Same old gripe for VF4?

what i find odd is the remark to the effect that tekken has 'more realistic on ground hit detection'.
realism is a relative thing. playing VF it seems that yes the options to hit a grounded opponent are limited. but as a tekken player i don;t claim for a second that tekken's is more realistic. yes, some low kicks should 'technically' hit them on the ground, but as a ling player who kills people on the ground, half of the stuff i use should 'realistically' fan them with air as they lie there. in my opinion i find that 'to hit someone on the ground, you must use an attack aimed at a grounded opponent' is more realistic.

and as said, if you want a realistic treatment of attacking a downed opponent, then everyone should be able to leap on them and pummel them.

you could say tekken had sabaki first, what with anna's FC f+2 which parries any incoming attack. but that is such a stretch, really. I wont say it cause its really just drawing a similarity. where it was an isolated move in tekken, in VF4 (just about?) every character has at least one sabaki move, making it much more of an element to the game.

 

* realism is a tough issue - lets face it if a 3d fighter was relaistic, you'd be able to shit kick someone to death while they are down. this doesnt work to well in arcade games for some reason. *sarcasm*

Fucking ground games......

 

IMO the is not one Namco character with as much personality as Lau Chan. From the way he moves to his screams, to his voice during win poses, everything about him says bad-ass. IMO.

 

well what do you mean by design. just the way they look. then yes, i'd agree they have somewhat of a cooler look to some of them. but damn, on others they get cheap. mokujin was the worst for me. what the hell was that shit.
But as far as concept they are all re-hashes of old ones.
in T3 the only new character was the chinese chick. but her character design was nothing new, unless you put her in some bright pink clothes then she'll be cool to the masses.
But ingenuity isn't there winning factor. its just looking cool to gain popularity. especially when you got 8 year old kids beating big time players.

jack-stino

 

The day everyone agrees with you is the day ....
oh nevermind. I can't think of an analogy. It's not gonna happen.

I do like Heihachi's design in Tekken. It's nice to see a 60-140 year old with some whupass in him. Shun doesn't have as much appeal for me, although an old man doing drunken master routines is a lot more entertaining than a Jacky Chan ripoff doing them.

As for some of the other designs, Paul is Jacky with a beard. Nina is Sarah. Jin is Akira with more gel. Hwaorang... eh, I dunno, a filipino(?) in warmups doing lots of flashy combos. Sounds like my competition at the Maine Mall. Doesn't do a thing for me.

Gunjack, King/Armor King, Mokujin, Samurai/Insect boy - jokes.
Why try really hard to be clever and make really off-the-wall character designs if the end result is that the character is less believable and impossible to relate to anything in real life?

AGGGGUHHHHHHHH YOU MOTHERFUCKERS! WHO STARTED A TEKKEN VS VIRTUA FIGHTER THREAD IN HERE? I KILLLLL YOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUU#@!#*&!!#!@#!!@!!!!!$!%!!$!$%!!!

Wish I could not get sucked into this. Now this dude's gonna go "you're on crack and dumb also!" and I'm gonna go "You're fucking WRONG. For this, this, and this reason." and then someone's gonna go "I didn't say this, I said THAT. Learn to fucking read!" and I'm gonna go "It's clear what you MEANT was THIS not THAT."
and then they're gonna go "Piss on your gramma, CreeD! And Tekken does so rule!" ....

lemme shut up now.

 

So much for diplomacy, why can't ppl just say both Tekken and VF rock??!! I'm a Tekken player, and I'm not baggin' VF, so how about goin' easy on the Tekken dissin', hey?!

 

Becouse Tekken sucks , its unbalanced and has way too manny gameplayfaults wich can be exploited by cheesy players maybe ?

 

well, i hope i don't sound like i'm dissing .... i play both. sometimes looking at similarities/dissimilarities and how they manifest themselves in how the game is played can be interesting. note i say sometimes, cause comparisons can lead to judgement calls in a hurry.

 

I can admit tekken has some depth, and that it's even fun to play.
VFers tend to get mad though when tekken players say VF has no depth. You don't do that, and that's good... but a lot of tk players (even GOOD ones) think that's the way it is. And it's insulting because half the depth tekken has comes from VF.

