Raging Debate over at TZ....

I only hate button masher's becos they break the joysticks, buttons and make it unplayable for other people.

I guess everyone understands that Kamhoux is 99% rubbish formulated.

 

thanks, but i realized you don't need to login at TZ.com to read the forums; i went over there myself and read the debate; pretty interesting, and humorous to some extent, the forum basically boiled down to:

that guy(i dunno his exact screen name) making some stupid claims about tekken's goodness and vf's flaws,
then those 2 vf experienced guys refute his arguments
repeat those 2 steps about x number of times while he looks more and more like a fool and getting angrier and angrier
occasionally, you have the tekken person who has never played vf come into the thread and commend him for writing an excellant post(yeah right, what do they know?)
and then the occasional hardcore TZ.com fan(you can tell usually by the posts and avatar) come in and denounce him for his knowledge of vf and his shortcomings of tekken.

it was pretty interesting; he kept referring back to his knowledge, the 2 vf guys kept referring to the clips online and listed them, but he kept ignoring that. hah.

 

...

Reguarding sabaki-style moves in Tekken, Anna (in PS1 TK3) also had an "auto-counter" on her FC,f+2. If the opponent attacked high/mid (iirc) she would automatically parry it.

In Tekken Tag, Anna also had a cat-stance that auto-parried low moves/throws, similar to Sarah's FL P+K. However, no additional button input was required (unlike Sarah's) to parry low attacks and all throws.

Law also had something similar to Akiras b+p+k+g (sabaki with a canned follow-up). b+p+g was sortof a long reversal window parry on high/medium punches. If the opponent attacked with a high or mid punch, Law could use any button to follow up (LP was turn around backfist, RP was backhand to face stagger, LK was sidekick, RK was low kick). Off both punch variations, he could do some heavy combo damage, though only the combo sequence after the RP was "truely" guaranteed.

I dunno why I posted this, just saw someone mention Tekken sabaki stuff, thought this info might be helpful. I do think, however, that the Tekken guy has no idea what he's talking about. I've played both series since day 1... and I definitely prefer the strategy and depth of VF4 over TK4.

ben

 

Re: ...

I assume you meant law's b+1+2 ben. Also, didn't Anna's cat stance 4 in tk3 ps plow through low attacks every time and hit the other guy? it that's the way it works then that was the first implementation of sabaki.

I find it funny that tekken players point to 'tag' as the series pinnacle, that game is fucking bullshit through and through. Mishimas/Ogres and Bruce dominate so heavily that you absolutely HAVE to have atleast one of those characters on your team to even compete. Also the machi play that can be done on tag with lei ha-ha steps, and various combinations of ss,backdashes is absolutely retarded when you consider the fact that the fighting arena is infinitely large. Tekken 4 is for intents and purposes a balanced game, more than half the characters have won major tournaments around the globe. T4 Jin is like vf3 jacky, he's super powerful on an intermediate level thus everyone assumes he's unbeatable.

-brady

 

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got to TZ and go into the CCC forum and read the thread titled, Virtua Fighter 4: OMG this game sucks! This guy named, juunanangou claims he is a vf veteran and says that VF4 absolutely sucks, his reasons are absoluely pathetic.

 

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<font color=yellow>Thanks for the input, everyone! Seems like we have a bunch of Tekken enthusiasts as well here...

Law's High Parry is b+1+3 or b+2+4 needed additional input to bring the pain. Kind of a pick 'em after you pull it off; combos were pretty standard. The Tricky Step b+1+2 is a punch parry that needed more input to do damage:

b+1+2 Tricky Step
= ~1 = Tricky Trap 12 damage, high
= 2 = Tricky Fist 12 damage, high
= 3 = Tricky Step In Kick 22 damage, high
= 4 = Tricky Low Kick 15 damage, low

