Rules for staying sideturned

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Zass, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. Zass

    Zass Well-Known Member

    I don't understand the rules for when a string keeps an opponent sideturned. For example, I can repeatedly standing p a sideturned opponent, and they stay sideturned. If I elbow a sideturned opponent and they block, they stay sideturned as well, but can 2p me out of any attack, at which point they aren't sideturned anymore. What are the rules for staying sideturned?

    Someone told me that the answer is that sideturned opponents just have 3 frames added to their attacks. But it seems that that can't be right. Take the following situation:

    1) Pick Wolf vs Jacky in Dojo. Set Jacky to block then standing p.
    2) OM + 3p with Wolf. This puts Wolf at -1. (Normally -4, but becomes -1 since ST). Jacky stays ST.
    3) Press p. Jacky will do a p as well, but counterhit Wolf.

    Jacky is clearly ST but his p comes out in 12 frames, beating your 12 frame p that you started at -1. If Jacky's moves were "3 frames added", then Wolf's p would win out.

    The wiki also says:
    "When side turned, it takes 3 frames to be able to face forward and guard. Therefore when you have, for example, +12 on a side turned situation, 15 (or less) frame attacks will connect if the opponent simply attempts to guard. Throws against a sideturned opponent will come out as side throws, regardless of the command used."

    But this doesn't exactly address the situation above, nor does it explain why an opponent stays sideturned when blocking repeated standing P, but not when blocking repeated elbows.
  2. 001

    001 Well-Known Member Content Mgr El Blaze

    i understand it as once your opponent guards a move while sideturned and puts you at disadvantage, your next move loses the invisible advantage you would continue to have if something hits/counterhits. so if you do any move that puts you at negative on guard your opponent can counterhit and break the sideturned state. since jab leaves you at +4 or whatever on guard you never lose that advantaged sideturned state and can pin your opponent sideturned.

    pick blaze in dojo and record the dummy to p, k+g, ppk. block p then do a move to the cpu to get counterhit by k+g then try to block the ppk. you can't block it even though ch k+g reads as +9.

    now set the dummy to guard and do om 46ppk, ppk the last hit of 46ppk is also +9 from the side but the dummy guards the incoming side guarded ppk.

    i dunno if it's a good example but this is the only way i know to explain it. :eek:
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  3. Chill

    Chill +40 DP Content Manager Shun Gold Supporter

    Chill PKG
    There are two aspects to the side-turned situation which are distinct from each other. The wiki entry for what you're observing is this one:

    So from a side-turned position, you've attacked with Wolf's [3][P]. This is normally -4 on guard but as you've observed is now -1 because of the above-mentioned frame bonus.

    The statement that 3 frames will be added to Jacky's P is true in a certain sense. Jacky's P is actually always 12 frames regardless of the side-turned situation. But because of the frame bonus above, you can put Jacky into a situation in which he would be at a worse frame situation than normal.

    For example if you did Wolf's [3][P] and it (normal) hit, then your advantage would be only +1. From +1, if you tried to (as an example) use [4][K][+][G] (16 frames execution), Jacky could easily beat your followup with his punch. However, if your [3][P] (normal) hit from a side-turned situation, you would be at +4. You could then use [4][K][+][G] which would beat out Jacky's P. In this sense Jacky's attack 'has had 3 frames added to it' - But what has really happened is that Jacky had to wait an extra 3 frames before his punch would start executing because of the frame bonus.

    The other aspect of the side-turned situation is the part of the wiki which you've quoted in your post. If you are in a side-turned situation and start holding [G], it takes 3 frames (from the time you start holding [G]) to be able to guard, then another 3 frames for your character to have fully turned and face forwards.

    However it's a rare situation that you would gain such a high frame advantage that you could gain a guaranteed hit. The wiki gives an example of being at +12 but that is a vary rare situation if you're on offense.

    In regards to the opponent staying side-turned when repeatedly blocking Ps, this is another aspect again to do with the other character being 'locked' once they are hit with a side-turned move and it's determined by:
    a) The advantage/disadvantage you have.
    b) How long the execution of your follow-up move is.

    So because [P] has both high frame advantage and a quick execution you can keep the other player 'locked' in a side-turned situation. If you tried to do a blocked [P] from side-turned then [6][K], the [6][K] would not hit side-turned as it is too slow. The rule is that after your first side-turned attack, there is a 12 frame window in which your opponent will stay 'locked' in a side-turned position. So from a side-turned [P] at +4, you could do [6][P] (16 frames) which will hit side-turned, as your adv. (+4) plus the side-turned window (+12) = 16.

    Note that this 'locking' window only applies if the opponent has already guarded/been hit by a move in a side-turned position. It doesn't take 12 frames to turn around in a neutral situation. The window also doesn't stop the other player from attacking, evading, dashing etc. like normal block/hit stun does.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
    Strider786, G0d3L, Zass and 2 others like this.
  4. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Just to reiterate what Chill already said so people coming back to this thread in the future can just get their answer quickly.

    If your next attack after side turn is net 12 frames or more (after your adv or disadv) then your attack will keep them sideturn.
    Chill and Ellis like this.
  5. Zass

    Zass Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the extremely helpful and detailed reply Chill!

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