Sarah's Move List

Re: Hit Throw Properties

AFAIK, if you are back turned and Sarah is in flamingo stance, there is no conventional turn toward move available. You need to G-cancel out of stance first. Sarah will merrily attack away from her opponent in the wrong direction... wee!~!~!~

Not quite. A single tap in the f, uf or df direction gives a slight movement step in that direction without turning the character around. Also, tapping u or d causes a turnaround, but it is preceded by a slight movement into/out of the screen.

When you tap u or d, I think you get a standard dodge then turnaround. If you time the joystick tap right, you should be able to get a major counter (big) dodge vs. an incoming attack. This follows logically from the way the E button worked in VF3 when you were back turned. In VF3, your character would do a standard dodge then turn toward the opponent allowing you to do any attack you wanted, the same as after a normal facing forward dodge allows.

To tie this in with the above, Sarah cannot do normal dodges when in flamingo stance. You can only move sideways with the u|d+P+K attacks. You can slide forward and remain in stance or backflip away and exit stance. Backflip is a wonderful thing IMO, as it avoids all attacks during the flip animation, although longer PPP type strings will hit with the 3rd/4th part of the combo and Sarah can be thrown out of the initial startup of the backflip, similar to being thrown out of a moonsault.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

AFAIK, if you are back turned and Sarah is in flamingo stance, there is no conventional turn toward move available.

There ARE TT attacks available to her. For instance, if memory from my testing yesterday serves me correctly, trying u+K or simply doing K results in a turnaround kick. But I am uncomfortable relying solely on memory for something I only tested briefly; I had some long tiring sessions. So I will post a "complete" list of her backturned FS moves "tonight" (more likely early morning after midnight), along with their attack effects, after I get back to my notes and finish testing some things, unless someone else beats me to it. I was going to post the info last night, but thought of a few more things I wanted to test out before doing so, and I want to avoid fragmented posts as much as possible.

You need to G-cancel out of stance first. Sarah will merrily attack away from her opponent in the wrong direction

IIRC, inputting P exits her from FS and leaves her backturned. But again, I am relying on memory. Need to get back to my notes tonight and post accurate information.

BTW, I think I figured out a rather obvious way of getting Sarah into a backturned Flamingo Stance, that is somewhat voluntary; I haven't tested it yet, but it should work. There is a maximum range for the Moonsault. If Sarah is too far away from her opponent, then when she does a Moonsault, she lands in front of him/her. So move Sarah back far enough, go into Flamingo Stance, and do a Moonsault. This should leave her in a backturned Flamingo Stance. I will be checking for sure this evening.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

I haven't sat down in free training and tested the flamingo back exposed stuff, so maybe the TT kicks do exist... that would be really good to know about. But I've never seen them. My comments are based on gameplay situations. I usually end up back exposed in flamingo because of some weird condition following a d|u+P+K attack. I've done [FL]KKK and PPPK combos that take Sarah away from the opponent. When I'm back exposed in normal stance I usually TT with a sweep or P-sidekick. (I need to practice what I preach and use the lunging knee more often.)

Here's some more flamingo news that I'm sure Adio will find interesting:
We've always assumed that you need to buffer the flamingo 270 throw ([FL]u,ub,b,db,d,df,f+P+G) into the recovery of another flamingo stance attack to get it to come out because when you tap back on the stick, Sarah does a backflip. When I was messing around vs. Jerky last Sunday, I did the 270 throw without buffering it in after another attack. Both of us were surprised, and it was my finishing move, so we saw it in replay to verify what I had done. He had whiffed a rising attack, and I was being lazy. Instead of my normal tap forward to do step-in menace to buffer the 270 throw, I just circled the stick and got the throw anyway.

I finally checked this out some more in free training this morning. You can HOLD back on the stick and Sarah won't backflip. Here's the key, you need to start at another joystick direction and then roll to back and hold it. Sarah just stands there. You can roll u>d and d>u back and forth repeatedly with no worries of Sarah doing a backflip.

