against the wall, and invite another free one, then major okizeme) , and then you'll get hammerfisted in the corner until you die. Take walls away from a character like christie who has very damaging wall mixups, and she'll loose intimidation.
    tekken4 is a horrible game, the only thing that's holdig it together is it's name, and the love of the fans who refuse to let it down so easily....why's it horrible, what vf4 expert can secure his 2nd place position in the nationals by doing one move, Dakong did, he did the just frame lazer scraper over and over and over and over, nothing else, ABSOLUTELY nothing else, let me explain why this move is so evil, it's three punches, counterhit? stun (hold foward to get out), the last hit can be charged to unblockable, but it's more than enuf time to hit them out of it, or ss...just frame means that you have to hit the button precisly within a certain amount of frames (the number is very small so only experts can pull it off), so, if you do the jf variation of the last hit, it's now, and instant unblockable, and no you can't evade in the middle of the punch combo, the punches are too close together, picture using this several diff ways, with, without delays, with without jf, ur opponent has to guess if he has enuf time to ss or not...and if they guess wrong, there goes 40% of their life on juggle damage, which isn't bad, but isn't good, either since most jin players fall back on jfls the minute they start loosing...i could go on and on about kazuyas high damage juggles 60% for idiots that love to juggle, or pauls deathfist mixup with jf falling leaf, steve's quick jab cheapness...btw, these are all moves that are abuseable, but if you use too much (not including jin's and pauls, or kazuya, only steve...jin has something else called 2,1 mixups that poeple hate for others to abuse), but if you abuse them, people usually look down on u or talk about u for it, but you still get the win, like redfoot once said, he met this guy that played jin and did 2,1 2,1 all day, so he used steves 1,2,1...and the guy called HIM cheap, funny, yeah, but see how poeple play? cheap against even more cheap.

    vf4, has characters that are easy to play, but are hard to fight against (lau)...but not as many as tekken, also, you still have to work for ur win as much as ur opponent because usually one mistake can lead to taking damage, and it may not be 60%, but every little bit counts in vf.

    so, my vote for best goes to vf, i mean, the skill that each set of experts from eithr vf or tekken goes to, is equal, you still need mixups, pressure, annoyance tactics,...but, vf is craploads more balanced than tekken when it comes to character strengths. and that's what matters, unless we resort to everyone playing jin, paul, kazuya, or steve (the fantastic 4)

    oh yeah, another thing with tekken, crouch punches have lost their priority, so you need another way to stop cheap assults, hehe...

    now, one thing that is very good, is that tekken has reversal reversals, or chicken, if someone relentlessly reverses you, you can do somethinga bout it...vf doesn't have it, BUT the frame for reversals are so small, that you cant waste more than a couple of seconds trying to reverse before you get hit in the face too much. so, reversals are good, but they aren't THAT good, which was doa's main problem, TOO abuseable.

    uhm, what else...oh yeah, HA, more serious, no nonsense characters...well, im asuming u think panda and combot are useless? ha! well, combot is, but panda, still isn't real, and even SHE'S got a just frame, it's an 80% damage combo inescapeable...so there!, oh yeah, it's only 2 hits.

    oh yeah, and namco gave up on storyline years ago, basically, the story line now is just to bring back popular characters, everything else, they leave blank...julia's story was awful, as was panda's...kazuya, being brought back to life (yeah, cause namco wanted it's fans back), lee hiding out as violet (oh yeah, we don't know it's you lee, that purple wig and purple sunglasses really works on you!), no explanation of unknown, what happened to the jacks, and all the others...btw, namco lost a lot of jack fans...and even i was hella ticked off.

    ...hmm, i think that's enuf for now...
  5. CrYingCHoCoBo

    CrYingCHoCoBo Well-Known Member

    trust me, this guy doesn't know his tekken, he made too many mistakes...and if he posted this on tz, he prolly got flamed for it...even if he IS for t4, he's got the wrong reasons.
  6. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    VF4 is the best designed fighting engine to date, IMO.

