Review and help please

Don't know if this Koo to post in this section but I'm looking for any help with my Vanessa. So I figure I might as well post a video of me playing and getting my ass kicked by Chanchi instead of trying to describe it in some long drawn out fashion. Any help other then you suck is appreciated. If I'm wrong for posting this here. I apologize in advanced


http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=H_O1gPNDs_0

 

In chronological order:

@00:17, round start. I'm guessing all those OS are infact failed attempts to OS . Try to inputt the move using QCF . If you're really trying to hitcheck OS CH well... don't do that vs Lion. The string is high high high. You were interrupted by Lion's foot crumple the third time you tried it. Using a mid string.

@00:28 you do OS blocked . This guarantees at least , maybe more vs lion.

@00:30 Lion whiffs fully charged MDP and you try to whiff punish with a throw. THIS would have been a good time to use since, AFAIK, it combos on RH.

@00:33 random catch throw. No. Your opponent has the lead in life and has not shown signs that he'll stop attacking, so why try to throw him? Besides, a lot of Lion's attacks will beat the catch throw due to tech-jumping (such as the move used to beat you) or tech-crouching properties.

@00:37 backdash throw attempt, gets stuffed by Lion's b,f+k again. Backdash throw attempt is pointless, at best it will whiff. Try or backdash shoulder ram or or (since you're in OS) or something.

@00:46 please hitcheck DS

@00:46 EXCELLENT use of DS to punish the low sweep. The move is only -16 on block so DS wouldn't have been able to punish it. Nice.

@1:01: OS > mash pppp is a waste of damage, > > is VERY easy to do, does more damage and gives better oki.

@1:07 you tried to punish Lion's f,f+k,k with vane's catch throw. No. The catch throw is too slow, it can't be used as a punisher. You should have tried a normal throw (HCB if you wanted to mount) or better for guaranteed damage.

@1:21 again weak combo after OS , no stomp afterwards.

@1:24 nice spacing > OS

@1:31 you try to OS . There's no reason to use this string in the middle of the ring. It's good if you get a wall splat, otherwise there are better alternatives for Vanessa.

That's the first game, i have a lecture now, i can comment the rest of the vid later if you're not opposed to it.

 

No please due. Anything helps. As you can see I'm not afraid to look bad on here.

 

OK, i'm back here goes:

@Marly: oops, yeah, i meant QCF+k

@2:27 you stagger your opponent and chose a slow followup, OS , so your opponent blocked it. See this thread for faster stagger followups. IMHO there's no reason to EVER do OS against a staggered opponent, OS is much faster and the float yields comparable damage. Besides, you needed just ONE HIT to win the round, even would have been enough and it's 1f faster.

@2:43 third time you try to punish Lion's with a throw after blocking it It's actually +2f on block

@2:50 you do 3 DS in a row

@3:06 Lion stuffs your OS with his b+p,p. Had you used a mid, or even OS , this wouldn't have happened.

@3:09 you block Lion's D,f+p+k, which has nice pushback, so your OS whiffs when he backdashes. You could try using moves (preferably mids) with better reach. At 15f is the fastest. At 16f there's that might have yielded a nice combo, or that also have sold, far reaching hitboxes. Then you have at 18f and the shoulder ram at 19f.

@4:00 you hitcheck a second DS thus blocking Lion's d+p. Now, hitchecking is normally a good thing, but, personally, when i see my opponent evade i input the second kick. AFAIK if the opponent does anything except E(C)D(TE)G you score a counterhit which leaves you +8. And, in this particular situation, since you had already sideturned your opponent with the first , that would mean a free throw attempt (8+3=11!).

@4:04 unfortunately DS will whiff at a distance. Really, DS is good, but you have to know when to use it. When the opponent is at a distance it might be better to try or or .

@4:08 after landing DS , you do a combo, then you dash in and try to throw your opponent. Your opponent did techroll > evade > CD > f+p+k and beat your throw attempt. This is why vanessa players usually prefer when they knock the opponent down: it's safe on block and beats everything (except Aoi/Brad reversals). Once your opponent starts blocking after techroll you can try mixing it up with which will leave you at +3 frames on block.

@4:10 you low throw after blocking Lion's f,f+k,k Input error?