This may only be ver C or Playstation specific... I've never tried this at the arcade because I assumed anytime you touched the backward direction, Sarah did a backflip.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Okay, the method I mentioned for going into a backturned FS works of course, theoretically, but it has no practical value since your opponent isn't simply going to stand there and let you do it. But if you do end up in a situation in which Sarah is backturned and in Flamingo Stance, it might be helpful to know which of her FS moves/attacks still work, and what tools you have available. Yupa essentially covered most of this, but I can expand a bit. As he indicates, if you press G, you get the Flamingo Cancel: Sarah remains backturned but exits the FS. If you press P, you end up doing a harmless Cut-in Punch in the direction away from the opponent, but this too causes Sarah to exit the FS and remain in a backturned state, and as Myke has pointed out, it does so quicker than the Guard Cancel. You can also do the same thing by executing a df+P Cut-in Chop, which is slightly slower (two frames) than the Cut-in Punch, but you can then continue (by pressing K) into the df+PK Setup Combination, which returns Sarah into a Flamingo Stance, keeping her backturned. Other harmless "attacks" in the direction away from the opponent that you can do and which also do not turn Sarah around are the u|d+P+K Side Neck Cut Sword attacks (which act as evade moves leaving Sarah off to the side), the P+K Fake, the d+K+G Low Spin Kick, the K+G Heel Sword, the f+K+G Heel Sword Slash, and the P+G Leg Hook Throw (which moves her away from her opponent). These "attacks" either leave her in a FS, or exit it, in the same way their normal versions do.

You can also do a uf+P Moonsault, which launches Sarah away from her opponent, turning her around to face him/her upon landing, while restoring the FS. As Yupa mentioned, you can also do the Step-in Menace away from the opponent (Sarah remains in FS), or the Back Roll Escape, which causes Sarah to somersault out of the FS and towards her opponent (I am not sure Yupa made that directional part clear /versus/images/icons/smile.gif)

If you try to do the Right High Kick (or its follow-up combos), or the f+K Guard Crush Sword, or the u+K Somersault Kick, you will instead simply execute a TT attack with her standard Turn Kick; and if you try to do her d+K Crush Low or df+K Cut-in Middle, you will just get her standard Turn Low Spin Kick. So she does have standard TT attacks available. I believe this covers all of her possible moves.

Getting back to the Neck Cut Slash "hit" throw discussion: although it definitely works as a backthrow, it does not appear to work as a backthrow against crouchers; however, it can work on crouchers from the front or side.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

We've always assumed that you need to buffer the flamingo 270 throw ([FL]u,ub,b,db,d,df,f+P+G) into the recovery of another flamingo stance attack to get it to come out because when you tap back on the stick, Sarah does a backflip. When I was messing around vs. Jerky last Sunday, I did the 270 throw without buffering it in after another attack.

You can HOLD back on the stick and Sarah won't backflip. Here's the key, you need to start at another joystick direction and then roll to back and hold it. Sarah just stands there. You can roll u>d and d>u back and forth repeatedly with no worries of Sarah doing a backflip.

Yupa: I've been doing this move by smoothly inputting d,db,b,ub,u,uf,f+P+G and never needed to buffer it into another move, or do anything else with the joystick (such as hold it back), and it works fine with no backflipping. Have you tried this alternative method of input?

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Yeah, either direction works. I generally (used to) suck with circular motions, and I fiddled with both variations of the 270 throw when I first started playing VF4. Starting with the up direction roll to forward is the most comfortable way for me to do it now in both drirections, but for a while I was doing it so that I was always spinning the joystick clockwise. I can counter-clockwise spin with no problem now.

I mentioned this bit about not backflipping in this thread because I don't remember seeing it mentioned before, and it's an appropriate subject in a thread detailing very specific things about command inputs for Sarah.

