Sarah Weaknesses and Potential Work Arounds

Since many of us Sarah faithful find her a little underpowered in the FS system, I figured we could use this to list any weaknesses (or grievances) we have and see if maybe, with our combined knowledge we can find ways to work around it.

My main ones for me so far are:

1) Very bad risk-reward profile for a lot of moves: It seems to me that Sarah has to take bigger risks than most people to get good damage. For example is an ex-mid that is -18 on block and -8 on crouching block. I don't understand why that is warranted.

2) Not many good built-in OS: Many of her moves are very specialized and are specifically designed to counter certain actions. In addition, nearly all of her moves that can cover two options ( e.g. + ) are all step-able to her back, which most mid to higher tier players do now so you don't have good ways of catching it.

3) Not enough mids: Self-explanatory, she is just comprised of so many highs that crouch guard really forces you to use her very limited mid-move set which is risky

4) Sort of Low(ish) damage: While she can get some good damage on CH scenarios, more often than not, I feel like her ability to get decent damage (especially on mid weights and up) is reduced immensely because you can't get her built-in combo ender ( + ) very easily or even because it's based on stance which isn't as easy to read mid-combo for her.

5) Certain moves kill her main options: All of the kick sabaki's that certain characters have ( i.e. Goh , Aoi's kick sabaki whose command I've forgotten, Lion , Vany DS and for good measure) really take away her options

6) Inability to throw without step in FL: This one is huge for me because you are removing her best tool for both catching side step and opening up standing guard in FL. Maybe the developers felt it was a little OP but without it, FL to me, always feels like just making things higher risk and higher reward as opposed to giving me a distinctive advantage.

Thoughts? I'll post my thoughts on workarounds soon. As for now, please everyone share!

 

You can do a circular from FL to stop evade or try the low hit throw if faced with standing guard. Aoi K counter is 4K+G. I personally find the shuffle stance to be completely impractical, but slide feels legit from range or in combos. She deals around the same kind of dmg in general as Pai and Aoi, but obviously this isn't VF4E.

 

One counter I feel to some of Sarah's problems is canceling mid-string to allow a new string to follow up. The classic is x ->, which is basically doing a jab to get to +2 on block and then following up with elbow to stuff out or x ->+ to go for a tick-throw. While fuzzy guard-able, it does allow for you to make a safe offensive poke without allowing yourself to be opened up too much. The key is hitting during the frames to clear the buffer so you can get your follow-up move to come out on the 1st possible frame, allowing for a tighter frame game. Some of the ones I've found most effective are:

a) x -> for reflexive people since you can get monstrous damage off of it
b) x -> since many people want to duck the high follow-up and avoid being at -5 against FL. It's a great way to catch them if they do. I think Shinryu Returns found it so HT to him or her.
c) x-> although this puts you at back-turn with -1 if blocked, most people can't register it fast enough to understand the situation since it is really fast. I usually follow-up with a sweep since it is a 16 frame low with knockdown but a good chuck of Sarah's BT options are good. Hitting BT always makes me warm and fuzzy on the inside
d) +x-> used mainly as a wall fishing tool but I find it has great applications on conditioning the opponent. If you use +, it actually puts you in a great spot with FL on block but since the follow-up is high, most people duck on reaction/conditioning. Because of the push back of + there aren't too many good options but can really blow up a lot of stuff since it is fast. Also, near walls this can lead into a heavy stagger to allow for more pressure.
e) FL x -> ~+, I think most Sarahs use this already but it's so SO good. Just make sure to hit the fast enough that you don't cancel FL. Especially powerful if you combine with FL x -> to catch crouch guard. In my lab testing, I've had some success with evade tracking using these 2, but I'm not sure exactly why it occurs
f) x -> + this one I've only started to use but man, it works! I don't like the , follow ups (even with the just frames) because it can be a big gamble if the opponent mixes blocking high and low (true 50-50 that I feel is not in your favor). However, if you find yourself making a bad read and stuck with a blocked , canceling it into + can really mess with an opponent's head.

Is this BLACKSTAR approved I wonder?

 

Of course the shuffle and the slide are gimmicks, that is the problem. She has some very good moves that only come out when you use those gimmicks.

pp2k was removed since vanilla and is now forward slide 2k. Her throws from FL now require a shuffle first. These were key moves in vanilla and they would be useful here if we had them without the gimmicks.

Her shuffle p,p is a great move to catch sidestepping since its fast, but you have to use the shuffle which means you're probably going to get hit.

Her problem is that she has her best moves hidden away in gimmicks. This means you have to play it safe with her other moves which leads you to becoming predictable.

I'll make a better post later with more examples why I think she sucks in the FS system, but you haven't really covered anything we don't already know. Yes, 6p,k leaves you wide open if you miss, as it should. She has 6p,p to make up for it though.

She also does very little damage for the work required of her and this is a big negative in FS where its all about damage. Since the priority system in the game is based on which move does the most damage, she always loses out. She has almost no priority because her moves are so weak. This also messes her up big time.

 

I think the biggest problem with calling someone a Yomi based character is that technically if I know what someone else is doing, I should win 100% of the time regardless of character.