@4:12 you backcrumple Lion, then do DS I can't test right now but but i'm pretty sure you can find something more damaging by spending 5 minutes in the dojo. DS should probably prep your opponent up again (the same way it does after a DS head crumple).

@4:26 what a mess. OS is +2 on block. will beat low punches and 12f jabs. Low punch will beat those. Instead, i don't know, you do , you score a CH, then you do another , get another CH, then you do a 3rd high attack in a row, ). The Lion player obviously decided to low punch his way out of it. Playing it safe, he used Lion's db+p,p. You should learn to recognize that move, it's actually -6 on hit for Lion. But you might know this, which might be why you decided to attack, choosing (again). In any case, the Lion player definitely knows he doesn't have the advantage, so he uses b,b+k, hoping that the built-in backdash of his move will make your own attack whiff. Which is the case. So i really hope that by now you are convinced that is NOT a good move to throw out. IMHO, if you replace each with you would win a LOT more.

@4:39 you successfully land mount . Then you try to backdash (then backwalk?) your way out of Lion's rising kick. What you should do after every OS throw is jump back with and watch your opponent carefully. If they do a rising kick press while landing to stagger them with vane's jumping . If they don't, then do to knock them down again if they try anything once they get up.

@4:52 you didn't stomp after DS .

@5:16 nice use of OS to beat Lion's

@5:22 you dash > DS . I assume this was an input error and that you wanted to do instead. DS is pointless outside of combos.

@5:30 you DS after blocking Lion's FC f+p+k. Don't. (i) It has extremely poor range, less than a jab. (ii) It is high. After blocking attacks with pushback in DS you should probably use if you think your opponent will backdash (you will stagger them) or if you think they'll evade, or hitconfirm .

@5:36 you OS after blocking Lion's +: but Lion's low punch beats you. The move is -5 on block, Lion's low punch 12f and your low kick 17f so i don't really know what happened, maybe you were a bit slow

@6:36 AAAARGH another OS ! Lion's db+k takes 1/4 of your lifebar for using a high move. Bad OS , bad!

@7:00 again, practice doing the combo after OS .

@7:12 nice transition to IP instead of techrolling!

@7:24, lion is BT, you low punch but the Lion player spaces you with u+p+k so your low punch whiffs. And then you change stances I assume that was a failed input for the shoulder ram? And then you backdash, which is even more baffling because you were already close to the ring's edge?

@7:58 Lion counterhits you with low punch you after you hit him with OS . That is to be expected: OS is -4 on normal hit. I repeat, you don't have the advantage after that move connects on normal hit. Look for the yellow flash and act accordingly - fuzzy on NH, on CH.

@8:16 you counterhit your opponent with DS . Then you . Why? You're at +8. At this advantage even shoulder ram will beat your opponent's attacks. No need to use a sabaki! Then you block Lion's attack and do another . Again, why? You have the advantage!

@8:32 another OS , another float for Lion

@8:48 you backdash Lion's HCF+p then try to throw him Why? (i) you're out of throw range, obviously, since you just a voided an attack! (ii) Lion recovers low! Like i said previously, you are using vanessa, if you want to backdash, you might as well use (or any of the backdash options mentioned in my previous post).

@8:50 lol, Lion's backdash avoids after a blocked low punch Another example of why should be your bread and butter - it doesn't whiff as easily.

@8:55 Lion avoids OS by stepping to vane's back. You could mix up some OS in your game, it tracks to vanessa's back.

@8:56 don't try to OS after blocking Lion's HCF As i mentioned earlier, it's only -16 on block. You should use to (crouch stagger) > float instead. Notice again? Oh well, at least the Lion player punished you with neutral throw instead of something more damaging (Lion's b,b+k is guaranteed!).

@9:00 lol OS IS jumps over Lion's evade > HCF+p. Then you do . Again, this is NOT a recommended stagger followup. The catch throw is very, very slow. Predictably your opponent unstaggers and ducks in time

@9:07 you CH Lion with a low punch, then you jab. Why? You are at +7! Use a mid attack, preferably a launcher. If anything, THIS is the time to use .

@9:09, again, you try to attack after landing OS on NH. Predictably you get CH by your opponent.