Heh, with my new found circular skeelz I went to use Kage a bit thinking I'd be able to finally do the shinsodan... nope. Still need to work on that one. Ah it's only been like 7 years since the move appeared in VF2... =)

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

1. I believe Sarah's Wall Attack, the f+P+K+G React Round Kick needs a "Guard Stagger" note.
2. Since the move lists distinguish M* attacks from M attacks, shouldn't they also somehow indicate those midlevel attacks that only do half damage to guarding crouchers? For Sarah, I believe these would be: df+K Middle Kick; d+P+KK Toe Kick Jack Knife; PPPb+K and PPb(or u)+PK Combo Somersault Kicks; f+P Rising Elbow; ub+K and [FS] u+K Somersault Kicks; and [FS] df+K Cut-in Middle. Edit: Also add her Pd+K Punch Sidekick when done from an open stance.
3. Something I've been wondering about: With all the emphasis on special animations, is there any reason there is no noting of which attacks stagger crouchers?

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

2. Since the move lists distinguish M* attacks from M attacks, shouldn't they also somehow indicate those midlevel attacks that only do half damage to guarding crouchers? For Sarah, I believe these would be: df+K Middle Kick; d+P+KK Toe Kick Jack Knife; PPPb+K and PPb(or u)+PK Combo Somersault Kicks; f+P Rising Elbow; ub+K and [FS] u+K Somersault Kicks; and [FS] df+K Cut-in Middle. Edit: Also add her Pd+K Punch Sidekick when done from an open stance.

Dude, there is research, and then there is overzealous nitpicking. Already there are 7 classes of hit levels -- strong high, high, special high, mid, special mid, low, special low. Most people who just pick up the game barely understand this concept. Now you want to add half damage to croucher hit levels????
#1 It's not a hit level per se
#2 It's something that should be mentioned in damage formulae (not as a hit level class)
#3 This is too much information that is not very useful and may end up being confusing to some in what is already a complex game
#4 If you really want to correct some of the information, focus on frame data errata. All the knowledge of damage points in the world won't help if you don't get the initiative to connect with moves and just end up getting interrupted.

3. Something I've been wondering about: With all the emphasis on special animations, is there any reason there is no noting of which attacks stagger crouchers?

All sidekick and elbow class moves stagger crouchers, simple enough.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Dude, there is research, and then there is overzealous nitpicking.
"Dude" is a chauvinistic assumption. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif I am not nitpicking, I am asking questions. And maybe it takes someone who is "overzealous" to do this kind of "research" and proofreading in the first place -- that may be a required tradeoff. As I've said before, it's only a game, so you have to be a bit nuts to be absorbed in it in any fashion to begin with. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Already there are 7 classes of hit levels -- strong high, high, special high, mid, special mid, low, special low. Most people who just pick up the game barely understand this concept. Now you want to add half damage to croucher hit levels????
I don't WANT to do anything. As I said, I am just asking questions and making suggestions. As you say, the game is already complex, so criticisms about complexity are moot. Anyone who isn't already put off by and can understand Evade Double Throw Escape Guard [sic] and What-Not techniques as described in the Trial mode, shouldn't have to worry about the level of detail I am addressing. If it's simplicity you want, then rather than attack my query, why not suggest we not annotate M*, L*, etc. on move lists? Just high, mid, and low levels would suffice. Especially why bother with M*, since you argue damage modifications for crouchers are not that important? And why bother with including Stomach Crumbles, Foot Crumbles, Slams, Flops, etc.? All of these could be included in FAQs. The reason is presumably that by eliminating these, you lose a certain amount of relevant information. I would argue that's what happens when you don't include information about half damage to crouching defenders ("relevant" is a relative term). For the same reason, I really don't want to see M*, Slams, Crumbles, etc., eliminated. And further, I am not saying that a new hit level is required; only that the data be somehow provided. A new hit level is just one way of doing that, and it seems the easiest way to me...