 

I knew some zeolot would take offense to the suggestion that any other game than have has ever innovated one thing in the history of fighting games. What I didn't count on was someone with so much zeal as to amazingly attempt to refute every single thing tekken had before vf

Just tell me this: Where did I even mention depth in comparing the two games, let alone say that tekken had more depth than vf?! Where did I say tekken was more innovative than vf? Just out of spite, and the interest of a fair fight, I'm going to continue my list:

Tekken had before vf:
more than one selectable costume per character
random list of opponents to fight in 1player mode
sabaki (like a previous poster said, its stretching but basically true)


Things vf doesn't have:
rendered endings for every character in the home version
fun little side games in the home version
an emphasis on the back story of each fighter
an animated movie
projective attack
insanely cool custumes like rp anna in tag, kick steve, pimp coat heihachi, suit and tie king (ok totally subjective but I wish am2 would try harder in this department)

Anyway to finish this up; the list of stuff vf had before tekken, and stuff that vf has that tekken doesn't: both lists would obviously be longer, and in more important areas like character balance and gameplay stuff. I've prefered the vf series to tekken since day one* but I still find it funny that there are people who play one game exclusively and think the other one is 'all about button mashing'. Oh and I thought this was funny:
boxing, muay thai, caporeira, tae kwon do - so?

*i guess techinically when vf3 first came out i hated vf3 and liked t3 more, but a coupla months later and from then on, i prefered vf3

original post (i don't know how to quote with this):
I'll take a first pass:

Tekken had before:
vale tudo - If you mean Craig, VF4 came out before T4
tech rolls - SF and KOF had it before Tekken; what's your point?
quick recover - see above
flamingo stance - semantics only
many characters with specific stances - but VF had them before Tekken
boundless arena - is this a strength?
auto inashi (stretching here) - you're right
escapable side throws - big whoop
escapable multi-throws - nope, VF first
escapable ground throws - is this a strength? Most wrestling games have this feature
missing characters from previous game (yay) - ok
double-over stun - a different type of stagger
'special mid' low punches - that sounds like an SF/KOF low punch doesn't it
character with name of 'Lei' - that's impressive

vf doesn't have:
boxing, muay thai, caporeira, tae kwon do - so?
playable (in arcade) end boss - no biggie, Dural would have made the game unbalanced
realistic on ground hit detection (unless everything hits on ground in vf4???) - !?!?
tap out of stun - it doesn't need one, the KD's are fairly balanced
tagging - I hope it doesn't get it
'just frame' (unless you count akira's knee?) - Akira's knee doesn't count, but the jury's still out whether or not JF is even a good thing
gaining life back in middle of round (am i forgetting something?) - huh?
space ninja shenanigans - how could AM2 forget??
mainstream popularity in U.S. - unfortunate

Sal is right, you're stretching like crazy here. I like Tekken a lot, but it's ridiculous to suggest that Tekken is the innovator. Yes, Tekken influences VF, I don't think anyone is going to say that AM2 works in a vacuum without looking at other fighting games (including SC, DOA, et. al.).

The argument you're trying is fruitless; for the things you can find that Tekken had before VF, I can get you a billion things that VF had before Tekken. Hell, VF pioneered the concept of 3D fighting. VF is the originator of 3D versus fighting games in the way SF is the originator of all 2D fighting games.

As for the depth issue, that's relatively clear cut. Like I previously wrote in another post, one could make the argument that Tag is "deeper" than VF3, at least from a mechanical perspective (I do think VF3 is deeper in terms of variability in options/mind games). But with all the stance stuff introduced in 4, VF4's mechanical depth is at least up to par. Certainly, to say VF has no depth is just plain misguided.

 

"sabaki (like a previous poster said, its stretching but basically true)"

just to clarify i meant to say its more stretching then basically true. one move with comparable properties doesn't constitue a viable element of gameplay IMO.
one could say the idea was there, but:
take parries for example, the *idea* was around quite long ago. to what degree it enters gameplay matters, which reflects the quality of how the idea is implemented in the game.

OT: I have heard of a tekken revision coming to SVGL. anyone heard of this? apparently some glitches will be fixed, no gameplay tweaks to speak of.

