Reversal, inashi, sabaki. Naming convention proposal

Since there has been a little debate regarding the difference between inashis and reversals, I thought I'd come up with some definitions. Please, feel free to help with any worthwhile input, I'm not expert after all /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Reversal: move that deflects an opponent's attack, causing knockdown and damage.
Examples: Pai: /+, Akira: //+

Inashi: move that deflect an opponent's attack, causing little or no damage to the opponent, but causing stagger (no knockdown) . The stagger may or may not be struggleable.
Examples: Pai: /+, Aoi: Tenchin'you stance, //+ against full circular kicks, Kage: neutral in Jumonji stance against high punches.

Sabaki: Move that can deflect certain moves with the right timing. The incoming attack will be pushed aside, causing a "scratching" sound.
Some sabakis cause no damage on their own, but can lead into canned follow-ups: Akira: +++(->), Goh: + (->+).
Other than reversals and inashis, sabakis can be attacks on their own: Lion: , Aoi: +

Special case: Aoi's canned evades when using //+ against double limbed kicks. Though not an inashi by definition (no stagger), they most closely resemble inashis in execution and are too limited to warrant a class of their own. Thus I would group them under inashis.

 

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Since there has been a little debate regarding the difference between inashis and reversals, I thought I'd come up with some definitions.

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Debate? No offense, but the current definitions are pretty solid. Your new ones are primarily repeats of the existing definitions.

Reversals: your new definition requires that damage be taken? Well, Aoi can reverse everything in the game practically, right? Ever seen a double swallow kick reversal? It's a reversal all right, but there's no damage. And no, it's not an inashi as a result. It's a reversal. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Same goes for Aoi and circular rising attacks, etc. They're reversals, not inashis.

You mention Akira's db+P+K+G. The P+K part of this is a sabaki, not the db+P+K+G. Think of that as you would Jacky's shuffle step...special movement only. Same deal for threat stance, bokutai, etc.

Ok, the best way to look at this, and note that I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm merely trying to explain a system/notation that is already in place. Reversals are performed with a back type joystick motion (++, ++, and ++). Inashis are the opposite, using forward motions or neutrals in Aoi's case (++, ++). Sabakis are a different beast altogether. No "woiechhhh" sound, not a sabaki, simple as that.

So, nothing really to debate. That's the way it is, as it's been for a long while now. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif I will, however, admit that there is some interesting sides to this: How does one classify Akira's f+P+K+G? Or Wolf's new ROAR. Well, the Perfect guide lists Akira's f+P+K+G as a special thing on it's own - it's not an inashi, and it's not a sabaki either. Same deal for Wolf's ROAR...it's a move, no more no less. It's not a sabaki, nor is is an inashi. It's Wolf's ROAR. And it's ok to have special cases - not everything needs to be classified.

cheers,

 

So basically you would determine whether something is an inashi or a reversal by how it is done, while I'd classify them by what they do.
So you'd say Aoi's + against Pai's is an reversal, since it is executed with , while I'd say it's a special evade (which I classified as a special form of inashi), since that's what it does.

I can see your point though, it's somewhat simpler to refer to + as a reversal than saying something contrieved like reversal/inashi/special evade each time you are referring to the command +

R.A.W seems to be a special form of sabaki to me. It doesn't deflect the attack nor emit the scratching sound, but it has canned followups that enable you to interrupt whatever comes after the punch you "R.A.W.ed".

On a side note, to add even more confusion /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif, the "scratching" noise that used to be exclusive to sabakis is also to be heard when doing Aoi's special evades /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

hehe - there IS still some debate I guess, as I don't quite agree with llany's definition. I also fall into the camp of "define it by what it does" vs. "define it by the control input". Goh's df+P+K for example is undoubtedly a sabaki rather than an inashi (wOiIIChT!).

I agree with most of your stuff 3of19 with the exception of the sabaki.

Reversal: Grabs an incoming attack and does significant damage (more than 10 pts or whatever pai's inashis do). Whether or not it knocks down is irrelevant but I think they all do pretty much.