#1 It's not a hit level per se
No less so than M* I would think. To reiterate, I am not suggesting it has to be made a hit level, only that the information be conveyed somehow. BTW, if you research some older VF2 FAQs, you'll find that many of them did distinguish these types of attacks in their move lists with a special hit level, using symbols like (M). So my inquiry has history behind it.
#2 It's something that should be mentioned in damage formulae (not as a hit level class)
Fine. Again, all I am suggesting is the information be conveyed, not necessarily how it be conveyed.
#3 This is too much information that is not very useful and may end up being confusing to some in what is already a complex game
"Useful" depends on the user. Some people think better graphics in a video game is not very useful; others find it imperative. There will be many different types of users for the Command Lists, and many different versions of "useful." Look, I am already confused by Slams ( I still don't understand them), but I am not suggesting they be removed from the lists. Confusion is often the first sign of learning, and it's a motivator for those of us who have a natural curiosity. One of the fascinations with VF4 is its complexity. But anyone put off by complexity can ignore all of this stuff and just focus on the basics. That's what makes VF4 so great. If a Command List can provide an in-depth level of information for those who seek it, while still being accessible for those who just want specifics, then it will be a great one.
#4 If you really want to correct some of the information, focus on frame data errata. All the knowledge of damage points in the world won't help if you don't get the initiative to connect with moves and just end up getting interrupted.
And if you really want someone to help, don't discourage them by belittling their efforts. Doing what you suggest would turn me into a mere proofreader. By examining the effects of moves, such as damage, reversal levels, etc., I am having fun and learning about the game, while also providing some kind of assistance in helping the site to be a better one. As an example, spending time trying to reverse various moves has improved my reversal skills tremendously, by providing concomitant practice, and has greatly improved my confidence. I very much appreciate the help you gave in clarifying some of my concerns in the Kage errata thread, and I learned a lot just by posting the kind of information I did, especially from those I was wrong on. There's that adage about us learning best from our mistakes, and I am not afraid to make some that I can learn from. Furthermore, the best way to learn about what moves interrupt your attacks is from experience, not Command Lists. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
All sidekick and elbow class moves stagger crouchers, simple enough.
I respect your knowledge of the game greatly, but I think you are wrong if you are implying only these stagger. For instance, Sarah's P+K attack staggers, the first strike of her b+P+K staggers, and her b+K staggers. I don't think these are sidekicks or elbows -- unless you use circular reasoning and define "sidekick class" as those kicks that stagger crouchers, but that tells me nothing. How am I supposed to know what is a sidekick class move? Should I know Sarah's df+K is not a sidekick? I don't think it staggers, but I am wrong about so many things, perhaps this is another. And that's why the information would be helpful.

The focus on frame data is an important one, and I will do it as well. But this reflects your interests; others may be interested in other things, and as you already noticed in the Lion errata thread, there are those like Jason Cha who seem to claim that the type of systemic prooofreading you are suggesting is itself genuine nitpicking. So who do I listen too? An obvious point: If Myke or Yupa object to any line of inquiry, they can ignore it, or ask me to stop. Hell, Myke can even delete the stuff if it gets excessive...

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

All sidekick and elbow class moves stagger crouchers, simple enough.

I'm finding that "sidekick" has become a very ambiguous term in VF. I don't have the time or inclination to get into details now... maybe later, but Sarah's sidekick is a special case for sure. It does NOT stagger crouching opponents. There is no red stagger flash and the animation is a normal hit animation as far as I can tell. Compare it to Sarah's P-sidekick combo to see what most other sidekicks do when they hit a crouching opponent.

Because of this and also because moves like Sarah's b+K, which is nothing like a "sidekick" IMO, can stagger crouchers, I plan on listing the moves that stagger (generate the red hit light and can be struggled out of) in the stagger column of the VP movelists.

Re: base damage modifiers
I think it's more appropriate to add a note in the legend (seperate table at virtuaproject) regarding the reversal bonus as well as noting that mid level moves do half damage to defending crouchers. (But I think there are some exceptions to the mid level moves damage too.) The general FAQ talks about this IIRC, and that's really where the info should be found. I don't think damage modifiers should be written out line for line in the movelists.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Generally...the way I see it...it is indeed good to point out that so and so moves will cause such a situation in certain cases...like beatknuckle staggering a crouching defender....instead of floating....

but a bigger part of me feels that sometimes...it is usually best left to player to discover the certain 'special' ability of the moves for themselves.