    T4 has some one-ups on VF though ( I'll try to keep this as axioms and not opinions ) :
    - Okizeme. Much deeper range of options.
    - Individual control over each limb.
    - Evolved storyline compared to VF ( although I dont give a shit about storylines myself ).
    - Faster.
    - Easier 3D movement.
  7. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    true. the strange thing is that he called vf4 more of a masher game. when we talk about the guy called a masher, we're assuming the role of an 8-yr old child who just palms the buttons and rotates the joystick like crazy...trust me when i say you try this with vf4, you'll only get decent stuff with maybe 2-3 people. try this with tekken and maybe 6-7, i dunno. i believe he probably knows nothing about doing akira's 3-hit strings. and correct me if i'm wrong, but even with tekken's sidestepping stuff, korean stepping all over the place isn't effective; i've never heard of someone KSing for about 90% of the game; usually it's stuck in here and there for positioning.

    do you speak japanese, CrYingCHoCoBo? you should post your reply into the TZ forums(or have someone do it for you); you posted a very nice post, and you do have the knowledge of tekken to back you up.
  8. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    oops; what the heck was i thinking? TZ isn't japanese; my bad /versus/images/icons/wink.gif still, you should send your post over
  9. Kale

    Kale Active Member

    I'm originally from the TZ and still post there., from what I"ve seen here, you guys would shread that guy to pieces.
  10. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I read on further.... and as I read, it was funny showing how this guy knows less and less about Tekken (in addition to what he doesn't know about VF)... and then watching him eventually snap was hilarious!

    And let's not forget how he wants to be a game designer and gets a bit too hung up on interface over function.... quantiy of interface anyways...

  11. Marginal

    Marginal Well-Known Member

    Best yet, in another thread Kamhoux asks what a just frame is...

  12. Kale

    Kale Active Member

    oh that is just great. That guy makes himself look stupid while he thinks he is making himself look intelligent.
  13. CrYingCHoCoBo

    CrYingCHoCoBo Well-Known Member

    individual control over each limb doens't mean anything, it's just 2 more buttons to push, nothing special....i used to think that because vf and other games like it had less buttons, they were easier, and less technical, but vf incorporates g button with attacks, so it's only 1 less button, and anyways, he was right when he said the amount of moves is completely the same, and who cares....kazuya has only a handful of useful moves, doesn't make any difference if you can decide to use the left or right leg, you still have to effective HIT the opponenet.

    and about talking in TZ about that, i haven't browsed ALL sections of this forum index, but in TZ vf vs tekken threads or discussions seem to annoy most of the members because they have more 'new fresh hotheads' that just love to run certain topics into the ground...trying to defend tekken (very weakly),...the poeple over there (if they haven't played vf enuf) think tekken is better for the most part, but they are sick of hearing debates about it...i went searching for threads in the chit chat cafe, and had to go back about 18 pages in the archives...so, i would imagine that for the most part these discussions lost their flavor a long time ago, so, if you do bring it up, they'll prolly lightly flame you to stop; saying they've heard it all b4, combined with reasons they wont stop playing tekken for v4.

    ss, have been toned down in t4, in ttt they were used all the time hoping ur opponent would miss and whiff, allowing you to attack or it's just a tactic called jinking, meaning using quick sudden movements (like that of a masher) to make ur opponent nervous, and keep guessing to what attack is coming next.
  14. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    Not saying Tekken fully exploited individual limb control, but the idea is there to be refined. Having individual limb buttons (i.e. lp,rp,lk,rk ) and a guard button would allow for an even wider array of moves and flexibility to VF's already great arsenal. As it is every game has "automatic" moves in which the rapid succession of tapping the same button allows for variations on the same move ( i.e. Px sequences ; Wolf [PPP] -> jab, straight, uppercut ).
    Say in Px sequences, a char. will start out with example a left, right, left by pressing the same button. Now I dont think we could get rid of automatic combos, but allowing for variation would add to depth : instead of pressing the same button thrice and having the sequence always hit at the same level you could potentially mix it up by doing two right punches and finishing off with a left (the second right punch hitting mid instead of high, while taking off less damage or having a longer frame disadvantage in order to try to balance the game out... ). So say a right hook into a right body blow into a left uppercut, or 2 left jabs into a right hook. All these having their own properties for frames, recovery, hit level, damage.

    While adding this tremendous offensive capability to VF, some defensive options could be delved into aswell : i.e. a parrying system in which the defender selects (by direction/button combination, or whatever seems more natural) the opposing limb to his attackers punch/kick ( right punch attacking means left hand would be used for example ) in order to inashi the attack and counterattack with a short window frame to do so.

    If you misjudge this new type of yomi, you get nailed. And you can always fall back on regular blocking and rely on traditional VF gameplaying. These are just ideas, but the 3 button layout is saturated and difficult to add to ( short of giving every possible direction and button combination a function ). I know there's alot of conservatives out there that get their hair white just hearing about adding extra buttons to VF, but how would you add to the gameplay ? Call me crazy, but giving specific limb control, almost doubling the offensive arsenal and adding extra defensive options does add to the depth of an engine. Given with what AM2 did with only 3 buttons, I'm confident that if they do add buttons the refinement and balance of the game will stay true to the VF style.

