Sega doing what they do best -- pissing people off...

Discussion in 'Junky's Jungle' started by GaijinPunch, Jul 4, 2002.

  1. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    My lord... has it come to this? Every Japanese VF4'ers worst nightmare -- no data transfers from VF4 to VF4 Evo. From the updated VF.net announcements page:

    "Notice about VF4 Evoluion: The latest rev in teh series - Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution - will be released this summer for your enjoyment. Please see the notices below.

    VF4 Access Cards:
    Cards for use with VF4 cannot be used with VF4Evo. However, unused cards can be used. Card cannot be updated through VF4Evo, in other words - no data transfers.

    VF.Net:
    VF.net for VF4Evo will begin in August. Currently, those using the PC version of VF.net will be able to access, just as before, and will require no extra payments.

    VF4Evo Present Service:
    Currently those using iMode VF.net (it said J-sky VF.net when I accessed via J-Phone) can enter there name in a drawing to win VF4 Evo presents.
    Presents will vary according to number fighting history.
    Check the link at the top page for more details."

    What does this mean? Means that kick-ass players like Chibita & Kyasao start out at 10-kyu, like everyone else. Really fair, no? GRRRR!!!
     
  2. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    This is really not a big deal. Chibita and Kyasao aren't going to care. It's a new game with new stats and a new level playing field. Every season of battle.net for Starcraft, etc starts witha reset of all the stats and the best players rise to the top again and again. Not a big deal.

    cheers,
     
  3. vf4akira

    vf4akira Well-Known Member

    Does this mean kyasao's gonna boycott evo? I'm too lazy to find the thread, but it was mentioned that he wouldn't play Evo if the stats couldn't be transferred...
     
  4. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    This is a huge deal. Being that you don't pay 100 yen every time you lose a game, I could see how you would think diifferently. This has been a hot topic on Kyasao's BBS since Evo was even rumored about. I don't recall him saying he's quit playing Evo if the stats weren't transferrable, but there will definitely be a lot of people that will certainly be pissed off - some enough to not avidly playing anymore. I can't log into his board from where I am now -- some weird proxy setting. I'll check when I get home.

    No, this is not a new game. It's an upgrade, and beyond some cosmetics, not a really massive one either. think of it as VF4.01. the changes between VF4 & EVO are minute compared to thsoe of VF->VF2 VF2->VF3, and VF3->VF4, but definitely more noticeable than those to VF4verB to VF4VerC.

    Still don't think so? Send me 85 cents for ever loss for every character you have on the PS2 version, and then send me your memory card, still knowing you'd likely have more playing in arcades rather than the home version.
     
  5. HighKing

    HighKing Well-Known Member

    They dish out all that yen to build their records and characters and now they have to start over /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif , that must be a bitch.
     
  6. CreeD

    CreeD Well-Known Member

    I don't see the problem with this either. It really is the only fair thing to do.

    Kyasao and Chibita and company got their kickass win rates by using and playing against characters who will be changed in the next version. They played under a different set of rules. Who's to say chibita could keep winning 9 out of 10 times with the changes made to lion? Or maybe one of the new guys is such a powerhouse that he gives many other characters fits. The point is he would not have exactly the same number of wins or win rate on EVO, it's just too different. He might have more wins, or he might not even like the game enough to play 30 or 50 matches a day. His stats just wouldn't be a fair or accurate estimate. Not to mention anyone who picks the new guys as their primary characters will have to fight uphill against all the existing characters who have their spots on VF.net.

    As for all this talk about money, wtf? The cards themselves are cheap. The games are expensive by many arcade standards, but in <font color="red"> every game in every arcade in the world you have lost your quarters if you don't win.</font color> Neither Chibita or kyasao puts money in to "improve their ranking" as highking suggests. They put it in because it's fun to play the frigging game. Recognition is nice, but if these players are truly hot shit they will continue to get recognition in EVO.

    If anything people will be much more interested in these players- instead of knowing week after week that kyasao is in the top ten, same as he's been since forever, they will have the drama and excitement of seeing whether their heros can hack it under the new rules.
     
