Sarah's Move List

Discussion in 'Site News, Questions and Feedback' started by Deniz, Mar 30, 2002.

  1. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    I have some questions about the excellent VF4 Version C move list for the main character I am using, Sarah:

    1. Why is there a separate listing for "Straight Lead (near)" and for "Straight Lead"? I can't see any difference in the move whether she is near or far; the stats for both entries are exactly the same, including the simple button press of P. I've noticed this on the move lists for other characters as well, and I wonder what I am missing. I know Myke believes in keeping move lists uncomplicated, so I am really curious.
    2. Sarah's move list shows the input for her Neck Cut Slash (from Flamingo Stance) as being K+G(hit)f+P+G. This is also the way it is shown at the also excellent Virtua Project site. But in the PS2 training mode, it is simply K+G(hit)P+G, and this works in the game. Is there a reason it's listed differently and less simply on the move lists?
    3. The lists show Sarah's df+P and uf+K+G moves as causing -2DP against Shun, but when I play, they only cause -1DP. Anybody have any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?
    4. I am also a little confused about the reversal level of certain kicks. The Virtua Project move list distinguishes between a midkick [mk] reversal level and a sidekick [sk] reversal level. For instance, Sarah's df+K, u+K+G, and f+K+G are "side kicks," but b+K+G is a "mid kick." Now according to that list, Sarah's P+K sabaki affects side kicks, but not mid kicks. This distinction is not made on the move lists here, so I guess one is incorrect. Anyone have a clue which is correct? I don't have a friend currently to practice with, so I can't test it myself.

    I would really appreciate any answers. I hope no one takes this post as any kind of criticism. The move lists here and at Virtua Project are excellent, and took a lot of hard work to compile. I for one appreciate this, and the lists have been very helpful to me. I am just trying to learn. Thanks.
     
  2. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    1. Why is there a separate listing for "Straight Lead (near)" and for "Straight Lead"?

    The simple answer to this is because the VF publications (Black and Blue Books) from which these lists were derived from, both list these separately. There are some character cases where their near and far variants of the standing punch differ in frame stats. For those that remain the same, I guess it's just confirmation that the punch isn't range dependant.

    2. Sarah's move list shows the input for her Neck Cut Slash (from Flamingo Stance) as being K+G(hit)f+P+G. This is also the way it is shown at the also excellent Virtua Project site. But in the PS2 training mode, it is simply K+G(hit)P+G, and this works in the game. Is there a reason it's listed differently and less simply on the move lists?

    Again, the Black and Blue Books list these as K+G(hit)f+P+G. I don't have the PS2 version myself (yet), but I'm surprised to hear that the training mode reports it as P+G and not f+P+G.

    3. The lists show Sarah's df+P and uf+K+G moves as causing -2DP against Shun, but when I play, they only cause -1DP. Anybody have any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?

    I don't know what's up with that, maybe it's a typo in both the Black and Blue books or a bug that slipped through the PS2 release? *shrug*

    4. I am also a little confused about the reversal level of certain kicks. The Virtua Project move list distinguishes between a midkick [mk] reversal level and a sidekick [sk] reversal level.

    My best guess as to the difference between VP's mk and sk is that sk's are linear kicks that hit mid, and mk's are circular kicks that hit mid. The way circular kicks will be denoted on this site are CR (for crescent) with appropriate hit level, H or M.

    Hope these answers help somewhat, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to go through the lists and raise concerns. I wish more people with the PS2 version would do the same!
     
  3. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    ""the Black and Blue Books list these as K+G(hit)f+P+G""
    U can add the white book to the list as well.


    """The lists show Sarah's df+P and uf+K+G moves as causing -2DP against Shun, but when I play, they only cause -1DP. Anybody have any ideas on what I might be doing wrong? """

    Actually, I turned on my ps2 (Again) and had some fun in trying to figure it out.
    Turns out that the more Shun drinks, the more points d/f+p will reduce.

    DRINK POINT MODIFIER

    drink point modifier activates when shun has 9 and 15 drink points.

    eg. sarah's d/f+P supposedly does a 2 dp reduction. but at DP 9, that move reduces from DP 9 to DP 8, DP 8 to DP 7 and so on. (if shun has over 9dp, d/f+p reduces 2 dp)

    At 15 dp or above, drink point modifiers goes up a notch.
    If shun has 18 drink points, d/f+p takes off 3 points. (So Shun has 15 left)...Slap shun again and Shun has 12 drink points left. However, with only 12 points, every d/f+p will take off 2 drink points until Shun has 8 drink points left...and as explained above, at this stage, every progress d/f+p will only take off 1 drink point.