    Flame away .

    p.s. Yes. Kamhoux is a moron.
  15. Harlock

    Harlock Member

    One thing that he constantly falls back on is that VF uses linear attacks, and doesn't use a "true" SS, but is instead a reactionary sidestep. He states that Tekken's FRM makes it a real 3d fighter.

    Anyone who has taken martial arts, or boxing, realizes that most of the strikes you learn ARE infact linear. There are very few "sweeping" moves because you want to make sure that your fist/foot stays dirrectly in front of you to keep down on possible openings for your opponent.

    Just a small point.
  16. CrYingCHoCoBo

    CrYingCHoCoBo Well-Known Member

    hence, why i said, tekken is so popular because it mixes teensy amounts of realism (gut punch stuns, writhing in pain when k.o.'ed, staggers when hit in an odd position), with loads of unrealistic things (electricity surrounding certain characters during certain moves, unblockables complete with sparks, animals fighting, robots fighting, physically impossible moves with even more impossible effects: the deathfist, the thunder godfist, jun:b+1 (ch), law: 4,3,4 or d+3,3,3)

    those are simple seeming moves, but if you try to do them, it'll feel very weird, and funny, or in the case of law, just plain ridiculously hard to do. the majority of tekken's moves, you'd never see in a real fight. however, doa uses very realistic moves, and for the most part vf does as well, although, i doubt i'd ever see someone punch rush me into a low kick, and call their style deadly and forbidden.

    then again, i'd like to see someone try to make a very realistic game, and have it still be successful.
  17. ReCharredSigh

    ReCharredSigh Well-Known Member

    i guess it'd probably be interesting seeing what this guy wrote, but i don't have member access to TZ.com, maybe you can post some snippets of his stupidity?

    i guess though if he was going to debate VF over TK, and he was over at TZ, it probably was no surprise that he was going to defend TK, and in a LOT of cases, he completely misunderstands VF(judging by his comments, i can't say that he knows about option selects, which is where a lot of the mind games come from in VF), and even less about TK.

    parallel story; i've been to SRK.com, and they've also discussed different games, specifically 2D vs 3D, and guess what they support; 2D, but at least their arguments are a bit more sensible(they still label 3D games as button mashers though). what i found was stupid though, was that they thought Virtua On was a good fighting game(since 2D fighters tend to have good distancing games, obviously with all those projectiles the writer must have thought this was a good fighting game). you call THAT a fighting game? oh well, but at least their argument that 2D games have good distance games makes sense; once you get far from each other in 3D games, it's hard to threaten the opponent(this is of course compensated by 3D games having MUCH better up-close games and making it hard to get that far away)
  18. sayow

    sayow Well-Known Member

    Before I Shoot My Mouth Off Again...

    <font color=yellow>Former owner of Tekken 2, Tekken 3, Tekken Tag Tournament, Virtua Fighter 2 and present proud owner of Virtua Fighter 4 weighing in...

    I have a few questions before I go into any kind of analysis:<ul type="square">[*]I know that Namco started marketing reversals in Tekken 2 with Jun and Wang and continued the idea thereafter in both the Tekken and Soul Blade series. I do not remember any of the other Tekkens having anything similar to sabaki. Do Tekken 4 characters have sabaki moves or anything similar? We're all becoming VF4 vets here; you know what I mean.
    [*]I've seen some of us here mention that Tekken 4 is out of balance. What makes Tekken unbalanced for each of you? This, of course, assumes that you've played enough times to actually have a valid opinion...
    [*]There is always this concern over Button Mashing. I know I get upset because I want my pals to play better. When I recognize that they're Button Mashing, I formulate a plan and usually win. But it's not the fact that they Button Mash; it's the fact that I want to fight better opponents and that their Button Mashing makes them worse at playing the game. What is it about Button Mashing that gets you upset?
    [/list]Thanks for your comments! Your turn...</font color=yellow>
  19. Marginal

    Marginal Well-Known Member

    Here's Kamhoux' latest summary of his scientific comparison:

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    This is basically how it is.