I agree with BLACKSTAR that it feels like you need better Yomi to win with Sarah as opposed to the rest of the cast, but doesn't that by definition make her a worse character? Perhaps then the key is that other characters have better options for shutting down their opponent's options?

 

I'm going to go on the record and say that FS and BS are actually quite useful if you have frame knowledge of your opponent and a good read on their playstyle.

PPP does the same amount of damage as PK and is guaranteed. That leaves you free to either finish her P strings or move into FS. Depending on how abare happy your opponent is, you can then punish them or move into BS. The only weakness with FS and BS is that it is completely killed by 2P, but again, with a good read on your opponent you can finish her P strings to punish that...

There.....that's my 2 cents....carry on.....

 

You're just proving my point. I agree that we shouldn't use this stuff since it leads to taking big damage and I don't use it. My point is that I'm now starting at a disadvantage because most of my character's moves are worthless or buried under gimmicky stuff.

This is what makes her crap, her already limited move list is made even more limited and to get the most out of her attacks you have to use the gimmicks. And if you get hit trying it, good luck making a come back since her damage is so low.

If Sega was going to make her so high risk with the slides and shuffle they could at least have given her high damage to make up for it.

 

*Rant mode enabled*

No special high attacks other than FL - (more on this move later).

Considering her sabaki doesn't crumple or knock down, the advantage it gives is poor.

Lion and Kage both have 11 frame jabs and Sarah doesn't?

hit boxes doesn't really avoid highs in the early frames of start up which would be OK if it gave a flop on mC hits which it doesn't.

Killer Bee Assault doesn't work when you combo from behind? Yet her FL hit throw does a slightly different animation and extra damage.

FL - doesn't avoid moves when at an advantage.

*Rant mode disabled*

 

gives poor advantage? The fuck are you talking about? You get to interrupt your opponents' attacks and go into Flamingo for free!?

Lion and Kage have 11f jabs? Ok, great, Sarah has an 11f jab, 11f kick, and a 10f jab...

Killer Bee Assault doesn't work from behind? Tough shit, alot of moves for a lot of characters don't work from behind...

I really don't want to sound like an ass, but Sarah is not a terrible character. She is lacking some tools, but the tools she has are very good if used in the proper way. Sarah is meant to be aggressive as all hell, that's why her damage output is so low. With the way she is now, if her damage were any higher, 2 correct guesses and the round ends in 9 seconds.

The only improvement Sarah needs is to have her throws put back into FL stance, and to have her BS sabaki also catch 2P. Aside from that, I'm fine with her. It'd be nice if she had all the other shenanigans as the other characters. But, I'm sure other characters wish they had Flamingo shenanigans.

Her P strings are rich with options.
Her 3P is rich with options.
Her 4P is rich with options.
She has counters for 12f+, 14f, 15f+, and 17f+

She is definitely NOT top tier. But, she isn't garbage either. One of the hardest characters in this game to play against is a competent Sarah, as you'll be lucky to get a hit in.

 

If you could only see me drooling at the thought of those things, especially the 2P part.

It would be really nice if you could just do BS without having to do FS as well. I think that would be a fair buff that really open up her options.

 

Heres my thought on her step moves Like dingo said if you use ppp or other mover on ch the opponent will most likely freeze up for FS. Switch step is the same thing. Like FL KK2K Switch step for example. Thats how it is 4 most stances and steps 4 all characters. There used to keep attacking on (-)f.Now her BS is a gimmeck. Because she has to go into FS first you waste too many leaving her defensless for like 15f = free launcher. And thats a problem. Like FG Beast said i want is 4 her to have moves that go into he BS like it does with her FS. Like 4ex idk make moves like PPP~ BS. That way she has access to her BS easier.

Because he BS has REALLY good options. A NH mid stomach crumple, High NH Head crumple, A move similar to jacky's bijee that is +17 on ch allowing a free launcher, a low kick that (+) I think and lastly a Mid Circular!! She could reach high dmg like 100dmg with that bijjee punch and like 90 4 the other 2. Doing this + other stuff will make sarah high tier in VF6

 

Wow if you're not trying i'd hate to see when you are. Anyway i'll give you respect in my post regardless.

Nothing is free in this game. First gives only an advantage of 4 frames for a correct guess. A BLOCKED gives 4 - 7 frames of advantage for example. is too slow on top of all that and doesn't work that well (if at all) when at a disadvantage. So what's the point of having a slow ass sabaki that doesn't work at a disadvantage?

If it didn't matter all jabs would be the same speed no? There's a reason why some characters do and some don't it's not by accident.

I don't care about other characters, the facts are it doesn't work, and for no reason. When SEGA could of easily made it work. If they went to the trouble of programing it to work against Taka then why not during a combo on an opponents back? There's no logic to it considering how her low hit throw has been programed to work on a back turned opponent.

I Never said she was a poor character? The whole thread is here to talk about why she has it hard in VF5FS and how to overcome if possible. I could easily find tons of things that make her useful but my post wasn't aimed at her good points.