    If shun somehow freakishly drinks all the way up to 24 points...then d/f+p takes off 4 drink points! So

    24-4=20
    20-4=16
    16-3=13
    13-2=10

    etc etc etc

    Really...it's all simple maths.

    So basically, The more shun drinks...the more we can reduce.
    The less he drinks, the less we can reduce.

    Whacked?

    Not really....it's all abt controlled drinking. It stops idiot shuns from doing nothing but taking drink after drink after drink etc etc etc

    Plus...it's also to protect the old coot, ensuring his drink points aren't easily reduced by players.

    One thing I did found out while mucking around...white book write
    "sarah in flamingo...f+k+G takes off drink points"

    I tried it ..n it sure as hell didn't take off drink points!

    Weird...but then I realised u can follow up the f+k+g with a d/f+p...

    Basically, I assumed that f+k+g has been changed to not reduced drink points in order to assist Shun...think abt it... if Shun eats the f+k+g--?d/f+p flow chart, that's 1+1...or depending on how many drink points shun has..it could easily be 2+3=5 drinks points n so on.

    Side note: every drink point reduction move is also affected by this drink point modifier.

    Case in point, Akira's standing palm takes off 3 drink points if shun goes over 15!

    Yet it reduces only 1 drink point when shun has less than or at 8 drink points!
     
  4. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Oh..one more thing i forgot to add

    I did try out that throw....n it's indeed P+G,
    no need to input f.

    Maybe Sega wanted to make it easier for sarah players, didn't inform enterbrain n softbank abt the changes?

    I'm looking through the book n testing out some stuff...
    my god..it's disgusting to see how much of an advantage Vanessa has when pitted against Shun..

    Drink points reductions queen!


    One more thing...seems that the blue book and the white book has drink points errors...For Akira...b,f+p+k+g reduces drink points, yet it's not listed in the white book~ (or on the site)

    The last bit of Fujin doesn't reduce drink points...but the movelist on the sites states otherwise...

    Tonigaku...I'm off to testing out every god damn move for every character.

    Later~
     
  5. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    yep, same thing worked in vf3 with shun's drinking.
     
  6. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    whoops
    never knew~
    thanks pic /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  7. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Again, the Black and Blue Books list these as K+G(hit)f+P+G. I don't have the PS2 version myself (yet), but I'm surprised to hear that the training mode reports it as P+G and not f+P+G.

    PS2 does have it as just P+G. I've never used this hit throw enough in the arcade to try out simply P+G, but in Ver B arcade the f+P+G works. Something that I found very irritating in free training, if the [FL]K+G is a major counter you canNOT do the hit throw. I've only been able to get it to work on normal hits.

    Myke, on VFDC's Sarah list you missed adding the Rev column info for Sarah's crush tornado. The exe-blk-hit-MC columns are all shifted to the left one column. AFAIK, the crush tornado is a mid/high crescent depending on if it's charged or not... I need to double chk the reversal type myself on the PS2... /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    Re: removing Shun's DP

    Piccolo wrote a sobering Shun guide that's available in the VF3 documents section on this site. It's a percentage thing as Piccolo and Summers have pointed out. Check out the VP movelist legend to see how Shun loses DP on his own when he does sacrifice attacks. I'd like to eventually use a better notation than -xDP in the VP movelists notes column. It will be done eventually...

    My best guess as to the difference between VP's mk and sk is that sk's are linear kicks that hit mid, and mk's are circular kicks that hit mid. The way circular kicks will be denoted on this site are CR (for crescent) with appropriate hit level, H or M.

    No, on VP, sk is for side kicks, the conventional df+K move for most characters, and mk is most other NON-circular mid level kicks like Sarah's punt kick or dragon cannon. VP uses mc for mid-level crescent kicks. (Jacky's b,f+K+G) As far as I understand, the method kbcat used to delineate between sk and mk is by the reversal animation that each generates. mk kick's reversal animation is the old high kick reversal animation from VF3, while the sk reversal is unique to side kicks.

    As far as reversals are concerned, it doesn't matter in VF4. If it's mid-level, you reverse mid, db+P+K. The sticky part will come when we try and to double check the sabaki and inashi. I haven't researched this yet, but I know I will in the process of double checking VP's and VFDC's movelists... there might be a sabaki or inashi that only works against mk but not sk or vice versa.

    Also, VFDC delineates between HE and HP for "high elbow" and "high punch" attacks. VP doesn't do this, they are all hp attacks. I don't think this is a big deal, and is low priority in terms of double checking the movelists for errors right now.