Inashi: Little or no damage version of the reversal, but it sets up further damage either by turning the opponent around or causing a stagger.

Sabaki: An attack that overrides certain other kinds of attacks, complete with a special deflection animation and the WOIIICHHTTT.

So just for the record - the part that's debateable:

-- If it causes the woiiicht sound but does no damage, is it a sabaki or an inashi? My vote is inashi.

Akira's b+P+K+G? Inashi reversal with a canned punch followup.
Goh's P+K? Inashi reversal that goes into a hold if you input P+G after (but it causes the deflection animation and sound associated with sabakis)
Aoi's spinning-away-thing? Inashi reversal, but the opponent doesn't suffer through any special animation.
Jacky's autoreversal? Inashi reversal with a special canned punch followup, like akira's b+PKG.
Vanessa's? Inashi that goes into a catch, like Goh's, but without the need to input anything.

It'd be nice if these got standardized. It's hard to go by hunches and opinions. It'd be better to ask "what is the designer's intent"... but that's not helpful either. In VF3, inashi was coined for a move that did no damage and only slightly altered the opponent's attack animation (i.e. pai's cloud hand slowed the opponent's punch animation without causing a special unique animation). Currently there is no equivalent to that in VF4, both inashis and sabakis cause special animations to the opponent rather than merely slowing them down.
As for the original meaning of sabaki, did sega intend that everything that causes the woiiicht sound is to be called a sabaki, or not? Nobody knows.

 

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CreeD said:

I agree with most of your stuff 3of19 with the exception of the sabaki.

Reversal: Grabs an incoming attack and does significant damage (more than 10 pts or whatever pai's inashis do). Whether or not it knocks down is irrelevant but I think they all do pretty much.

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Agreed.
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Inashi: Little or no damage version of the reversal, but it sets up further damage either by turning the opponent around or causing a stagger.

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How about: leaves the opponent at a disadvantage other than KD?
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Sabaki: An attack that overrides certain other kinds of attacks, complete with a special deflection animation and the WOIIICHHTTT.

So just for the record - the part that's debateable:

-- If it causes the woiiicht sound but does no damage, is it a sabaki or an inashi? My vote is inashi.

Akira's b+P+K+G? Inashi reversal with a canned punch followup.
Goh's P+K? Inashi reversal that goes into a hold if you input P+G after (but it causes the deflection animation and sound associated with sabakis)
Aoi's spinning-away-thing? Inashi reversal, but the opponent doesn't suffer through any special animation.
Jacky's autoreversal? Inashi reversal with a special canned punch followup, like akira's b+PKG.
Vanessa's? Inashi that goes into a catch, like Goh's, but without the need to input anything

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Apart from Aoi's special evade and Jacky's parry, these moves are referred to as sabakis in PS2 VF4's Command Training. And the only "woiiicht" move that isn't is Aoi's special evade afaik.

 

Thought the main common point of reversals is that you cant follow up on them. The animation has to play through and you and your opp. are in a regular 50/50 game afterwards.

 

on a related note someone was telling me I shouldn't say "inashi reversal" because it's confusing. To me it's not confusing, but it's maybe a bit redundant. Anyway to address your point:

A reversal is a way of deflecting your opponent's incoming attack with a special motion.

Inashi reversals do it with no damage (or in pai's case a few pts) and set up followups.
Regular reversals do damage and cause the situation you describe (opponent is down).
Sabakis are not reversals by my definition, they're attacks that override other attacks. You can sort of use them like reversals though.

I'm warming up to the idea of calling stuff like goh's P+K a sabaki rather than an inashi. Functionally, it is an inashi reversal... but one major difference between something like goh's P+K and pai's df+P+K (besides the damage) is that goh does the swipe motion and absolutely nothing the opponent does alters goh's animation. But when pai does df+P+K she locks into a certain position and goes through a certain animation if it's successful.

Of course, the original inashi reversal, pai's cloud hand, did not lock pai into a special animation either. It goes on and on

 

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Of course, the original inashi reversal, pai's cloud hand, did not lock pai into a special animation either. It goes on and on


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Don't forget Aoi's VF3 inashis (b+P,db+P) they did lock Aoi into an animation, as well as her opponent, that had to play out before either could react. (Those VF3 inashis are the same as her VF4/EVO b+P+K+G stance inashis). Just a reminder that "what is an inashi" has always been a subject of debate in the VF world, even in VF3.

