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Raging Debate over at TZ....

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by ancientwarrior, Apr 9, 2002.

  1. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    general Asian culture (from Ge Ge Ge no Kitaro to anything even remotely based on the manga and anime works of Osamu Tezuka, Hayao Miyazaki, Masamune Shirow, Kyosuke Fujishima, Rumiko Takahashi etc.),

    <hr></blockquote>


    My fucking god...u're truly a nutjob.

    read comics and u're influenced by the asian culture?
    Their work DO NOT REFLECT Asian culture. It's nothing more than story and art with Japanese style and flavor.


    Try Living in a Asian country first or better yet, just live in another country that's closest to u before attempting to say u know the culture of other races.
     
  2. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    *rolls eyes*
    Yeah, counterstrike... halflife, halo... some of those deep FPS's.
    We must have different definitions of depth. Those games are incredibly fun, and they have some strategy, but deep isn't the first word that comes to mind when describing any run-around-and-shoot-em-all game.

    As for RPG's, eh, it's thoroughly debateable (probably by someone who's more qualified than me) but ... we're getting offtopic. You're moving into a subject you feel comfortable chatting about all day long, and have failed to address any of the important points made by chanchai or me. Your halfassed statement about the japanese may apply to RPG's, and they're definitely running behind in the FPS category(snicker)... but we're discussing fighting games, and VF specifically.

    Japanese fighting games whomp the crap out of anything the US ever did. VF whomps the crap out of most other fighting games for depth, although you can make a good case for some of the better capcom games being on the same level. I'd even stomach an argument for tekken. Give me something convincing that doesn't involve a PC game.
     
  3. MrWhite

    MrWhite Well-Known Member

    Dont forget Mortal Kombat 4, C !

    <font color=red>*Insane Laughter*</font color=red>
     
  4. WayGamble

    WayGamble New Member

    Why do you keep calling yourself an expert at Tekken? Obviously from your posts you know absolutely nothing about Tekken. I mean are you posting garbage as a joke? You can't possibly take yourself seriously, can you?
     
  5. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    Alright, let me give all who seem interested a little insight as to what I mean when I say that I don't seem to see eye to eye with the VF players when they describe depth in this series. These are a memorable list of the fighting games that I remember and have recorded playing thoroughly for atleast 5-6 months each...and yes, that includes the crappy ones too *if it isn't obvious enough, my no.1 favorite genres are both action and fighting games:

    Yie Yar Kung Fu, Karate Champ, Street Smart, Pit Fighter, China Warrior, Street Fighter, SF II (2---Super Turbo X), War Gods, Bio Freaks, MK I---IV, Tobal 1,2, Sonic Fighters, Last Bronx, DOA 1-3 (from Saturn to Xbox), Toshinden 1-3, SFA 1-3, Capcom vs. SNK 1,2, Xmen COTA, Marvel Super Heroes, Xmen vs. SF, Marvel vs. Capcom, Dark Legends (Jap. Saturn), Heaven's Gate (Jap. PSX), VS, Fighting Bujitsu, VF 1-4, Tekken 1-4, Cardinal Syn, Dragon Ball Z 1,2,3/Hyper Demension/DBZ Legends/DBZ Ultimate Battle 22/DB GT/DBZ Sega arcade ver., Destegra, Bushido Blade 1,2, Kengo, Dark Stalkers 1-3, Last Blade 1,2, Fatal Fury (2,special,3, Real Bout, Real Bout Special, Real Bout 2, Real Bout 2(PSX ver.),Mark of the Wolf, Wild Ambition), King of Fighters 94,95,96,97,99, Dynasty Warriors, Ergeiz, 3D Fighting School (AKA Fighter Maker), Rival Schools 1,2, Star Gladiator 1,2, K1 GP, Galaxy Fight (Neo Geo ver.), Samurai Spirits 1-4, Guilty Gear 1,2, Fatal Fury 2(Jap. Game Gear),Gundam the Battle Master, Eretzvaju, Art of Fighting 1-3, UFC (DC ver.),Killing Zone, Star Wars: Masters of Teras Kasi, Power Instinct (arcade ver.), Fighters History 1-2(Dynamite), Power Stone, Double Dragon: the Shadow Falls, TMNT Tournament Fighters (SNES & Genesis ver.), Rise of the Robots (SNES), Ranma 1/2 1,2, Yu Yu Hakusho (Genesis, SNES), Soul Edge(Blade), Soul Calibur,Thrill Kill, Wu Tang: Shaolin Style,Victorious Boxers,Mike Tyson's Punch-Out (just for reference, the code: 0073735963) , Zero Divide, Xmen: Mutant Academy, Killer Instinct 1-2, Breakers (neo geo), World Heroes (1,2, Jet, Perfect), Kabuki Klash, Ninja Masters, Savage Reign.....