  7. hiro

    hiro Well-Known Member

    Well, I am not sure if you ever played VF4 in Japan using a card, but let me tell you this; people DO play games to raise their rankings, even Chibita. Since for those who play in US, it does not matter how many ties you win or loses, or what your rank is, it might be hard to understand the situation. People have really strived for higher ranks. Also, some really tried to have more winning numbers and winning ratio. Since it is just an upgrade, I would imagine they should let players use the same cards.
    Some said that Chibita may not win at the same winning rate, right? These are the kind of people who don't know anything about this game. This kind of upgrade doesn't change best players winning rate, etc. People who would be affected are the people who don't know the game and may be dependent on some easy moves which work for beginners.
    What I want to say is that it is not fair since people who played the game really a lot have to discard their records. I'm sure the top people will come back to the highest rankings, but that is not my point. My point is their effort and struggle. (Those who say it is fair that everyone start again miss this point, since the best players in Ver C outwin other players in Evo anyways.) People here on this board can say these things because either they never play in Japan or they were never good to care about ranking system.
     
  8. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Okay, you've covered two players. I put another 100 that are close to their skill level, and another few hundred that are at least remotely close. What about the 19,500 VF4 players that have to start IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE as these guys. Let's say you get to 2-dan relatively quickly, which isn't that hard, and so does someone in the top 500 -- you're losing your 2-dan points to someone that should very well be ranked ahead of you. Sure they will be in due time, but not for a while.

    Point 2: Why didn't they start the stats over for for Ver B, or Ver. C? There were plenty of differences there would affected rankings. Go ask any Shun, including me, who dropped 4-dan's the first week Ver. C. came out. I put up with it then, I could do it now. Even SHU, who didn't lose rank (as he was already Ha-ou by the time Ver. C came out) said his victory ratio dropped noticeably, and he's the best Shun around. As for Chibita, I think he'd do much better against in Evo, as Lion has some wicked shit!

    Evo is really not that different. It is for some moves for some characters, and will take some getting used to, but take out the graphics & whatnot, and I'd call it version E or F.

    I'm not speaking on behalf of me --there are loads of other guys around here that will be extremely pissed. People have been inquiring about this for months. I'll check out the posts on Kyasao's BBS tonight and post an overall 'feeling' from our Japanese counterparts.

    Oh, yeah -- I've got 6 spheres that will be pissed away as well.... doesn't help the situation.
     
  9. SummAh

    SummAh Well-Known Member

    I actually discussed this in irc ages ago
    and I'm with u...
    it's a pisser of a piss poor decision...

    but apparently..since it is a new system..thus the change
     
  10. American_Pai

    American_Pai Well-Known Member

    Losing your rank is lame if that's all you play the game for but if you play the game for competition it should be a great thing. You won't have to go search for a same level dan opponent because they will be everywhere. There will be mystery when you challenge some Joe Blow with a 10 kyu rank who isn't famous like Chibita or Kyasao because you just won't know at first. This would be a really good time for a foreigner to go to Japan to play VF or maybe they could actually bring VFnet to other countries like Korea.

    It also doesn't take that many matches to rank up anyway. Dudes like Mukki Akira will probably at least be in the higher dan ranks in a month if they play frequently. However I can see why people don't want to start over because keeping a rank is stressful. I don't like losing a match against the CPU in Kumite so I damn sure would hate losing in the arcade where it really counts. VFnet ups the ante on the game by making more extreme. You can feel like the shit when you win or you feel like shit when lose (mutiply those feelings x5 with VFnet). Therefore it could a more stressful situation than it's worth. If I played in Japan I'd seriously consider not playing with a card because I'm sure it could be a serious hassle especially when it sorta meaningless anyway. Does 10 kyu appropriately describe Chibita's skills? Hell no. Card or no card the dude is sick and still would get a rep. He wouldn't have a Speed Racer Lion but he'd still beat your ass down and that's what truly matters. Let your game truly reflect your skills.
     
  11. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    I dunno, Hiro, I think I'm going to have to disagree. I'm going to compare this to the only other games I have played competitively with much effort and dedication. There are millions who play Starcraft online to compete for the ladder rankings. They compete with loads of effort to raise their rank, etc. Well, how is it that they can accept resets to their ranking? It's not a big deal, it's part of the game. I can totally understand the effort involved - ever played Diablo2? Blizzard 'upgraded' and patched the game to no end, and many times people who had characters that relied on a certain skill were rendered useless. Blizzard's comment to their initial complaints: tough, it's our game and we're fixing it. Sega is doing what seems to be the same thing. Will they lose players because of it? Sure, some. Will they gain new players because of it? Sure, some. Some who may even be great players and become famous a la Chapita. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

    To reply to Gaijin as well, I think that VF4E is far more than an upgrade. Graphics aside, how is this new version any different than the leap from VF1 to VF2, VF2 to VF3, etc. Really, like those leaps, we have two new characters, new moves for existing characters, changes to properties of existing moves, removal of moves, etc. This is much more, imo, than VF4.1. It's a much larger change to the game than VF2.1 was to 2 and from VF4B to C. Consider it an expansion pack (for those who play PC games) - and with it comes changes to the entire system, including VF.net.