Whether it's Law's High Parry is b+1+3 or b+2+4 or Tricky Step b+1+2 or Anna's FC,f+2 , the result is closer to VF's definition of inashi in that they simply deflect or prevent damage from occuring. If damage is to occur, more button pushing needs to take place. I'm growing partial to the sabaki innovation introduced in VF4. Using Law in Tekken, the sequence goes down like this:<ul type="square">[*]Attacker attacks
[*]Law executes Parry/Attacker loses position and frames
[*]Law counter-attacks or can decide to do nothing at all
[*]Attacker takes damage if Law counters
[/list]With Vanessa, a simple b,f+K gets a block and damage in one fell swoop. Using Vanessa in VF, the sequence goes down like this:<ul type="square">[*]Attacker attacks
[*]Vanessa uses sabaki
[*]Attacker takes damage
[/list]Each has advantanges of their own I suppose. I remember being able to pull combos out pretty easily after either type of parry by Law. Until now, all I can get with Vanessa's sabaki is the 23 damage and the standard df+K or u+P damage. I haven't explored the combo or follow-up possibilities yet. Nor have I tried the other characters in VF4...

Please continue...</font color=yellow>

 

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haha, y'kno, the interesting thing are the people who only play one type of fighting game and not the other(ie 3Ders at SRK.com, or VFers at TZ.com). you ask them what their opinions about the "other" game, and they claim it sucks; some even state that they've played it and it sucks, some even come out to say they've mastered the game, and it sucks.

well, the interesting thing is you delve deep and you'll find one similar thing; they haven't really played the game and gotten to know it. a lotta those guys in the kaohoux thread who state that vf sucks back it up with "oh i played it 2 hours and it sucks" or "i beat the CPU in kumite mode and got up to 1st dan" or something like that. kaohoux states that he mastered shun in 2 weeks; you master jacky in 2 weeks(and even then, that's the mechanical aspect of him; the mind games and the skills with that are another story) obviously, most of us know that you aren't going to get good at the game in 2 hours or just playing the CPU; the fun stems from playing against the player and learning the deep strategies of it.

and on a side note; i've never once seen kaohoux mention option select when he talked about VF4; no wonder why he thinks it's not as deep as TK4. most of us know how deep the 50/50 guessing game along with all those option selects makes VF4.

the funny part in the forums was the guy named Marginal who knew about VF4 AND TK4; him and VF4player were just listing all the factual stuff very correctly while making him look like an ass. and how he kept stating how TK4 was less button masher friendly. i guess i could go on and on, but obviously his words show his stupidity for himself.

 

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did you read that thread I mentioned above, the guy says he is a VF veteran, but had no clue what option select is, he thought it was just the option menu with the picture sound, etc stuff.

 

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Hmm, how come all top level Korean champion vids, they are using Hwrang, as well as most high level competitors?

 

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Duh. Fierce patriotism. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

 

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that's false, anna's parry wasn't THAT useful, and it had to be done in advance, or you'd be open, so basically it was a guessing game.

as for ttt sucking because it's unbalanced, for your information, mishima's placed 2nd in the world tourney with Alex Valle, and they didn't plow through everyone else, they had to work for their win. and i don't know anyone who uses ha-ha steps anymore, that was just something new and different, crazy legs worked much better, ha-ha steps are just a way to increase mixups on a bulldog, it doesn't work on turtles.

and im not even gonna dignify ur 't4 is a balanced game' theory, that's just silly...it's a no brainer, play the game, go to tourneys...you'll figure it out sooner or later. actually, you prolly play jin from the way you defend him, at least most of the experts i know who play him admit that he's cheap.

 

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well theres more than mishimas in tag, i also said you could use ogres or bruce. 5 whole characters weeeee. I've been to ttt tournaments, seen results and its always mishimas and ogres at teh top in last the few years.

again, let me reiterate. t4 jin is like vf3 jacky, he's succesful at an intermediate level. When you actually learn the game he's still powerful but can be taken down. A+ Jin players have lost to Kuma, Julia and Marduk in california tournaments.
In Japan major tournaments have beaten extremely capable jin players with nina, christie and ling. Download the videos from trc if you don't believe me.

As for my own qualifications, I've played in atleast one major midwest tournament in t4 and played 6 different Jins, I beat them all with Christie and won the winners bracket.

Finally the last big us tournament was not only won by a julia player, but out of the top 7 placers, they used 6 different characters when it counted in their final matches.

Just because you cant beat Jin's scrubby lazer sraper, 2,1 and parry shit doesn't mean no one else can. It means you have to practice more.