    Note: I've posted this for a similar comment on TZ

    Now, this is the biggest reason why I've stopped learning all of the "tech talk" that each game has and have relied on one thing alone, delving into each and yanking out exactly what each contains in its most true form. This also explains why I just keep simple approaches to each and if they are truly in-depth as you all like to say so often, then it's not something that I need to look very hard for i.e. Samurai Showdown IV. Fighting in all of these games is very simple....one attacks, the other defends, one defends, the other breaks. There are reverses of all sorts, power, speed etc. all of them share similar traits. So in order to break each down, delving into the "buffers" and "options" of each becomes very tedious after awhile....especially when I consistantly go back to play old titles i.e.Yie Yar Kung Fu for R&D. All of the tech talk, descriptions and what not never equal to the actual speech of real time combat and that's all that counts. Sure talking online is cool for about a minute, but trading a thesis on a specific game i.e. VF4 means squat if I'm still getting beaten, now doesn't it. I swear, I'm not trying to sound "Holy-er than thou" or anything, but it becomes tedious when all that matters is if my punch knocks you out while you're still fumbling around with various depth-related "options" and "buffers".....and yes, this goes for ALL fighting games alike. This was proven again recently when I fought someone using Shun Di and I descided to choose Lei Fei. Beforehand, he was discussing long-winded theories and technical features that the game had to offer before putting in his token. This also applied toward me as he expressed how I would lose because I "do not understand the depths of VF4 as a coveted Tekken player". So he proved to be a veteran of the series, you could say. In the end I still won and he became angry wondering why in the most complicated manners possible. I told him with all of the talk and so-called knowledge that he engaged in, did he forget that my simple punches, kicks and counters could still kill him. I'll put it the way Jun Fan once said it," When I first started martial arts, a punch was just a punch, a kick just a kick. When I began to understand martial arts, a punch was more than just a punch, a kick more than just a kick. Once I became advanced within martial arts, a punch was just a punch, a kick just a kick". I hope you all understand what I'm trying to say here. All of these games generally play the same, and VF is not an exception, neither is Tekken. My only comparison was in pushing the "3D fighting game envelope" this time around with both series, not on the depths of one to the other or the subtle advantages of either. In other words, you try playing so many fighting games for so long and then you'll see just how everything appears so simple to you too.
     
  6. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    So he proved to be a veteran of the series, you could say

    <hr></blockquote>

    What? u beat the one guy? n somehow was able to come to such a conclusion? ( not to mention all the other anal conclusions you've come up with as well)

    And him knowing the game doesn't mean he's a veteran.

    U are truly a moron, a tool, an idiot.

    Intelligence is humanity greatest surivial trait. Therefore it is logical that the stupid (Kamhou X) should be left to natural selection.

    Piss off.
     
  7. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    It seems that you missed my point in an effort to flame me instead. Don't dwell on the details, the big picture is what counts. If you just concentrate on the details of a single leaf, you'll inevitably miss the bloom of the entire tree. You have alot of aggression, my child. Would you like a hug.....a line from the sutras, perhaps? May peace be with you.
     
  8. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    All of the tech talk, descriptions and what not never equal to the actual speech of real time combat and that's all that counts.