I believe in the little to no damage + combo setup definition -- Goh's P+K, and b,df+P+K, Vanessa's b,df+P+K, Sarah's flamingo P+K are much more like inashi's than sabakis. Even though the game gives them the sabaki sound. I don't think the game counts them as attacks because, I'mfairly certain you can't "MC" dodge Goh's P+K and you can throw him out of it (I could be wrong on those points though -- will test). Go figure .


cheers,
kbcat

 

Actually, Aoi can ground throw or attack after a few of her reversals. Which ones exactly escape me at the moment...

Of course in Evo ver B, I don't think she has a gauranteed ground throw after any reversal. But I could be, and hope I am, mistaken.

 

An easy way to think of these types of moves, in my mind, is:

reversal: catches opponent's attack and causes damage

inashi: catches opponent's attack and causes struggle-able stagger (and small damage in the case of Pai's f, d/f inashis)

sabaki: deflects the opponent's attack and causes an unstruggle-able stagger

sabaki attacks: attacks that deflect certain moves causing an unstruggle-able stagger

Spotlite

 

Aoi's ground throw after reversals.

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Of course in Evo ver B, I don't think she has a gauranteed ground throw after any reversal. But I could be, and hope I am, mistaken.

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My experience with EVO-Aoi is that her ground throw is not guarranteed after any reversals anymore. But, you are still quite likely to get it after the reversals that it was guarranteed for in previous versions.


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: Aoi's ground throw after reversals.

So my original reversal common point was correct : You cannot have a guaranteed follow up after a reversal...

 

Re: Aoi's ground throw after reversals.

By "unable to be followed up" you probably meant that the reversal doesn't turn you around or stagger, right? Whether or not you can tack on a ground punch or ground throw really doesn't matter at all in this debate, the point is a normal reversal does damage and knocks down.

From memory, I've seen aoi's closed (?) stance sidekick reversal followed up successfully with a ground throw in evo version B, and I bet her open stance punch reversal (where she backhands you) at the very least guarantees a ground chop. I'm sure one or two of pai's can be followed with ground punches too.

I still think the crux of the argument is no-damage sabakis. Kbcat and I are on the same page about those while others feel it's a sabaki if it makes the woiiicht sound.

 

That's not a bad theory, except I think that even if you divide it between strugglable and unstrugglable, some of the aoi yin-yang 0-damage reversals are unstrugglable. Hell, maybe all of them. But I wouldn't call them sabakis.

 

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Akira's b+P+K+G? Inashi reversal with a canned punch followup.


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Akira's db+P+K+G, P+K probably fits this description too. The P+K does no damage, and operates just like b+P+K+G. As you already know, the f+P only comes out after a successful deflection with P+K, so I guess the entire sequence (db+P+K+G, P+K, f+P or b+P+K+G, f+P) could arguably be labeled "sabakis", but since they can both be interrupted by throws, I'd say they fall into the inashi category just like you said.

 

Well, by the definitions I use, Aoi's YY is an inashi, not a reversal or sabaki. While some of the follow-ups after the various YY catches aren't avoidable, you'll always see the shaking lever. Same as Pai's inashis, you may not be able to struggle out of all of the follow-ups, but you aren't just stuck doing nothing until the pre-determined window of stun ends, like after a sabaki such as Sarah's low P sabaki from the flamingo, or Jacky's punch sabaki. In those situations, all you can do is hope the opponent misses thier follow-up.

In the case of inashis, while you may not be able to avoid Aoi's fPP, you can struggle out of bigger moves, and that makes the difference, for me.

Spotlite

 

re: aoi's inashi, are you sure they're all strugglable, wiggling joystick icon and everything?
Some of them simply spin around the incoming attack too, no struggling there...

Also does kage's auto-inashi create a wiggling joystick icon? From memory it doesn't but I don't see it too often.