Several Staple Combos

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by ice-9, Oct 27, 1999.

  1. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    As soon as I receive Godeater's tools (a big thanks Godeater!!!), I will proceed to capture several staple combos. A poster at Blast City started a thread about combos, and so I took the opportunity to list what I thought were essential combos for each Step. I'm going to repost my message here--please take a quick scan and tell me if you agree if the combos I listed belong. These will be the first combos I capture.

    <font size=1>Quote:</font>
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    Maybe I can contribute to this discussion somewhat. stop, as evil samurai suggested, what you are asking for is beyond the scope of any mere mortal.
    Below, what I have included instead is a few "staple" combos--that is, these are combos that every player of the character must know about and be able to use. I have also divided these combos into three levels: Step 1, 2, and 3. The higher the Step, the more advanced the player. I assume that beginners are Step 1 players and thus are incapable of complex button inputs.

    Some of the combos are not "true" combos in the sense that they are inescapable but are more like sequences with combo elements (it takes a bit of yomi to know if the combo will work). Also, some require certain conditions to work. Further, because not all characters are combo based, I will also include "combos" that result from multi-link throws, hit throws, etc.

    And finally, one disclaimer--these combos are only meant to give you an idea; there are many, many other "must know" combos and combo techniques that has to be learned in addition to the ones I listed below.

    Akira
    S1: D,f+P+K -> P -> f,f,f+P -> d/f+P or D,f+P+K -> DLC
    S2: d+P+G or f+P+G break guard -> f,f+K -> P(G) -> DLC
    S3: P+K+G, b,d/f+P+K -> b+P

    Jacky
    S1: f+K -> d/b+K,K -> u+P
    S2: P+K -> P -> u/b+K (must be in / \ stance)
    S3: b+K+G -> u/b+K OTB (on the bounce)

    Sarah
    S1: f+P,K -> u+P
    S2: d+P+K,K -> F+P,P,P,K
    S3: D,f+K,K -> F+P,P,u+P -> d,U+P

    Lau
    S1: D/F+P,P MC (major counter) -> P,P,P,d+K
    S2: D/F+P, d/f+P+K MC -> b,b+P, d+P -> P,P,P,d+K
    S3: u+P -> b,b+P OTB -> d+P, P,P,P,d+K

    Pai
    S1: d/f+P,P,f+P -> P,P,P,d+K
    S2: b,d+P+G -> K -> P -> f,f+P,K
    S3: f+P+K -> any throw

    Wolf
    S1: b,f+P+K -> f+K -> d,U+P
    S2: b,f+P+K MC -> P -> b,f+P+K -> b,f+K+G
    S3: f+P+G -> d/f+P+G -> b+P -> f+K OTB -> d+K -> b,f+P+K OTB

    Jeffry
    S1: f+K -> b+K -> u+P
    S2: d/f,d/f+P -> f,f+P,P -> u+P
    S3: f+K MC -> P -> f+K -> u+P

    Kage-Maru
    S1: b+P+G -> b+K+G -> f,d,d/f+P
    S2: b+P+G -> D,f+K -> P,P,b+P,K
    S3: b+P+G -> knee -> P,P,K -> running K

    Shun Di
    S1: b,d/f+P -> b,f+P,P,P -> d/f+K+G
    S2: d/f+P+G -> d/f,f+P, b+P -> b,d/f+P -> d+P+K,K,K
    S3: d/f+P+G -> d/f,f+P -> D/F+P,P+K -> d+P+K,K,K

    Lion
    S1: u+K,K -> d,U+P
    S2: D,f+P MC -> b,b+K -> P+K -> f+P -> d+K
    S3: P+G -> E -> f+P+E -> f,f+K -> b,b+K -> P+K -> P -> f,f+K OTB -> d/f+P

    Taka-arashi
    S1: f+K -> f,f+P -> d+K OTB
    S2: d/f,d/f+P MC -> d/f,d/f+P -> D/F+P+K -> d+K OTB
    S3: f+P mC (minor counter) -> f,b+P+G

    Aoi
    S1: D,f+P+G -> d/f+P+G
    S2: P+K MC -> HCB+P+G -> b,d+P+G -> u,d+P+G
    S3: uramawari -> F+P+K -> P+K -> d+K+G OTB

    Phew! I think that's all the characters. Hope this helps somewhat.