    It would seem the whole long post boiled down to this line, which is something chucky said a while ago, but in a dumber sounding way:
    'you can jack off with frames and jargon all you want but in the end it's just punches and kicks.' You're saying that the depth we're attributing to VF is actually just manufactured by the players, we take simple concepts and just dig into them deeper and deeper until there's a pile of info about one dinky move... then call that pile of info "depth"

    is that the long and short of it?

    If so, you're off base. You don't get it because you haven't played the game seriously. Does it matter that a move is 8 frames recovery vs. 9? absolutely. Does it matter if you have -6 frames disadvantage versus minus 2, or that lau's b,f+P whiffs if buffered after a stumble throw? absolutely. All the frame jacking off and little esoteric bits translate into real, practical gameplay stuff. Like "if I elbow after blocking this move, I'll never get interrupted and I may stagger them" or "I can throw this move if I block it every time for free".

    And that sort of depth is mostly applicable to attacking/counterattacking. There's the whole mindgame of how do I punish someone who tech rolls and recovers crouching.. .how do I hurt them when I have a guaranteed throw, but they're going to enter reversals+throw escapes... how can I follow up that stumble throw knowing that they can struggle in time to block my favorite move... etc etc etc.

    Putting it another way, there are only 6 types of pieces on a chessboard, but knowing how to use them provides infinite depth. While I wouldn't call any video game as deep as chess, VF works the same way. There are a handful of basic things you need to know like attack/block/dodge/throw/reverse/recover... but each one has twenty little layers you need to know, and lots of things you should have memorized, and lots of things where knowing exact execution and recovery times can dramatically change how the match goes.

    If our definitions of depth are different, we'll probably never agree. But I can only see two applicable definitions of depth:
    -being able to use a few resources in an infinite variety of ways (that play off of each other), or
    -being able to make use of tons of information and, through memorization and research, sift it down to effective, practical techniques.

    VF's got both of these in spades.
     
  9. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    On the contary...I didn't missed anything at all.

    I am not flaming you btw.
    Merely highlighting the FACT that u (idiot) are quite a fool who likes to make uneducated conclusions.
     
  10. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    Posted by CreeD: You don't get it because you haven't played the game seriously. Does it matter that a move is 8 frames recovery vs. 9? absolutely. Does it matter if you have -6 frames disadvantage versus minus 2, or that lau's b,f+P whiffs if buffered after a stumble throw? absolutely. All the frame jacking off and little esoteric bits translate into real, practical gameplay stuff. Like "if I elbow after blocking this move, I'll never get interrupted and I may stagger them" or "I can throw this move if I block it every time for free".


    This is exactly my point. All of this is completely unecessary and all that matters is what you feel and react through, not their names and descriptions. And again, I have played all of the VF's throroughly, just as well as the Tekkens. I don't break things down through names and frames of animation but only in basic fighting game logistics. What works is what works and vice versa. As far as the "Mind Games", all fighting games contain this at an expert level, even the poorly made ones. This additive doesn't make VF special or in a separate class one bit. You all only choose to see it that way because it's your favorite title in this genre...... It's only a fighting "Game", not a real fight......
     
  11. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    Did you create Virtua Fighter 4?
     
  12. Marginal

    Marginal Well-Known Member

    Hamhocks, this is exactly why you got spanked over at TZ. How can you claim intimate knowledge of anything when you know nothing? You weren't even aware of what features were present in VF 2.0 vs 2.1 and Sega even helped you out by LISTING the differences in the Saturn version's instruction book..

    It's like the sound of one hand clapping, or a stool with no legs.

    And for the last time, you work in a low level capacity for ROCKSTAR GAMES. Rock Star frickin' Games. Why are they having you play old fighting games? Do they fear your insights as much as the people at TZ and VF.com do? Is this all really just busywork to shut you up?

    They all probably just got tired of you telling the story about how you never would've gotten that year of college if not for your horse. /versus/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  13. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Now, this is the biggest reason why I've stopped learning all of the "tech talk" that each game has and have relied on one thing alone, delving into each and yanking out exactly what each contains in its most true form.