It's like, if we spell em all out, what's left for the player? Part of the fun is learning new stuff n going ' oh..never knew abt that'.

I for one am not big on spoon feeding. That's the theme of the day for me /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Because of this and also because moves like Sarah's b+K, which is nothing like a "sidekick" IMO, can stagger crouchers, I plan on listing the moves that stagger (generate the red hit light and can be struggled out of) in the stagger column of the VP movelists.
I am glad to hear that. What experts may not realize is that newbies have different needs from lists than they do. I get amused when they tell ME what newbies want/need. I am the non-expert, and a user of the lists. I can tell you what information I find important. Frankly, at the stage I am at right now, I have a greater need to know which moves stagger than what are their precise frame rates (information which I think is more intimidating/confusing to the newbie than hit levels/damage) or which moves cause a Flop. In fact, just knowing which moves knockdown is more important to me than knowing if there is a Slam, etc. I still wish someone would explain clearly what exactly a Slam does that makes it so special and how you recognize one. I have searched the forum and read old posts, but they just leave me confused on this topic. The best I can make out is that it's a Slam if you can't QR/TR it, but I am not certain.

BTW Yupa, to help you with your research, here are the Sarah moves that I think stagger crouchers (other than those that have the Guard Stagger property): b+K; f+P; d+KK; [FS] df+K; the first hit from b+P+K (actually, I am not totally sure about this one, as the attack happens so fast -- I need to check further in slow motion); P+K; Pd+K. If I missed any that anybody notices, I would appreciate the info. I am willing to do the research; it's just a matter of someone being willing to put it into a Command List.

I should also ask, how exacly do I go about verifying frame rates anyway? The best I can do is compare the VP and VFDC lists to find disparities; but that's hardly verification. If both lists copied the same wrong info, where does that leave us? If anyone [FeixaQ?] can provide me with a better way to do this, I will gladly do so.

Re: base damage modifiers
I think it's more appropriate to add a note in the legend (seperate table at virtuaproject) regarding the reversal bonus as well as noting that mid level moves do half damage to defending crouchers. (But I think there are some exceptions to the mid level moves damage too.) The general FAQ talks about this IIRC, and that's really where the info should be found. I don't think damage modifiers should be written out line for line in the movelists.
There are quite a few midlevel attacks that are not halved vs. defending crouchers. Two posts ago, I listed all of Sarah's attacks that have this halving property, as far as I could determine. The rest don't, and that's quite a bit of midlevel attacks. So I am not sure what formulae FeixaQ is alluding to.

I think a simple notational device to indicate the damage modifiers to crouchers in the notes column is fine. IIRC, I believe the notation g5 or g1/2 is used on various lists, for the halved damage. The notational device gx is I think used to indicate M* attacks, and that seems more reasonable frankly than creating a whole attack level called M*.

In any case, I will continue to try to help. I am just sorry I seem to piss off some people when I try to do so.

Edited to correct spelling/grammatical errors.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

"Dude" is a chauvinistic assumption.

Ah, I had assumed that you were male from your handle "Deniz". But I guess it could be Denise, perhaps? /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

Especially why bother with M*, since you argue damage modifications for crouchers are not that important?

Um, therein lies the potential confusion. M* and half-damage mid-level moves against crouchers are two different things. M* refers to moves that will hit crouching non-defenders but not crouching blockers (will only stand them up). Putting "half damage against crouchers" would make sense in the notes column but not as a separate hit level class since those moves are still technically M and not M*.
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I think what Summers mentioned about spoonfeeding is what I'm trying to get at. Theory is definitely good; indeed, understanding the VF game mechanics is crucial in learning the game. Learning about frame data (at least, for the key moves...) helps players improve on the initiative game, and how to counter with the appropriate move after blocking.