    <hr width=100%>

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I would assume that the S3 wolf combo has a b+P after the push?

    Also, you might want to replace or add a S2 or S3 combo for Jeff ending in a pick up. S2 = d/f,d/f+P, f+K, d+P+G S3 = d/f,d/f+P, f+P+K, d+P+G

    Akira's S2 should really be the SPoD, especially since a higher lev Akira should really have full command of both of his 3 hits. Have the S3 showing use of P(G) and buffering. S3 = d+P+G or f+P+G, f,f+K, P(G), P(G), d/f,d/f+P or b,f,f+P+K

    For Sarah, the S3 should illustrate the speed of the punches. Possibly S3 = knee, P,P,P, P,P,u+P,b+K or S3 = K,P, P,P,P, P,d+K, u+P (downslope req'd)
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    well, does anyone else think that the S2&3 combos are much easier for some characters than for others? for example, jacky's S2 P+K, P, u/b+K requires much less finger dexterity than lau's up-knife super up-knife bb+P etc. both D/F+P,d/f+P+K and bb+P etc require practice on their own; being able to recongnize an MC and then get the bb+P commands in without a mistake takes even more time.

    i'd consider Pai's f+P+K -> any throw S2. for S3, how about d/f+P+G, K, G, P+G, CD, ST [stumble throw follow-up of choice]?

    Lion's S1 isn't really worth the time to tape or download. how about just bb+K, P+K, ff+KK, or if that's too hard: [float starter of choice] and either f+PP or ff+KK?

    you might want to replace one of jeff's S1 or 2 with f+K, ff+PP, u+P.

    good list, though. things to try next time i'm near a dc.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    i have to object to the knee ppk slide being on that list...for the reasons i gave before. it really should be considered DC only (at least as far as it being staple). of course since most of us play on the DC, my point may be moot, but i have to point it out, anyway.

    another thing...suprised so few people point out the speed difference between the DC and the arcade. if anyone remembers, VF2 saturn ran at a much much faster rate of play than its arcade counterpart. VF3 dc has this problem, and i find myself having a real hard time adjusting from the arcade to the DC...
     
  5. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Anonymous, thanks for the pointing out the missing b+P (I always forget stuff like that!). You should sign off your post so I know whom I'm speaking to.

    Also, you might want to replace or add a S2 or S3 combo for Jeff ending in a pick up. S2 = d/f,d/f+P, f+K, d+P+G S3 = d/f,d/f+P, f+P+K, d+P+G

    That is a great idea, and I am leaning towards the latter, since that has greater R.O. power.

    Akira's S2 should really be the SPoD, especially since a higher lev Akira should really have full command of both of his 3 hits. Have the S3 showing use of P(G) and buffering. S3 = d+P+G or f+P+G, f,f+K, P(G), P(G), d/f,d/f+P or b,f,f+P+K

    Well, I've always believed that SPODing is strictly for more advanced players. It's not that it's necessarily hard to execute (although I would wager that it is, especially on a MC), it is quite difficult to use consistently in a real match.

    As for your P(G) buffered combos, the former is good but not really all that useful/significant since Akira has other combos that take the same damage. I don't really like the latter since P(G) -> P(G) -> bodycheck would actually take less damage than a simple deep bodycheck.

    I was, however, considering a b,d+P+G -> knee -> f,f+K -> P(G) -> DLC

    Would this be a more fitting Akira S3 combo?

    For Sarah, the S3 should illustrate the speed of the punches. Possibly S3 = knee, P,P,P, P,P,u+P,b+K or S3 = K,P, P,P,P, P,d+K, u+P (downslope req'd)

    I'm not sure these are possible in the arcade (never tried them yet) but I do know they are impossible on the Dreamcast. In the translation, after the sixth air hit, characters artificially drop straight down from a float.