 

dudes,

i am a scrub<font color=yellow>~</font color=yellow> at both games, admittedly, so i might be out of line contributing to this discussion... but then lack of experience & knowledge hasn't prevented anyone else from adding their $0.02, so here is mine. /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

anyway i think chanchai brought up an important point regarding the 'mindgame' of vf4 vs t4 that can be expounded upon. i'm surprised really that this hasn't been addressed already since kamahoux's idea of progression seems to be entirely confined to superficial stuff like background interaction etc while ignoring the meat.

i messed around with t4 until i got sick of the jabs ... but during that time i learned a bit about t4 gameplay and unless i've missed something, it seems that the winningest strategies in high level t4 rely heavily upon using simple 50/50 mixups, something that vf's defensive option-select since vf3 onward is geared to effectively counter. with that development vf looks to have progressed <font color=yellow>WAY</font color=yellow> further than any competitor as far as the very important 'mindgame' aspect of gameplay is concerned, making it a much deeper /versus/images/icons/cool.gif and interesting /versus/images/icons/cool.gif experience at the highest levels of competition. i mean isn't the whole mind duel the biggest reason these fighting games have such longevity? in that regard vf4 totally blows t4 out of the water!~ i think maybe... or i'm wrong. heh. /versus/images/icons/blush.gif

 

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what's all this tekken junk doing here? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

if y'all are done discussing VF vs. tekken and have moved on to tekken vs. tekken, maybe take it to general.

 

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yeah, i read the post, it was pretty funny, then when vf4player, maginal, or some of the other vf4 players downplay him, he boasts of his confidence in throw escaping without talking about option select to at the very least assure them that he knows what he's talking about... i could go on, kinda weird how some people always ignore facts even when they're pressed in their faces, but i guess...

i personally am getting tired of these tk vs. vf threads. it usually doesn't turn into a fair, biased argument, but one in favor of one game, and usually with lack of evidence in the other(need proof? tz provides some good showings of fools). and they usually don't accomplish anything either; the scrub who knows nothing about the other game will agree, the person who has played the other game will downplay the poster, and the original poster will be unrelenting in his views(even when good solid evidence is shoved into his face). sorry to state the obvious, but i'm personally tired of this...i'm pretty sure a lot of you are too.

 

CrYingCHoCoBo, do you know anything about Tekken or do you enjoy that airy feeling you get from talking outta your ass.

 

Please all here, follow the link to the new thread that I posted to clear things up a bit. And the only reason why I never posted here was because I was already used to the TZ U.I.

http://tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37062

 

<font color=yellow>Y'know... There are reasons why many of us can speak so frankly, honestly and purely about comparisons and differences between Tekken and Virtua Fighter:
<ul type="square">[*]We are among the many who visit arcades and/or the 10+ million own PS or PS2
[*]Tekken was marketed exclusively to the PS and PS2 markets
[*]Virtua Fighter was/is marketed exclusively to the PS2 market
[*]We've exhausted our attention and interest in Tekken's various incarnations, even to the point of lunacy
[*]We're here at the mighty VFDC because we're former Tekken pitbulls, turtles and nutjobs looking ways to play better in this intriguingly great fight system
[/list]IMO you have more nutjobs here checking in with the voice of reason. Some of us may have even played and hailed VF before we subjected ourselves to Tekken.
/versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

::gives everyone at the mighty VFDC pound/dap::

::goes back to make sense of the mighty TZ's Tekken vs. VF threads::

So many trolls over there yo! Bring the bunker gear and fire retardant foam before entering... Peace...</font color=yellow>

 

For those that even care what I wrote about on TZ this afternoon... at least in the 15 minutes I decided to give the thread (yes, I typed it in approx. 15 minutes, some of this stuff had already been in my head hoping somebody would mention it)... here ya go:

I've only skimmed this for the most part... but so far there are a lot of things on both sides of the fence (Tekken and VF) that haven't been mentioned. I don't want to list all of them, just give an idea.