But, I know of a fair number of people in VF2/3/4 that spend more time trying to calculate how much damage a certain move or sequence could theoretically do, or what Move X or Move Y can be theoretically used for... but when they actually play, they can't execute at all. And even after they lose, they say "but if I had gotten so-and-so combo or move to hit, I would have gotten x points of damage and won the round or match".

The negative effect of spoonfeeding and information overdose is that players who are starting to learn the game seriously (as opposed to casual players) may be focusing on the wrong aspects -- such as half-damage vs crouchers -- instead of mastering key max-damage combos (combos after KD, combos after MC float, etc.) and learning more about flowcharts and initiative.

So IMHO, what might perhaps be more fruitful endeavors are: (a) drawing up simple flowcharts for characters as a starting guide, (b) testing out and listing max damage combos for characters (based on open/close stance, normal vs MC, etc.), (c) transcribing counter tables for blocked moves, or (d) starting a VF club in your region so other players can congregate and trade tips and tricks, etc. ( (b) and (c) can be achieved via looking at such as Daily VF4. )

Any of the above would (IMHO, of course) potentially contribute more to the VFDC repository of data and to improving the overall skill level of Western VF players (in your region, as well as more generally).

BUT, you raise a good point in that what one person may deem important frequently differs from another. Heck, maybe part of the allure of VF to someone just starting out is understanding the mathematical formulae for damage calculations, and that spurs the player on to keep playing the game. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

So, if I came across somewhat harsh in my previous post, my apologies. It's not directed at you in particular -- I guess what I'm frustrated about is that the Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese BBSes have players posting about various setups, flowcharts, how to nullify certain guessing games using ETEG, etc., whereas VFDC has a lot of "how do I obtain such-and-such item for my Kumite character" and "how do I do Akira's knee"-type posts.
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P.S. To test frame data, go to free training mode and record a move. Have that move blocked, and see if it's throw counterable (-8f or worse), P-counterable (-12f for most characters, -11f for Aoi/Pai/Sarah, -13f for Wolf/Jeff, -14f for DS Vanessa), elbow-counterable (generally -14f) or sidekick counterable (generally -16f). Of course, testing *all* moves for frame errata is too time consuming, so the best way to check for errors is to start by looking at Daily VF4's errata page and seeing if VP or VFDC have all the errors corrected for those moves (Kage's dodge attack being -13f is one of those).

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Well, as a (relative) newbie myself, I find frame data a lot more useful than specific damage notes. I'd rather know whether my move is elbow counterable or not than whether it's going to deal the full damage or not, since elbow counterable will cause considerably more pain than not doing the extra 15 damage /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Some sobering news: Not noted on the list is that a fully charged Crush Tornado will sober Shun, as will a b+K+G Spin Edge Kick. On the other hand, the list shows that a Heel Sword Slash sobers Shun; I believe this is incorrect.

 

Re: Hit Throw Properties

Myke, since you have not commented on it, amidst all the discussion you may have missed my two earlier remarks about correcting the Sabaki note for her P+K Hide Side Kick:
1. It also works as a Sabaki vs. HE, which is not listed.
2. You use the notation ME in the note, when I think you mean EL.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Deniz, if you have any future Sober corrections, please indicate if it's 1 or 2 DP.

I would have, except I thought it was agreed to earlier in the thread that the -1/-2 DP notes are in error, and that the DP lost is actually percentage based; hence something that is listed as -2 DP might take off only 1 DP at a certain level or 3 DP at another level, and something listed as 1 DP might take off 2 DP if Shun is drunk enough. So what base level of Shun DPs do you want me to work from when making these calculations? Should I work them with Shun at 20 DP?

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think -1DP is really -10% DP, -2DP is -20% DP, rounded down to nearest whole number. So as long as you're 14DP or less, it should be -1 or -2. I'll ask my friend who's a hardcore Shun player to confirm...

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

That would make sense and make things easier. Hope it's correct. But I think you meant you would need to have Shun at 10 DP or more. 10% of 10 is 1, and 20% of 10 is 2. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

Edited to add last two sentences.