    And, about the money loss. As CreeD put it, when we lose in the arcade here, we lose our money too.

    cheers,
     
  12. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Considering I'm the only one here that's actually played the game, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not a new game -- hence it would be VF5. I think I nailed the head on the door when I said it would be VF4 Ver. E or F. 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 3 to 4 have a TOTALLY different feel -- they're also like 3-5 years apart in terms of releases.

    Here's my top few reasons why Sega has made an awful choice.

    1: VF4 will not have been out for a year before Evo comes out. You're pissing away your ranking of a year. Who would've thought? If it was 3 years, that's another story

    2: As American Pai said, keeping a ranking is stressful, and a lot of hardwork. Getting anyting above 10-dan requires not only skill but a little luck I must say. There were Hero's & 10-dan duking it out last night for HOURS, and nobody got their champion ranking. The guys that did it once have to do it again. That sucks.

    3: It's technically feasible. You can even use UNUSED VF4 cards. It's the same data and uses the same chip -- at the unvelining in June, they were coming off like, "Well, it's a totally new system" -- poppycock.

    4: Nobody has hit Emporer.

    Also keep in mind -- until you've spent a year going to the arcades, playing people you don't know, etc, etc, you probably can't truly laothe this phenomenon.
     
  13. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Sega doing what they do best -- pissing *you* off...

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Considering I'm the only one here that's actually played the game, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not a new game -- hence it would be VF5. I think I nailed the head on the door when I said it would be VF4 Ver. E or F. 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 3 to 4 have a TOTALLY different feel -- they're also like 3-5 years apart in terms of releases.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Arg...sure, yes, they were 3-5 years apart. And yes, they have a different feel. My point was that it's far bigger a change than VF2.1 which was your comparison. Anyway, whatever, it's a change, a big one at that, and not one to justify VF5.

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

    3: It's technically feasible. You can even use UNUSED VF4 cards. It's the same data and uses the same chip -- at the unvelining in June, they were coming off like, "Well, it's a totally new system" -- poppycock.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's technically feasible? How do you know it's technically feasible? Same card? So. You think banks have kept the same system for their ABMs for the past 10 years? Funny, I've never changed my card. Just because the card and chip are the same has nothing to do with whether the system they're using has changed. Maybe the new system saves data in a new way - hence old data not compatible - or maybe it reads the data in a new way. Shit, there could be a million things different.


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    Also keep in mind -- until you've spent a year going to the arcades, playing people you don't know, etc, etc, you probably can't truly laothe this phenomenon.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ok, let's get one thing straight here. What the fuck do you think I am? Some 16 year old geek sittin' around with my controllers and PS2 version of VF4? I've probably been playing VF in the arcade a hell of a lot longer than you - and I know what's it's like to play in the arcade! Holy. Shit.
    And no, I have not played in Japan with the VF.net system - but that my friend doesn't matter. I know what it's like to lose my money in the arcade, I know what it's like to compete for rankings in other games, I know what it's like to have rankings reset, I know what it's like to play people I don't know.

    Look, just because you're in Japan - don't get all high and mighty on us, ok? It will do you no good. At this point, your opinion is that Sega has pissed *you* off. Well, tough shit. Suck it up and get out there and rank up again. If you enjoy playing this game, then it shouldn't matter to you at all. You're going to go out there, play against people, win, lose, and rank up up in the process. If the competition is abundant and it's quality competition then who gives a shit about your rank? In my opinion, the rank of the player matters not half as much as their winning percentage anyway.

    cheers,
     
  14. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    Re: Sega doing what they do best -- pissing *you* off...

    Dude - chill. I think you took the last comment wrong. I doubt ANYONE here has not shoveled coins in an arcade. Fuck...I've been doing it since I was 10 or so. So, you have a record of all your wins at the arcade? No -- you don't. So hence, my comment you, and likely nobody else here is going to take a massive stance on this like I am.

