Sarah's Move List

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Actually, that's a good question. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but here's my guess:

0-9DP:
-1DP = -1
-2DP = -2

10-14DP:
-1DP = -1
-2DP = -2

15-19DP:
-1DP = -1
-2DP = -3

20-24DP:
-1DP = -2
-2DP = -4

25-29DP:
-1DP = -2
-2DP = -5

... etc.?

I'm not sure about the 0-9DP portion, though.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

The first base 0-9DP (or 0-14DP?) should be used. That is, the range of DPs where no modifiers are in effect.

The 0-9 DP range won't work. -1DP and -2DP are the same within the 1-9 DP range (nothing happens at 0 DP). FeixaQ has it almost right. The symbol "-nDP" (where n is an integer) stands for a loss of n% DP (provided Shun has at least 1 DP), rounded down to the next lowest whole number, but never below one. So "-1 DP" would be a loss of 1 DP when Shun has 1 to 19 DP (as FeixaQ's chart indicates), but "-2 DP" indicates a 1 DP loss in the 1 to 9 range as well, not 2 DP. 20% of 9 is 1.8, which rounds down to 1. So 10 or more DP are required.

Which brings me to the next Sarah errata. While testing Shun stuff earlier "today," much to my surprise I discovered that the back version of Sarah's Hand Hold Neck Cut sobers Shun for -3DP (30%)! Note that the front/side version has no sobering effect at all.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Based on the discussion in the Pai Command List errata thread, these Sarah kick attacks which are listed as MK are actually SK: df+K; u+K+G; f+K+G; b+K; P+K; b+P+K; Pd+K; d+KK; [FS] df+K; (u|d) P+K+G. This corrects the VP list as well.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

The following Sarah attacks hit low, but recover high:

df+KKb+K; [FS] d+K; [FS] d+K+G; [FS] KKd+K.

Note: [FS] means Flamingo Stance.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

The P+K Hide Side Kick should be updated to show that it is a Sabaki vs SK attacks.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

1. Based on my tests showing that they hit a crouching opponent trying to interrupt them with a d+P/d+K attack, I think the following three moves hit special high and should have their hit levels changed from H to H*: df+PK Setup Combination; uf+K+G Tornado Kick; [FL]K Right High Kick.
2. The front version of the Hand Hold Neck Cut should have a note saying it can also be done from the side.
3. Here are the actual damage ranges I've observed from direct testing of Sarah's ranged damage attacks:

uf+K+G Tornado Kick: 20~30 (damage increases with distance).
K+G Spin Kick: 20~30 (damage increases with distance).
K+G Running Knee: 20~28 (damage decreases with distance). Try as I may, I can't get Sarah to make an actual 30 damage Running Knee, so I have to conclude that 28 is the correct maximum. If a 30 ever happens, I will report it.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

1. The "Slam" notes for the b+K+G Spin Edge Kick and the ub+K+G Spin Heel Sword are wrong. The notes should be replaced by "Slam on Float"; further, the moves need a "Flop" note.
2. The [Flamingo Stance] f+K+G Heel Sword Slash and the (asc) P Elbow hopping attack are each missing a "Slam on Float" note.
3. The following moves need a Crouch Stagger note: Pd+K Punch Side Kick; f+P Rising Elbow; d+KK Jack Knife Side Kick; b+K Switch Kick; P+K Hide Side Kick; [Flamingo Stance] df+K Cut-in Middle. The b+P+K Double Rise Kick deserves a special Crouch Stagger note, since each of its two hits separately cause a Crouch Stagger. It is possible to be hit by either one alone. This also means the frame advantage data for one of the two hits is missing.
4. The Guard Stagger note for the fully charged version of the (while standing) K+G Crush Tornado should be changed to a High Guard Stagger note. It does not stagger a low guarding defender, but instead knocks him/her down.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Actually, the [FL] f+K+G causes a Flop and Slam on Float.

I know Myke; but the Flop is already mentioned in the Command List notes, so the only change needed is to add the "Slam on Float" note I mentioned. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

How did you test the (asc) P in a float?

Hitting a jumping opponent in the air is the same as hitting a floating opponent for purposes of determining the ability to IR. So I programmed the CPU Sarah to do the (asc) P attack and I then hopped next to her with my character, timing it so that she would hit me in the air. Then I observed what happened when I got slammed to the ground.

How is it possible to be hit by the first hit of the b+P+K and not the second? I'm just curious.

I have to go by memory for now, until I get back to the game. As I recall, the interaction of the angle at which Sarah attacks (when not directly facing her opponent) and the effects of a stagger can cause the defender to be 'bounced' at an angle that causes the second hit to barely miss. I can test it further either tonight or tomorrow evening to see if there is anything else involved that I forgot or didn't notice. But it did happen, and not just once.

Well, there's only one way to guard a mid attack, and that's with a standing guard, so mentioning "High" would be redundant, and thus I think "Guard Stagger" is sufficient enough in this case.