@9:17 same deal

@9:17 this is the first and only time you manage to connect with OS on CH and knock your opponent down with the followup.

@9:20, once your opponent techrolls, you try to mix it up with OS IS . It doesn't work since your opponent appears to know that he can fuzzy guard to defend against all IS followups. Even worse, you had initially counterhit your opponent with the , meaning you gave up on the free damage & knockdown of the followup

@9:21 Lion hits you with low punch and you do yet another and get launched for it

@9:28 you techroll to IP and then... press guard to stand up so you get hit by Lion's guard break on NH. Why press guard to stand up? Why not use the catch throw or the attack or to roll back? Pressing guard to stand when the opponent is right on top of you is not only the worst possible option but basically renders your transition to IP pointless - you could have techrolled instead.

@9:31 OS jumping kick? I'm assuming this was a failed input for ?

@9:34 you block after (remember you have +2f advantage!)

...and that was it.

All in all, my recommendations would be:

play around with DS a bit more to learn what it beats, when it combos, what are your options when the opponent is sideturned etc.
stop using OS string
use OS *hitcheck* or followup a LOT more
don't attack after OS NH (if you can't reliably see the yellow flash don't attack at all, that's what i do)
*hitcheck* after a blocked
use more mids (including when you stagger the opponent, otherwise they'll duck your throw attempts)

 

OK, edited some of my comments as per Marly's indications, now if only someone could to the same for one of my replays

 

Okay I'm gonna go throw it threw my perspective. BY NO MEANS AM I SAYING IM RIGHT. Just how I'm processing things from what your saying. " don't know if I'm even saying that right "

:46 you say at first I don't hit check. K K but at the same time right under it saying I made excellent use. I'm not followingg. Also being honest I kinda though DS KK was just a keep away option.

I like using OS 4 p,k because of the options off of it. Is it really that bad?

I'm very ignorant to frames. My fault.

IDK what Afaik means.

I didn't. Know the combo after OS 9 P. Well try yours though.
I got into using OS 9 P cause I think a lot of folks either backdash too much or mash 2 P. Better options?

I admit. I'm fishing a lot trying to punish things or gussing because I think I fail to react.

I think folks just felt bad enough for me to review and helped out. LOL. I think I wouldn't have gotten any response if I just tried explaining and not putting up video.

Thanks a lot though. Really do appreciate it. Probably will be posting more soon.

 

Hey OMNE, really glad you made this thread--amazing feedback! Here are some clarifications ^_^

I might be mistaken, but you might misunderstand what he means by hit-checking. It's not the same as Poke-Checking. Hit-Check means to make sure you're doing the correct (or "a correct") option based on whether the move you did was blocked, normal hit (NH), counter hit (MC or CH), etc... You are using KK well, but the critique is you're not consistently doing "the correct thing" after confirming whether it hits or is blocked, whiffed, or whatever. He might also be saying "where you are using it is good, but how you make full use of it needs work."

I don't know Vanessa that well, but the reason it was bad against me at least was because I was basically punishing you for using high attacks. And Lion does feed on counter hitting high attacks (or slipping them too). So at least with how the match was going, and probably in the overall matchup, they are not a good choice. I think that was the point of it here. But it does sound like Vanessa has better options worth exploring.

As Far As I Know

It's true I 2P a lot and I backdash a lot. I think I do them at better times than a lot of people online, but I certainly open myself to predictable punishment because of it. However, you did have a hard time nailing me with it and the risk of doing a hard-counter like this is, if you guess, wrong, you eat a combo.

That said, you always have to factor in your opponent in VF, especially in VF. This sounds obvious, but it has deeper meaning than most people think. Because I 2P a lot, it doesn't mean I mash it the same way some online players do. I just mash it in very specific situations and especially if it's working.

I know it is easy to look at the damage potential of a move like 9P but you really have to assess risk and reward, and sometimes, the lower risk and lower reward is better. Similar to a conversation we had a week or so ago, it can be compared to strategy in american football where generally most teams go for incremental gains (ground game) instead of going for pass plays all the time. Using a move that has narrow application a lot and justifying it because of the upside is like trying to always go for passing plays--you better be damn good at executing it always and reading the opposition because the risk could be as bad as a turnover. Going for incremental gains is often the better path for most people.