    Hope these answers help somewhat, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to go through the lists and raise concerns. I wish more people with the PS2 version would do the same!

    Yes, I want to reinforce Myke's sentiments. I have very little time lately to devote to double checking the lists with the PS2 version. If you find something obviously wrong like a damage value or hit/reversal level let us know about it. TIA.
     
  8. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    PS2 does have it as just P+G. I've never used this hit throw enough in the arcade to try out simply P+G, but in Ver B arcade the f+P+G works.

    I've updated the Command List to just have P+G.

    Something that I found very irritating in free training, if the [FL]K+G is a major counter you canNOT do the hit throw. I've only been able to get it to work on normal hits.

    Aww come on, but the fact that throw works if they Guard the K+G surely must be some compensation? /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

    Myke, on VFDC's Sarah list you missed adding the Rev column info for Sarah's crush tornado. The exe-blk-hit-MC columns are all shifted to the left one column.

    Thanks Yupa, this is now corrected. (Man, data entry and all nighters don't mix!) /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    No, on VP, sk is for side kicks, the conventional df+K move for most characters, and mk is most other NON-circular mid level kicks like Sarah's punt kick or dragon cannon.

    Is this delineation necessary? IMO it isn't if it's purely based on the reversal animation. This reminds me of the past debarkle we had with high attacks being mid-reversable (which they're not), that originated from the Red/Black books showing two reversal commands (high/mid) for the same reversal animation. But, I can see where this delineation would be necessary if, to use your example, certain Sabaki attacks only work against one and not the other.

    If possible, I'd like to use the same abbreviations for attack classes as VP does (HP, HK, etc) for the benefit of everyone. Yupa, let's continue this via email.

    VP uses mc for mid-level crescent kicks. (Jacky's b,f+K+G) As far as I understand, the method kbcat used to delineate between sk and mk is by the reversal animation that each generates

    FWIW, Akira, who is known as a non-crescent reversing character, can reverse Jacky's b,f+K+G. However, Lion's qcb+P Sabaki does not work against it. Grrr... sorting out these attack classes is a pain! Again, I'll appreciate your input via email on the matter. I should be getting my VF4 this coming week, after which I can do a lot of testing myself.

    Also, VFDC delineates between HE and HP for "high elbow" and "high punch" attacks. VP doesn't do this, they are all hp attacks. I don't think this is a big deal, and is low priority in terms of double checking the movelists for errors right now.

    Like I mentioned in another thread, Vanessa is the only character with the HE class. All other attacks which look like high hitting elbows are actually HP class.

    Yupa, thanks for taking the time out to proofread the stuff on here. Your, and everyone else's, help is greatly appreciated.
     
  9. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Aww come on, but the fact that throw works if they Guard the K+G surely must be some compensation?

    I didn't know that... HUZZAH! =)

    FWIW, Akira, who is known as a non-crescent reversing character, can reverse Jacky's b,f+K+G. However, Lion's qcb+P Sabaki does not work against it.

    Yuck. What type of reversal comes out when Akira reverses the b,f+K+G? Is is a sidekick reversal like when Akira reverses Sarah's u+K+G? Summers....?

    OK, so the sabaki issue will be the main point then... yeah, let's take this to email.
     
  10. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    ""throw works if they Guard the K+G surely must be some compensation? """

    Aieee yupa...CPU never did it to u?!!!
    That's how I found out!~

    Regarding the reversal animation...well..even though it hits mid, Jacky's leg comes from above...thus the animation is...errrr

    U know, high kick reversal animation
     
  11. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    Ack! I was hoping it was like a side kick and it would be over and done with.... <grumble>

    Anyway, I sent Myke a PM on this... on the virtuaproject list, if I change the rvrs column to "sk" for Jacky's b,f+K+G it will be correct, right? It's a mid-level reversal and Lion's meteor punch does not work against sk attacks. Unfortunately, it violates the animation rule I was trying to define... errr...

    Hmm... can Pai reverse Jacky's b,f+K+G... if the answer is no, this royally sucks.
     
  12. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    yes she can

    grab leg..toss JAcky to the side...yummy~

    Inashi works as well....good fun.
     
  13. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the answers.

    Myke, if you are looking to make corrections to the move lists, there are a few other minor errors/omissions in the Sarah list that I noticed. I didn't mention them earlier, since I didn't want to nitpick an excellent resource.

    The statistics for her double rise kick appear to be in the wrong columns. I.e., you show 4 for its execution, but in the notes column you list 21, 28. I assume the 4 belongs in the GRD column? Probably all the numbers in that row need to be moved over a column to the right? The notes column also lists the wrong damage for the move (10 plus 10 doesn't equal 27).