    Since most people will be playing Dreamcast versions of VF3tb, I am a little hesitant in including arcade only combos.

    Also, instead of P,P,u+P,b+K you must mean P,P,P,b+K instead. And I am fairly certain that your second combo (if it works), the final stomp could be easily escaped.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  6. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    well, does anyone else think that the S2&3 combos are much easier for some characters than for others? for example, jacky's S2 P+K, P, u/b+K requires much less finger dexterity than lau's up-knife super up-knife bb+P etc. both D/F+P,d/f+P+K and bb+P etc require practice on their own; being able to recongnize an MC and then get the bb+P commands in without a mistake takes even more time.

    I definitely agree, but I think there's really no way around it. Some characters are simply not combo based.

    The challenge for Jacky's S2 combo is the stance requirement. Speaking of Jacky, I was wondering, would knee MC -> F+P,P,f+P,P,d+K be a more appropriate S3 level combo?

    i'd consider Pai's f+P+K -> any throw S2. for S3, how about d/f+P+G, K, G, P+G, CD, ST [stumble throw follow-up of choice]?

    Hmmm, but this situation is really highly "iffy"...

    Lion's S1 isn't really worth the time to tape or download. how about just bb+K, P+K, ff+KK, or if that's too hard: [float starter of choice] and either f+PP or ff+KK?

    Heh heh, I was actually tempted not to include anything. If there are any Lion Step 1 players reading this--do you find the b,b+K -> P+K motion difficult to do?

    you might want to replace one of jeff's S1 or 2 with f+K, ff+PP, u+P.

    I am adamant on the Jeff S1 and S2 combos I listed above, primarily because f+K -> b+K -> u+P is so guaranteed even if the knee hits normally or if there is slight terrain variation. Basically, the shoshinnsha doesn't have to think and can rely on this combo. kenka upper takes more damage than the knee and is actually more difficult to counter--that is why I consider KU a better starter than knee even though the button input is slightly more difficult (CD motion vs f). Also, for the f,f+P,P to hit after knee the knee must be a mC. KU -> f,f+P,P connects every time on flat ground.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  7. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    The speed is the same

    i have to object to the knee ppk slide being on that list...for the reasons i gave before. it really should be considered DC only (at least as far as it being staple). of course since most of us play on the DC, my point may be moot, but i have to point it out, anyway.

    You do have a good point, it's just that I can't really think of any other combo that is really difficult to do and that Kage needs. The current S3 combo does tons of damage and is relatively difficult to do (even on DC), and that's the main reason why I thought it was appropriate.

    another thing...suprised so few people point out the speed difference between the DC and the arcade. if anyone remembers, VF2 saturn ran at a much much faster rate of play than its arcade counterpart. VF3 dc has this problem, and i find myself having a real hard time adjusting from the arcade to the DC...

    Rich, I am positive that there is no difference in "speed" between arcade and Dreamcast. Think about it from a technical perspective--the game runs by frames flipping by 60 times every second right? Each movement is defined by the number of frames of animation the developers gave it. We know that the DC version still runs at 60 fps, the same as the arcade--this means that if the DC was "sped up" each movement must be proportionately consist of less frames.

    Think about it as a fraction:

    <u>frames</u>
    second

    We know the above is a constant 60. We know that speed can be measured in seconds. Thus, for the above to still equal 60, and if we still want to increase seconds, frames must decrease proportionately.

    The thing is, it would be impossible to decrease all the frames of movement exactly proportionately, especially since you can't have a fraction of a frame (well, ignore interlacing for a moment). It's very difficult to have a new frame stat proportionately less than 11 frames (the elbow) am I right?

    Decreasing the number of frames per movement will lead to massive gameplay inconsistencies; I am probably going to bet that Genki didn't dare mess around with the game's speed or number of frames.