 

yup they already upgraded the game on monday. it was off for like a few hours then turned back on.

 

When I mentioned the depth issue, it is in reference to a different post in this thread, not directly to you. I view the thread in flat mode, so I have a tendency to address many points from many posts in one reply. Sorry for having been misleading.

As for your comparisons, I've suddenly realized why your post bugged me. The comparisons you made are all superficial and do not indicate to me that you understand or play either game to any deep degree. I could be wrong, but those are my impressions.

 

That's just downright hostile...
Any game on the market has gamefaults, and things that can be exploited by cheezy players.. Tekken and VF are no exceptions. How else do u explain all the threads and posts I read regarding the use of dp in VF?? U can't seriously tell me, with an objective point of view, that VF is the perfect game, that just doesn't work... I don't claim Tekken is perfect, nor would I say that about VF, they're in my opinion superior in terms of gameplay than other fighting games out there, but not PeRfeCt....

 

The whole problem with VFers dissin' Tekken and Tekkenites dissin' VF is purely based on the fact that VFers usually don't pay enuf attention to high level Tekken play, and Tekkenites don't pay enuf attention to high level VF play.
After all, you can only have one poison in your life that you indulge in...

If a Tekkenite sees a masher goin' nuts on VF, then of course they're gonna say it lacks depth, the vice versa is true for VFers. High level play in any game looks awesome, I know I got into VF after watching vids and good players pull off funky shit in the arcades.

As to the whole who came up with what first. It's like the whole chicken and egg theory... let's not waste precious game playing time pondering such useless issues...

Tekken and VF r0ck hardc0r3... end of story.

 

Yeah thats hostile , big freaking deal .
I used to own a videogamsetore with a VF3 machine and we held Tekken and VF tournaments etcetera .
I was nearly attacked once after beating a guy at Tekken 3 after we had a discussion wich game was better .
The guy was good I give ya that so to prove my point I played as irritating as I could and exploited every cheesy Tekken trick in the book , he lost and couldnt contain his temper couse I just backed up my arguments .
It were a few painfull fights and it almost ended up in physical harm .
I have nothing against Tekken players ( I have online friends who do tournaments in the US ) as long as they treat VF players with respect and understand that no matter what Tekken doesnt even come lose to the brilliance of VF .
Umm I was trying to make a point here , dont think I actually have .
Ah well who cares ( not me annyway since as you can see im a narrowminded asshole )

 

Yeah, sometimes things can go a little heated in arcades...
I started a rather large scale flame war in the Tekken forumns due to some players playing ultra cheap...but that's over now.
But players can play cheap in both Tekken and VF, it's up to the player what path he/she chooses.. I chose style above victory at all cost, and unfortunately that has costed quite a bit of dough in the past..
Anyway, I understand your point of view... I know a few Tekken players who completely disses VF, I've been trying to convert them to no avail.. oh, well. I like most fighting games, except KOF, that gave me headaches with the ppl jumping all over the place like mice on heat...
*oops, just dissed a game I don't understand. hopefull not too many KOF devotees here.. *

 

"""I know a few Tekken players who completely disses VF, I've been trying to convert them to no avail"""

Aye, I was at playtime todae..alone on the machine and getting really angry with the shitty sticks and unreliable guard button~

Anyhooo...so there I was playing alone and then em Tekkenites walked past me and told me to stop playing a 'silly game'.

Of coz, I invited them for a game and offered to pay them if
they can win me at least 1 round. ( Look ma!, Playing with no Guard Button)~

Of coz I was ready to bring out all my flashy lighting kicks and nail them to the wall~

Of coz they decided to call me a 'loser' and went back to the T4 machine.

Yes, they went back and selected the A&W mascot and Mr Pampers.

I went back to playing Akira.

Oh, what is the point of this post?
Mo~..forgot what I wanted to say~

 

In Tekken series, what's the point with spirit moves? Most opponents I met attempt to use them in vain on me.

 

umm what exactly do you mean by 'spirit' moves?
in many years of tekken i've never heard the term.

also:
thats just ridiculous, those tekken players making snotty remarks like that. where was this?