    The notes column includes mention of several moves which cause Sarah to exit her Flamingo Stance, and I assume it is desired for this to be complete. If so, the list fails to note that she exits the FS when she executes her Cut-in Punch, her Cut-in Chop, her Heel Sword, her Leg Hook Throw, or her Gatling Kick Beat. I mention this only for consistency.

    The list shows the hit level for her Double Joint Butt as M*. Now I know what this means (it doesn't do any numerical damage to crouching defenders, just causing them to rise), but I can't find any place on the list that explains this (I don't believe this is a widely known or intuitive notation). In fact, I can't find a general legend anywhere. I must be missing something obvious, so I feel a little stupid. All I could find were such things as an abbreviations FAQ, which has somewhat different notations.

    It would be nice if throw escape commands could be added to the list.

    While on the subject, here's something those of an experimental bent might find a little more interesting (I think) with regards to Sarah's moves. In playing around with Sarah in the training mode, I found all kinds of interesting move variations that she can do when her back is turned to the enemy, that I don't recall reading about. For instance, if you do her moonsault from a back turned position, she continues to face in the same direction when she lands, without turning around (unlike what she does with a normal moonsault), so she in fact ends up facing in the same direction she would have if she had moonsaulted while facing her opponent. I don't know if this is sufficiently significant to warrant an addition to the back turned section of her move list...It also suprised me that she can do all of her throws while back turned, but the directional commands for the joystick are executed as though she were facing forwards, essentially reversing them. So for instance, the command for her Lightning Smash throw is normally b+P+G; but if she is back turned, then you input f+P+G (with "f" being the direction away from her opponent) and she will immediately turn around and execute the throw (assuming all other conditions such as throw range are met). Bizarre. Her Full Spin Heel Kick is also interesting when she is back turned. She ends up doing it in the direction away from her opponent, which might make it a sort of somersaulting escape when her back is turned. I intend to experiment with it.

    Anyway, again thanks much for taking on such an onerous task so incredibly well and so willingly, just to benefit those of us who love VF gaming.
     
  14. Genie47

    Genie47 Well-Known Member

    <blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

    Aww come on, but the fact that throw works if they Guard the K+G surely must be some compensation?

    I didn't know that... HUZZAH! =)


    <hr></blockquote>

    I can confirm this. There are times I executed this throw and on slo-mo replays, I have indeed observed that the throw works when opponents guard. Rather surprising! Makes this throw a little better than the [FL]d+K,P+G variant though a tad too slow for any use.
     
  15. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Thanks once again for the corrections, Deniz.

    - The stats on the Double Rise Kick (b+P+K) have been corrected.
    - "Exit Flamingo Stance" added to the Notes of Cut-in Punch, Cut-in Chop, Heel Sword, Leg Hook Throw and Gatling Kick Beat.

    In regard to the legend, this is something I've been neglecting for a long while and will try to make one available soon. The actual Command List pages themselves are due for another slight change, to make them printer friendly and just slightly prettier overall. But these things will wait until I've completed the ver.C lists for all characters (only 3 to go!).

    As far as throw escape commands go, one only needs to know the system for escaping throws. Populating a command list with this information seems redundant to me.

    And finally, in regard to those BT moves you experimented with, I feel that level of detail belongs in a character specific FAQ or Guide.
     
  16. Deniz

    Deniz Well-Known Member

    Myke, yes, I agree with you about the backturned moves belonging in a guide/FAQ, rather than cluttering up a move list -- with (based on further testing) one exception: the [back turned] uf+P Moonsault I mentioned. Why do I say this? Well, the game told me so. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Let me explain. When Sarah's back is turned, you can execute a Moonsault in either of two ways. One is the uf+P I am advocating as a "separate" move entry (with "f" referring to the direction she is facing, away from her opponent), which she does without first turning around on the ground to face her opponent. But you can also input ub+P, which instead causes Sarah to first turn around on the ground and face her opponent, and then launch into a normal looking Moonsault, ending with another reversal of direction. Now what I find interesting is what happens when you do these two moves in the PS2 version's Command Training Mode. In this mode, each move of Sarah's can be attempted, and the game lets you know if you've done it correctly. If you go to the Moonsault entry, and turn Sarah backwards, and press ub+P, the game recognizes this turnaround version as successfully doing the Moonsault. But if you input the uf+P version, the game does not accept this as the Moonsault move! This tells me the game considers it a distinct move. Why don't I think it's just a bug in recognition? Because it is a unique event. It is the only one of the experimental moves for which this happens. E.g., if you turn her back and do f+P+G , the game considers you to have successfully done her b+P+G Lightning Knee Smash. And so on with all the other bizarre backturned variations with reversed (or "straight up") joystick commands. So something special is going on. Heck, this site's move list has separate entries for four minor versions of her Straight Lead, yet the training mode does not recognize them as separate moves; inputting any of them makes her P Punch successful. So this special backturned moonsault has more legitimate claim to an entry than they do, if you use the training mode as a judge. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif To me, this is analogous to her Moonsault from FS, which gets a separate listing. Anyway, that's just my viewpoint, and I understand yours. I will add the move to my printed copy of the move list (it has Okizeme possibilities). It's only one more line. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif No big deal for those who disagree.