On the contrary; if the attack were a high attack, then I agree that the term Guard Stagger would be sufficient, since a high attack cannot hit a croucher, and a Stagger requires a hit. But what should the note be for a midlevel attack (like Kage's f+P+K+G Jumping Kick) that staggers BOTH crouching defenders and standing defenders (but not non-defenders)? You need to reserve the term Guard Stagger for such moves -- it implies that not only is a standing defender staggered without damage, but that when a crouching defender is hit by the move, then he/she is staggered too. High Guard Stagger, on the other hand, differentiates those attacks that stagger only a standing defender but not a crouching defender hit by the attack. Also, look at this another way: what would the note be for an attack that only staggers crouching defenders and no one else? Presumably Crouch Guard (or Low Guard) Stagger, which by your logic would make no sense, since a midlevel attack (you allege) can't be guarded low. But, as I see it, the phrases "high guard" and "crouch (or low) guard" refer to the opponent's status (high guarding or low guarding) when he/she is contacted by the attack, not whether the attack itself can be guarded or not. Further, it was you who invented the term "High Guard Stagger" to describe the effects of Akira's d+P+G Break Guard and f+P+G Break Stance, and I was just following your intended usage (as I understood it), which appears to contradict what you are now saying. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif If you recheck the Akira errata thread, you'll recall that I asked about the term "Guard Stagger": "I have no problem in understanding the use of the term for an attack that staggers standing defenders but knocks down/floats crouching defenders instead of staggering them. But is it appropriate for an attack like the Break Guard?" You answered: "I think it is, especially with the word "High" prefixing it since it only staggers if they're guarding (high)." Isn't that equivalent to what I am now saying? By your current argument, why would you need to use "High Guard Stagger" for Akira's f+P+G Break Stance, since it can only be guarded in one way -- namely high? Well, I think you were right then, and wrong now. Further, I don't quite agree with your statement anyway. There are some midlevel attacks that are halved in damage when they hit a low guarding opponent (an effect you have indicated you don't wish to note on the list). This halving of damage is the result of being guarded against, albeit only partially. So I see this as another way some midlevel attacks can be guarded against. I think the term High Guard Stagger is very much the right one for this and similar attacks.

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Myke, getting back to your questions:

How is it possible to be hit by the first hit of the b+P+K and not the second? I'm just curious.
Okay, I just did it again several times. Here was the setup: Her opponent was Jacky, who was in a crouching position. They were in closed stance, and Sarah was close to the maximum distance she could be from Jacky and still have the first hit connect. Sarah was in the 1P position (i.e., on the left side of the screen). The first hit was by her left foot and it knocked Jacky back. Her right foot went up to do the second hit and fell short. It didn't seem to extend far since it was retracted into the lifted leg position of her Flamingo Stance (which ends the move). Also, if this means anything, after the move, Sarah's head was tilted towards Jacky, who was slightly deeper into the screen (to her "left'' side) then she was.

How did you test the (asc) P in a float?
My answer to this question prompted a thought. Shouldn't the Slam on Float notes more properly be Slam on Air Hit notes, which includes floats, but is more general? If the note was originally translated from a Japanese source, is that a possible interpretation/translation of the text?

Well, there's only one way to guard a mid attack, and that's with a standing guard, so mentioning "High" would be redundant, and thus I think "Guard Stagger" is sufficient enough in this case.
Rather than argue with your decision as I did, perhaps I should simply ask: How do you wish to distinguish between attacks that stagger only standing defenders and those attacks which stagger only standing or crouching defenders (and not non-defenders)?

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Myke: I would suggest adding the term MC Stagger to cover (obviously) those moves that Stagger during an MC. These terms should be sufficient. There are still some rare oddities, but they can be easily handled if you allow for overlap. For instance, on a normal hit, Kage's f+P+K Reverse Leap Frog wall attack staggers everyone except for a standing non-defender (not sure about an MC, since I haven't checked that yet). In this case, I would suggest simply listing both a Guard Stagger and a Crouch Stagger note, unless you have a better idea.

BTW, in my most recent comments, I'd already been using these terms, except that I've been using Crouch Guard Stagger instead of Low Guard Stagger, so only those staggers will need conversion from my notes. I'd even already begun to mention those Guard Stagger notes for midlevel attacks that need to be changed to High Guard Stagger, so much of the work has been already done, and I will continue doing this.

Another thought for simplifying the notes: Nutlog mentioned earlier in the thread that he thought all Force Crouch attacks also Slam on Float. So far, he seems to be right. So I would suggest your mentioning this in the legend, and then stop including Slam on Float (or Slam on Air Hit as it will now be known) notes for Force Crouch moves; they need only be included (when applicable) for moves other than Force Crouch ones. You could also delete any current Slam on Float notes from Force Crouch moves (I will gladly point them out). Then if we do encounter a Force Crouch move that does not Slam on Air Hit, you would simply include a note saying it "Does not Slam on Air Hit." What do you think?

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Just realized that there might be a need for a Back Stagger note too. I don't know much about back staggers yet. Need to do more research. I will be looking into them within the next few days. Is a Back Crumble a form of Back Stagger?

 

Re: Sarah Command List updates

Myke: A few additional suggestions/thoughts to help keep things simple. I don't think it's necessary to use "High Guard Stagger" for high attacks. As I implied before, for high attacks, the term "Guard Stagger" should be sufficient, since they obviously whiff vs. a croucher and there can thus be no ambiguity with the phrase. Do you agree?

Also, a note simply saying "Staggers" should be sufficient for any attack that staggers if, and only if, it hits (i.e., a high attack that staggers standing non-defenders only, or a midlevel attack that staggers everyone except for a standing defender). And common sense should be used to deal with other situations. So for a high attack that staggers both standing defenders and non-defenders (or a midlevel attack that staggers all defenders and non-defenders), the note could say "Staggers on Hit or Guard." Any disagreements?