However, i should also state that in trying to be objective... getting past the interface might help. In my experience, the interface is more or less preference over objective value. To me VF's interface is extremely clean, while Tekken's interface is sloppy so to speak--but tries to make up for it with various buffering and overlap methods and additional stick motions to negate certain side effects. This isn't saying Tekken's interface is bad, it's just fine with me... But that's how it looks to me in general. (But I generally advocate that part of the beauty of TTT was in how sloppy the game was designed--there are just so many "odd things" to keep people entertained and even baffled at moments).

Okay... beyond interface and more into function... which is what I hope you guys would stress more if you guys try to pursue a more detailed assessment of the games.

Tekken tends to stress player's respective left/right side in determining various effects. Many of the VF representatives (I think) have neglected to mention that VF emphasizes open and closed stance and in addition to that, the back and front of the character. It plays quite a huge effect in comboing as well as your chances for a successful throw attempt or connecting various attacks as well. Only a few characters in VF have things focusing on the particular left/right... VF players typically look for the front side or back side of their opponent and the stance that results between the two characters (hence open and closed stance). This is a very big deal in determining the outcome in striking and throw games (at least if you want to always be accurate).

VF4 has given throws execution time, but maintained a lot of classic rules (except for instant throw determination). The emphasis of these classic rules was that you could not throw an opponent during their execution phase of an attack (there are exceptions), nor the hit frame. But you can throw during the recovery.

Like the general 3d fighting game design, VF4's striking design is based on the common paper rock scissors. High attacks and special lows can be blocked both high and low. Mid attacks and low throws can only be blocked with high block. Low attacks and throws can only be blocked with low block. Not too different... However, the differences lie mainly in the inspiration of the frame design of moves with relation to most moves in the game of a similar class. This can be argued on for days and end up telling people much of what they already know. Tekken 4 separated a lot of priority pokes (in very small numbers) far apart from the rest of the attacks which have led to so many jab fests (at least at intermediate level play). VF4's closest thing to something being this overwhelming is the low punch which is so easily handled by moving to mid range, dodging, reversals, sabakis, low throws, hopping, and attacks that override low punches. This is definitely oversimplifying the whole spectrum of frame phase design for the strikes in each game of course... It's only meant to be an example... More detail can be spent on this and who knows, maybe I'll post about it or maybe I won't... I just don't know who would really listen at this point based on how previous arguments have gone.

Sabaki attacks are another aspect of VF4 which are generally attacks that override specific classes of attacks if the technique is timed properly in relation to the opponent's attack. This has played a big role in altering the flow of the game and adding to the mindgame that already exists in the VF series. Again, more detail could be gone into on this.

Regarding 3d environments.... VF3tb could be compared to Tekken 4, while VF4 could be compared to Tekken Tag.... How do I say this... Tekken 4 has a similar approach to the 3d aspect of the fighting game that VF3tb had (and I honestly find VF3tb to have it better, but that's my biased opinion and I will admit that--as much as I acknowledge all my whoring of T4 opponents when they are on a higher slope--just that VF3tb had a huge positioning game in all of its stages which the characters had to account for in so many, many ways). So what about VF4? The designers of VF4 decided to go towards less indirect strategy, less positioning, and going more towards faster action, mindgame design based on much more up close combat (but still having lots of range play) for a more intense experience requiring a lot of faster thinking (or strong experience and quick understanding of the situations). VF4 still has a lot of positioning in it however... Just not the same as VF3tb, but VF4 has the ring out and wall positioning as well as combo range positioning (angle you are fighting along the ring), setups and baits, and plenty of 3d movement that works if you understand the flow of the game (thus able to use the evades--not the sidesteps--they are two different things). Evading attacks also play a big role in positioning, Lau's b+K+G is one simple example out of so many others (for instance, it's preferable to do Lau's b+K+G when it's going to slam the opponent into the wall sideways, thus Lau can combo the sucker or break the wall and reposition for a ring out oriented game, etc... goes beyond this too).

Again... on all of these there is more to be said. On the engines, there is more to be said.

But I don't have the time to explain it all... for the moment, this should be enough and let me know if it's meant anything to you if you care. I haven't even gone beyond the surface.

-Chanchai

 

Re:actually...

Alex valle finished third in the TTT world tournament losing to MIC and a double king team. This was also well before wave dashing became common and before people really had an idea of how good the ogre's were.