Also, the problem with 9P is that it's so easy to defend, that it is only really used for well read situations. Most of the critique is when you are using it though, especially in stagger situations... That said, in stagger situations like the others are mentioned, you want to use your mid options a lot to encourage me to just struggle --> standing Guard, AND THEN you use throw options when I've shown you that I'll just stand and block when I struggle.

Back to better options for dealing with 2P and backdash... many times the simpler options are good over the majority of the fight. Wish I knew Vanessa better hehe ^_^

Again... I think this thread is awesome! Really glad you created it, though shy about me being put out there lol. But all good and always stuff to work on ^_^

 

I forgot to add a disclaimer to my first post, so here goes.

DISCLAIMER:

I am not pretending to be a good player, i can't ETEG, EDTEG, ECDTEG etc. in fact i only TE once in a blue moon, i fail to hitcheck, i drop combos (which is rather surprising given that i always go for the easiest ones) and to top this off i have ingrained flowcharts i can't seem to be able to shake off.

I'm a Vanessa fanboy though and strive to learn her in each VF iteration

Thus i love watching other Vanessa players and often study their replays frame by frame. See my post about the Vanessa Off Tournament for example.

@OMNE: like i said my last post, "play around with DS a bit more" in the dojo. As Chanchai explained, you're using it well already, but you can use it even better without too much efffort.

And concerning OS , again, you're using it well but you can get much better reward out of it if you practiced a more damaging combo or studied your options if the move is blocked.

@Chanchai: lol, i didn't think Lion players would read this thread so i didn't comment on your play. Besides, i admit i haven't even touched VF5FS Lion so i wouldn't dare criticizing. But it's impressive how you manage to land so often, it's like you're psychic! Also, thanks for clarifying some of my ramblings

 

I'm interested in Vanessa, always (my rival of the 00's mainly played Vanessa, I miss fighting Rayblade... but I should learn to deal with our long distance connection nowadays...) ^_^

44K and (Chanchai's) Lion
Thanks for the compliments on 44K! I'll tell you at least my approach to using it, or how it's used here lol.

44K mainly happens from whiff-checking, similar to hit-checking. I'll warn that overuse of baiting backdashes is dangerous. On that night, I was using it a lot because a lot of people were not punishing it or were not at least keeping themselves safe (punishing it might require too much reading sometimes, so learning to watch for it and just being safe is sometimes enough until you're good at punishing a read-beackdash). Ironically, the last two weeks a lot of the Portland players did get good at punishing baiting-backdashes (baiting-backdashes = backdashes used the way it is with 44K, because I usually won't evade cancel it), but on the night of this video almost nobody was punishing it so I ran with it--risk:reward had been skewed lol.

Back to the 44K landing... obviously you backdash with 44, so your 44 is pre-buffered. If during the backdash I'm convinced a basic high/mid poke is pretty much happening, I just have to hit 4K and I can cut off the backdash pretty early to get a 44K. If I play Wolf, my main way of landing 46P+K is actually from whiff-punishing. Similarly, this is why I love the standing palm attacks of Akira/Lau/Goh. You can train yourself to whiff punish with their 46P.

Lion has the added benefit of his low punch creating a hard-for-the-opponent to notice gap, even when it is blocked. This kind of adds to his BS factor, so backdash can be a little safer. It is still dangerous though, and more people should learn to punish backdashes in Final Showdown because backdashes improved in functionality, but also had its risk modified by butt-stagger.

Over-using baiting backdashes with Lion in FS is similar to overusing his low game or overusing his evade game, you're going to get killed if you don't stop doing it--if the opponent shows they'll nail you for it and you are being predictable. And against Taka, I don't even do it much at all because his Standing K --> 60% health destroyed!

So once the opponent starts to punish the baiting backdash, then my backdash might switch up to stepping. Can't really do the 44K as well from it unless the opponent uses a really really giant total frames attack that I step around.

44K has been a staple of Lion's pretty much forever... at least since VF3 and I've been using it in Lion's game since VF3dc (dreamcast VF3tb). I started really using it a ton in VF4 and around VF5 I got better at whiff-checking 44K. Kinda had to in VF5 because you had to work pretty hard with Lion to do damage in that game, but also because the anti-clash situation was one of Lion's good assets in VF5 (but Lion also had a greater BullShit game in VF5 to make up for Lion's shortcomings).