    The perceived speed difference you are experiencing is most probably a visual illusion. I had brought this up before with some of the New Yorkers, and they laughed at me /images/icons/frown.gif, but it really does happen.

    The closer you sit to the screen, the faster things seem to move. You take a few steps backwards, and your eyes are able to take everything in and judge movement more easily. Hence things appear slower.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: The speed is the same

    but knee, PPK, slide is not "really difficult" at all =)

    also, have you ever seen VFKids? if you check that out, you'll understand what i mean by speed difference. it even SAYS ON THE BOX "20% faster than VF2!!!!!". but the game still runs on the VF2 engine, and all the exe-hit-rec times are intact...it's just FASTER. everything is relative; the clock is running on normal time...but the game engine is just sped up.

    i'm sorry to say, the new yorkers were right to laugh; it's there. it's been there in VF2 saturn, VFKids, and now it's in VF3tb DC.
     
  9. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: The speed is the same

    Rich, I can't think of a Kage combo that's really difficult and necessary, and you'll be surprised by how many players still can't do that combo. If you wish, I can always stick that extra P(G) in there, but that would make it go from "quite difficult to do in arcade" to "impossible to do in arcade on flat ground".

    I kinda liked the idea that all the staple combos I've listed above work on both arcade and Dreamcast, and I've purposely tried to maintain this consistency. Also, as these are supposed "staple" combos, I don't want them to have conditions that are too strict or rare, and that's why I have not included wall combos.

    To address your speed issue, VFK is a different game than VF2. They are not meant to be the same game and there are definitely massive differences between the two, especially in the properties of movement. I'm not sure if I should be the one laughing here. If the box said "20% faster than VF Kidz arcade" perhaps then I would reconsider. Also, if they bothered to advertise that with VFK, why not do the same for the VF2 translation from arcade to Saturn?

    There is no such thing as a speed difference between VF3tb arcade and Dreamcast. Think through constant 60 fps again. The "seconds" denominator is NOT based on some random clock on the screen telling relative time. Otherwise, "60 frames per second" would be advertised as "60 frames per second according to that timer we made up that appears on your TV monitor while you're playing the game". Remember that "frames per second" measures smoothness of motion, not speed.

    It's a mathematical certainty--keeping a constant fps, you can't increase speed without decreasing the number of frames.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  10. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: The speed is not the same

    I have to agree with Rich on this one, Ice. I play the arcade and the DC almost everyday. The difference is very apparent. It's exactly like how Rich describes it, everything is relative.

    Kbcat, do you have an explanation for this that's more technical?

    All I can say is that there is indeed a difference.

    Cheers,

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    As for Jacky, i would really like to see Knee MC, d+P,Senbon, Kickflip done, cuz personaly i can't do it ^^; (in the mook it says this is doable on both arcade and dc). This perhaps can make Jacky's S3 looks a bit more respectable. As for the beatknuckle stuff, i think no matter what you say =) , it is S1 cuz the command is so simple. Yes it may be hard for beginner to look at the stance but if i am really a beginner, i will just do it anyway, hey i got 50% chance of connecting with the satisfying kickflip (^^)v

    I think a more appropriate S2 will be Knee, d+P, d/b+P, K
    Cuz at S2 the players should know about dash buffering. And IIRC this also require the right stance (reverse to kickflip)

    The Pai's KG throw after d/f+P+G is guranteed if you do it right. Just do the standard small dash, K, ff+P,K then it is not iffy at all. Besides this is a good setup to train your oppt to tt attack after d/f+P+G, in hope of your missing on KG throw, where then you can do a sidekick counter hit, PPPK combo.
     
  12. Nutlog

    Nutlog Well-Known Member

    Sorry Ice. The anon post (that wasn't rich's) was from me. Both of the Sarah combos work on the DC. The first because the second punch in the 3 punch sets doesn't connect, making the flipkick the sixth hit in the float. I use u+P on the last punch to make it easier, since the u+P is 2 frames faster than regular P.