    The fact remains -- you've not played Evo yet, so how can you say "it's a big change" and big enough to warrant a new card system if you've only seen a handful of videos? Or even that it's "far bigger than VF2.1"? As I said in my original post when I first played at the beta test, it is in fact NOT like a new game, as a lot of people stated. There are some changes, but there have been in Ver B & C as well.

    2: Technically feasible, in that sense means do-able. I looked at the VF.net interface -- it's the exact same for Evo as it is for Ver. C. Items go in the same places, etc. IE --no technical hurdles. Fuck, I'm not a programmer and I could write a perl script to do the transfer. The items, I see, as there's a new item receiving system, but why not the rank? You only need to move three variables -- level, wins, and losses. That's not hard. If you can make a game as advanced as VF4, you should be able to technically make the data transfer in your sleep.

    I've only met one person at the arcades that it doesn't really bother him. Everyone else I know that has any rank above 3-dan or so is pretty put out. I guess we'll find out soon.

    Basically, I see one of two things happening here. Sega making more money b/c a lot of people are going to be starting all of their characters from scratch, or losing a lot, b/c people are just not going to put their hearts into like they have before. Sega's done a lot of dumb shit in the past -- it's no secret. I rank this one up there.
     
  15. Neo

    Neo Well-Known Member

    Re: Sega doing what they do best -- pissing *you* off...

    Hi there GP, I think I'll add my view here too seeing as I have played VF4 ver C in Tokyo,Japan

    1/ My personal view thinking only about myself, I'm not really too bothered because I was only 5th dan when I left but SEGA THIS IS A FUCKING SHIT IDEA!!!!!

    2/ In a way the2 new characters are a kind of reason to
    reset the ranks but......again not fair. I feel so sorry for Chibita if he doesn't make ÂÂc’é / emperor(Japan) / high king (US) by August

    3/ Chibita hs only 1000ish loses but this is £500 /$800
    spent on making his Lion what it is.......most people also play more than 1 character. More money and annoyance at the loss.

    4/ SEGA SHOULD LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THEGAME AND MAKE THEIR MONEY, THEY COULD BE MAKING A BIG MISTAKE!!!!

    What is Kyasao's BBS GP? I wanna read it thanks!!
     
  16. Neo

    Neo Well-Known Member

    and just wnted to add that SEGA will wreck me and my friends dreams if they erase the data from ver C

    My friend is ŽOÂÂçƒJÆ’Q and almost all the VF players in Tokyo know him. He left as 10th Dan and very nearly became Haou . We both have a dream to become Haou on ver C

    Unfortunately I can't return to Japan until Setember so
    guess I will be playing Evo if it is any good.

    SEGA THIS SUCKS BIGTIME!!!!! /versus/images/icons/frown.gif(
     
  17. Neo

    Neo Well-Known Member

    Oh something else any news about theJ-SKY VF.NET?? It is what I was using last time.......
     
  18. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    They say that J-Sky VF.net will be working, although I'm not sure if it will be available immediately. EVO VF.NET only used iMode at the beta test. They also say VF.NET for PC will work, and supposedly will start when the game is out.

    Here's Kyasao's BBS:
    http://www2.gol.com/users/yac/

    I actually made a post, but only got a few responses (it's not as busy as it used to be). One guy did have quit a legitimate complaint. He's more worried rather than losing his rank, that the Ver. C to Evo transition goes smoothly. It's not a change that can be done over the network, and apparantly Sega's charging for the full games -- no discount if you own Ver. C. It would suck if half the game centers had Ver. C and the other half Evo.
     
  19. GaijinPunch

    GaijinPunch Well-Known Member

    One last thing -- it's apparantly not a drawing to win rare VF4Evo items, although you have to 'apply' which made me think it was more of a contest. Apprantly everyone gets something, but they say it depends on your current battle history. So many people applied, the bombed the server. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  20. PlugAndChug

    PlugAndChug Well-Known Member

    Re: Sega doing what they do best -- pissing *you* off...

    I think one of the reasons why Gajin and many others that play it at Japan have is that they have to start all over. Some people might not have problems, but some will. Think about it, it's the fact that many people that played the game spent TONS of money and time on working to get the records that they have. ALL gone in an instant. The thought of having all that hard work and money gone could be troublesome to some of the players.
     

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