    For those interested in the backturned variations of the moves, here's some more (probably useless) examples of oddities, presented solely for amusement. You can get many of her regular moves in a turnaround attack by reversing the control inputs in the same way you do with her throws. For example, inputting b+K while she is backturned will cause her to do a turnaround version of her Knee Kick. Some oddities: If you input f+P+K, you don't get the expected turnaround version of her Double Rise Kick (normally b+P+K) , but a turnaround version of her Hide Side Kick (normally P+K). Strange! And the training mode accepts this as a successful Hide Side Kick!! What happens if you just input P+K? You get a special version of her Turn Knuckle, which can't be continued into any of the Px sequences; it's sort of a turnaround P(G). Her backturned Tornado Kick has two variations. If you input uf+K+G, she does a Tornado Kick away from her opponent, and remains backturned (this is also the case with her two uf+K hop attacks -- the Step Heel/Hook Kicks). But if you instead input ub+K+G, she turns around to face her opponent, and does a Tornado Kick towards him/her.Unlike the two analogous backturned Moonsault variations, the training mode once again recognizes both of these backturned Tornado Kicks as implementation of a Tornado Kick, reinforcing my belief in the separateness of [backturned] uf+P.

    Maybe someone else will find some of this silly stuff to be of interest. For those who don't, just ignore this tripe...I had fun regardless.
     
  17. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    Oh..please continue at ur own leisure~

    Of all the newbies that arrived here..u're one of the few that has shown geniue interests in learning abt the game...unlike the many treasure hunters.

    Hope u're here for the long run.
     
  18. Adio

    Adio Well-Known Member

    I'm aware of the Moonsault variant but tell me, is the damage the same for those moves that can be performed backwards? Do they still have the same properties?
     
  19. Yupa

    Yupa Well-Known Member

    I agree with Summers... Many newbies might ignore your detailed posts Deniz because of their length, but keep digging... what you're talking about (back turned attacks) is known by many vets, but its a very useful part of the game engine, and you should know how to take advantage of it.

    I will add the extra moonsault variation to the virtuaproject movelist the next time I edit Sarah's list. I agree with Myke, however, that the other back turned variations belong in a character specific FAQ.
     
  20. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Back Turned oddities

    I think I might be able to explain these Back Turned oddities, which you can further verify or correct with PS2 training.

    When you're Back Turned, the following inputs will automatically turn you around without an attack:

    - a single tap in any direction
    - pressing G (tap or hold)

    And when you're Back Turned, you may use any of the above Turn Toward inputs to quickly face your opponent and buffer any regular attack or throw without having to wait until you're fully turned round. An example is Kage's b,b+K+G knockding down on MC which leaves him Back Turned. You can then press G~df+K+G to immediately turn around and do the Inverted Kickflip. (Note, the df is toward the opponent i.e. kage's forward direction after turning around).

    However, the above Kage example uses a separate input for the Turn Toward. But, what I'm thinking is that some attacks can be perfomed with the Turn Toward input automatically buffered with the command, but I'm going to rely on you guys with the game at home to test it further. Is the auto-turn toward buffered by the built-in G or the single directional tap, or both? Deniz has shown this with Sarah's throws while Back Turned from which you could conclude that it's either the direction, 'b', or the built-in G, (or both?) that serves as the turn toward input.

    Just on the side, a long while ago I posted how you can go about doing various things while Back Turned, and this basically involves you buffering inputs during recovery time. An example of this is can be illustrated with Kage: do a b+K to turn away, and when you're fully recovered, try to crouch dash backward (toward the opponent). You'll find that you can't and you end up turning around again to face the oppt. This time, try it again, but enter the crouch dash backward during the recovery of b+K, and if you do it right you'll succeed with a crouch dash backward. This is different to the auto-turn toward business we're trying to figure out, but I just thought I'd mention it here since it's on the topic of Back Turned properties.
     

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