    <hr></blockquote>

    I don't think u are really saying anything about VF4 or tekken4's true form. Like most people said, you do more trash talk than anything ...... Not to mention that you avoid all the important points in other people's post.
     
  14. imf

    imf Well-Known Member

    Kamhou_X, where are you from?

    It never changes, only your perception of it changes. I'd like to change your perception* of VF4 sometime.

    thanks


    *hand you your ass
     
  15. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    This is exactly my point. All of this is completely unecessary and all that matters is what you feel and react through, not their names and descriptions. And again, I have played all of the VF's throroughly, just as well as the Tekkens. I don't break things down through names and frames of animation but only in basic fighting game logistics. What works is what works and vice versa. As far as the "Mind Games", all fighting games contain this at an expert level, even the poorly made ones. This additive doesn't make VF special or in a separate class one bit.

    re: what works vs. what doesn't. A lot of times this is discovered by frame data. People on here were sure akira's knee wasn't throw counterable, frame data says it is. now people know to react quickly and throw immediately, and poof, one of his useful tools is rendered less useful. Chatting about frames IS useful, it's not just an intellectual fun exercise. Another good example is GLC's post about VF2 combos, frames show that PKG --> iai is a true combo, it's something the average scrub doesn't know. hell, PKG's and iaigeri kicks were probably discovered as a result of studying frames... someone noticed, "hey, it says you can cancel on frame 12... but it says here it's got 12 frames of exe. What happens if I cancel on the 12th frame?"

    We're sort of offtopic. Whether people frame-masturbate or play theory fighter or not, how does any of this point to VF being less or more deep? I never said VF is in a special class, it just does what some other games do, but on a more interesting level... and in some cases 'what other games do' is just following VF's lead .

    Look at VF's throw system. You can throw in some old fighters but can't escape them (MK series). In another you can escape but you take damage and get no initiative (SF). In yet another you can escape and it's neutral (I haven't seen all the escapes in tekken but they seem to end up neutral all the time), but there's also the ability to double escape (TK). In VF you can triple escape, combine reversals with escapes, dodge-escape, and specific throws (when escaped) give initiative and others leave things neutral, and still others guarantee a counterattack. It's just aspect of the game that is done elegantly, and better than tekken or SF or any other fighting game you care to name.
     
  16. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    > I have played all of the VF's throroughly

    bullshit you did. your line about 2.0 not having sidesteps proves that you're full of shit on that point. and since you make that false claim, don't expect us to take you seriously when you say you know other games thoroughly. most of your arguments are deliberate attempts to change the subject and ignore all other points made.

    i don't know why i bothered to word that out so civilized-like...

    are you sure you're not ice-9's butt buddy? or ice-9 himself, fucking with us? you sound so much like him.
     
  17. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Thanks for proving my point again.

    U r a complete tool.

    Good bye.
     
  18. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    NYC.....you're welcome to try
     
  19. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    Before you make that assumption of any other fighting game, play them all first....even half of the ones that I've studied/played......then, see if your assumption remains the same. I guarantee it will not.
     
  20. Kamhou_X

    Kamhou_X Member

    Here's an example of a few of the new tweaks from 2-2.1:

    -an unguarded PK combo will make the player fall
    - 2.1, an unguarded combo will make the player stagger rather than fall

    -there was a bug that caused Lau to float higher in the air when kicked. He also had slower get-up recovery. I think this was on the 2P side, I'm not sure though.
    -2.1, they fixed the Lau bug and made them react the same way when hit and shortened the get-up recovery time.

    from what I remember, 2.1 also had:

    -fixing the annoying bug where Shun Di couldn't get a master ranking. Similar to the 99% bug of Gran Turismo 2
    -Kage's launch throw used to keep charas floating for awhile, but was dumbed down a bit.
    -a "down" or decending attack is able to hit an opponent even if they're not completely on the ground.....another unfixed bug that all of the VFs and Tekken 1&2 boasted.

    I remember quite a few of them. Now please, give it a rest....I've nothing to prove to you on this end and the explanation itself was quite tiring..........
     

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