Something that is hard to see if you are not the Lion player, is how early you can whiff-check 44K. Also, this is offline play, so reactive play is much stronger here than in online play. Online play I'm guessing much more than I do in offline play. A lot of people also fall for 444K because to them it looks like the 44K came late but they got hit out of their attack as if it was Major Counter. What happened was the backdash caused just enough whiff for their attack and I get an edge-case whiff-punish that was really close. More often than not though, this is straight up guessing in my part (against Akira, because of the threat of 666P, I sometimes have to switch up to guessing game 44K with the backdash being a small marginal increase for me).

The funny part is my reactions in general are pretty bad. But the backdash whiff-check situation is a primed reflex from a lot of use and practice. That said, as mentioned above, it's dangerous.

TIPS FOR BACKDASH PUNISHING:
* For most characters, it is sufficient to train your backdash punisher from low punch range. At least for me it is.

* Against Lion, train it at elbow range just because of his awkward ranges and the small push from his low punch. Depending on your character, this can make it much harder.

* A lot of people train backdash punishing from up-close and sure enough, everyone has a massive combo from point-blank range. But this is misleading, more often than not you will hit the backdasher from around low punch or elbow range, so make sure whatever combo you are going for will work from there.

* The range of your attacks is not your only tool for backdash punishing! You can use moves that work awesome from 33 crouch dash ^_^ Heck, you can use moves that work awesome with 66 buffering!

* Backdash punishing is a read-situation. Unless you're just using a safe flowchart option like 3K (which is great), consider whatever risks you are putting yourself in if you guess wrong. Without using something like 33x or 3K (because it's safe), your backdash punisher could open you up if it is evaded or even interrupted--so just consider the risks while training your backdash punish game. My recommendation is to go with safe plans first until you have a hard read on your opponent's habit--similar principle to punishing excessive low punches (that is, going for the hard-counter like a hop attack puts you at risk so overusing it as your anti-2P can be detrimental to you in the long run).

* Also don't forget that your opponent can switch up to stepping, but in most of those cases, you're not going to hurt because of that--he'll just neutralize the situation probably.

Thanks
Thanks a lot for the responses to OMNE! I personally really appreciate it! And I think you guys did an awesome job making it clear to him some of the things he needs to understand about VF and the rationale behind some attacks. He gets a lot of stuff, but a lot of nuance was pointed out that I think makes a lot more sense to him now!

Also helps me a ton too, so thanks on my own behalf as well! Really appreciative of Erdraug's and MarlyJay's feedback! Both were so valuable and appreciated!

Also, as a disclaimer, I am clearly guessing a lot too even offline. It's a bad habit, but I do "not 44K" enough times from a backdash to comfortably say I'm whiff-checking a decent amount. But like hit-checking situations, in offline play especially, one should really check almost all of the time until the situation becomes a real guessing game (at which point, you might need to consider another option entirely in the same situations--depends on Risk:Reward).

Another Note: People should always train for optimal risk:reward (ie. perfect play), but during the match the risk:reward is skewed greatly by the human element. That said, this is also why it's good that Erdraug refers to repeated situations prior to an event--this is acknowledging the changed risk:reward ^_^

Side-Thought: K(G) is a funny way to bait my 44K when I backdash Not saying it's a great option, but it's an example of something that would probably mess me up and manipulate me. But I don't even know if Vanessa even has K(G) lol.

 

Rewatching the video, my "sign language" to OMNE after the second game: I'm explaining to him that I'm using "distance creating moves" (like Lion's 336P+K) in a way to setup things like the 44K. In this case the setup is like:

Opponent blocks Lion's 336P+K (so gap created) --> Backdash --> see opponent move forward to attack, but especially look for the attack --> 44K.

I use gap creating moves this way a lot, it becomes another mindgame though as there are a lot of ways to counter this (such is VF). When I play Jean, I enjoy using his 3PP because of things like this (creating gaps for baiting). Side note, I like Jean's 46P,K.

Another tip I tell local players: If someone is baiting you (especially Lion or Shun), it's often good to bait them in that situation.