    Virtua Fighter 4 is known for extensive combo strings, combo variations, reversals and several other defensive options...simply put (especially combo strings. Shun for a Joy Kun boxer should not have so many combos, as this fist is based on quick incapacitation through confusion, not combos. As for Vale Tudo, 90% of their fights end up on the ground. Vanessa has WAY to many strikes to be in this category). All of the technical breakdowns still equal to basic fighting approach, no matter how anal-retensive players would like to become (that goes for all of us). VF has simple options, regardless if VF players want to break them down into sections, give them titles and make them seem deeper than actually necessary (like the guard-grabbing buffers=guarding then grabbing; simple, not complicated). Now I understand how VF fans would naturally support their title, but fact of the matter is this game still supports polygonal fighting basics...there is nothing all that advanced here other than a few charas stance concepts (which still need work conceptually wise). The sidestepping is still average at best, making no real difference from the one of VF3 other than a different control function and I'm sorry, but shuffling several inches to the left or right does not constitute as 3D fighting; not martial-wise nor design wise, it just doesn't. This can be argued til' blue in the face, but the game is still too linear to be deemed a "3D fighter" in this day and age. The square environments pose minor interactivity within gameplay even to this day i.e. making sure one does not get ring-outs or broken through barriers (ala Fighting Vipers, Bloody Roar). Again, this is not an insult, but the game other than simple buffers, new moves and auto reversals has not advanced by much at all. It still plays like VF2 and has the exact same feel (including stiffness in animation transitions) and Yu Suzuki in SEVERAL interviews made this crystal clear, so don't think this is my synopsis.

    And for the record, Tekken still boasts a boat load of flaws. However, my only point, which has become moot at this time, was that in the basic fighting mechanics of BOTH games, Tekken 4 advanced by pushing the envelope further for what real 3D fighting is supposed to be (by borrowing many elements of Soul Calibur). Environments come into play heavily and judge the outcome of fights, and for most players, bouts end up in dizzying spectacles creating circles all over the environment. Now, I am not saying that walking in a circle is not in VF4, but it inevitably is not very necessary and poses as more of an asthetic option rather than a requirement for gameplay...unless you're cornered of course.

    Of the chara roster, Shun is still my favorite, but even he boasts the negative effects of VF's gameplay system....to many strings...way too many. Not like with select charas, but with them all, where it becomes monotonous. Now I still love the game (right now, I'm mastering all of Shun's stance transitions into speedy applications; always back to the basics) and BOTH games are very deep when researched thorougly (moves, defenses etc.). However this time around, Tekken advanced further for 3D combat realization, but it doesn't mean that VF sucks or that I hate it. My opinion is not the case for the final time. So please, don't take it as such.

    Now, you may continue to flame me as before.....


    He also has apparently mastered Shun in two weeks... Because he plays Lei Wulong in Tekken.
  20. Mizkreant

    Mizkreant Well-Known Member

    Re: Before I Shoot My Mouth Off Again...

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    I know that Namco started marketing reversals in Tekken 2 with Jun and Wang and continued the idea thereafter in both the Tekken and Soul Blade series. I do not remember any of the other Tekkens having anything similar to sabaki. Do Tekken 4 characters have sabaki moves or anything similar? We're all becoming VF4 vets here; you know what I mean.

    Tekken never had anything exactly like VF4's sabaki. The only thing I can think of that comes close was Heihachi's kick reversal in TK3. If an opponent interrupted any of Heihachi's moves with a kick using their right leg, Hei would automatically grab it and reverse it (but similar to Wolf's HK reversal, he also took damage). I know this isn't anything like sabaki as it wasn't tied to a specific move on Hei's part.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    I've seen some of us here mention that Tekken 4 is out of balance. What makes Tekken unbalanced for each of you? This, of course, assumes that you've played enough times to actually have a valid opinion...

    The general consensus is that Jin and Steve are overpowered. Several of Jin's moves leave him with a frame advantage even if blocked (i.e. 2,1) and can be abused. In any guessing game, Jin usually has the advantage. For example, the Laser Scrapper mixups. The normal LS cannot be dodged. The version with the slow unblockable can be dodged to Jin's right. The JF unblockable version is extremely hard to dodge. The normal LS is guaranteed if the first punch hits on counter. Anyway, the point is, if you guess wrong, you lose about %50 of your lifebar.
    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    There is always this concern over Button Mashing. I know I get upset because I want my pals to play better. When I recognize that they're Button Mashing, I formulate a plan and usually win. But it's not the fact that they Button Mash; it's the fact that I want to fight better opponents and that their Button Mashing makes them worse at playing the game. What is it about Button Mashing that gets you upset?

    Button mashing itself doesn't upset me. I realize there are casual players who don't have the time or inclination to learn a complex game. The question becomes whether a game engine allows for EFFECTIVE mashing or not. VF doesn't reward mashing at all. Tekken does to a greater extent. I guess it upsets me because mashing plays into the public's perception that fighters are "twitch" games with no real depth. A game which allows effective mashing contributes to this problem by not giving players incentive to master the game.

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