    The pounce on the second is iffy if you are going straight downhill on Pai's stage, because of the range of Sarah's pounce being so lousy, but on any more gentle slope, it should come out fine and you should land on their toes.
     
  13. kbcat

    kbcat Well-Known Member

    Re: The speed is the same

    Kbcat, do you have an explanation for this that's more technical?

    Well... First off I have to agree that the Arcade seems slower and the DC faster. Reasons for this speed up? Who knows maybe the arcade is really running at 59.6 fps, and the DC is running at 60.7 fps... Close enough that they are both "60 fps" but with a noticable difference in the two...

    Most likely it has something to do with the interlacing on a TV screen. The DC's out put to a TV is probably 60 fields per second... meaning every other line of each frame is written out blending adjacent frames together (e.g. frame 1 and 2 are blended to form a picture, then frame 2 and 3 are blended to form a picture, and so on and so forth)... It will still seem fluid like a non-interlaced monitor (as is used in the arcades--where each frame is displayed fully)... but over all it will have a different feel that one would pick up on... however that strange feeling should go away if you play VF3DC through a VGA box on a VGA monitor--which shouldn't be interlaced...

    Just a thought... whether it's correct or not.. I don't know... are they both blitting out frames at exactly 60fps... probably not... and that is evidenced by slowdown in the DC at times... like I said, just a thought.


    cheers,

    <font face="Arial, Helvetica" color="#3366ff">kbcat</font>
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: The speed is the same

    knee ppk slide is pretty well impossible on flat ground in the arcade anyway. i've only been able to do it up to sarah...it ain't ever going to happen to akira, and no way will it happen to jeff.

    no, VFK is not the same as VF2, but VFK shares all the same exe-hit-rec times as VF2, and as i said before...again, everything is relative. Also, VFK arcade is the same game as on the saturn; VFK arcade ran on the ST-V.

    i don't think any frame/second arguments apply in this case. f'rinstance look at the slow-mo replays. the game is still displaying images at 60fps, but the action is slowed down. i don't know of any technical term for it; action in VF2, VFK and VF3 is just simply...sped up.

    if you come to this toronto thing in january, we can have the arcade and dc units right next to eachother, and we can try to do a series of long animations like giant swings and kage's f,f+P+K+G at the same time...i'll bet you a dollar that the DC version will be more than a bit noticeably ahead of the arcade when the animations are complete.

    btw, when was the last time you played tb arcade? hell, when was the last time ANY of you played tb arcade?! or even 3ob?!

    shame there's such a schism between the arcade-priveledged camps and the DC-only camps when it comes to how we think of tb, not just graphics wise, but also in the game engine.
     
  15. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    That's exactly what I mean

    Most likely it has something to do with the interlacing on a TV screen. The DC's out put to a TV is probably 60 fields per second... meaning every other line of each frame is written out blending adjacent frames together (e.g. frame 1 and 2 are blended to form a picture, then frame 2 and 3 are blended to form a picture, and so on and so forth)... It will still seem fluid like a non-interlaced monitor (as is used in the arcades--where each frame is displayed fully)... but over all it will have a different feel that one would pick up on... however that strange feeling should go away if you play VF3DC through a VGA box on a VGA monitor--which shouldn't be interlaced...

    KBCat is right--when it comes to the any console being outputted to a TV, we should be talking about fields per second rather than frames per second. Still, that doesn't change my argument all that much.

    However, what KBCat stated actually supports what I am saying. I am not denying the fact that the Dreamcast version appears to be faster. It's definitely relative, but I think relative to our eyes, and not to how the developers defined time. This is why I think the perceived speed difference rests in our eyes and not the engine itself.

    Everyone who went to the NYG had a taste of what VF3tb looked like on a VGA box. It moved exactly the same at 60 fps.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: That's exactly what I mean

    you don't speak for everyone, jeff.

    and if the GS on the arcade finishes before the DC GS animation, that'll just be our eyes? Uh....!
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: That's exactly what I mean

    after, not before. oop.
     
  18. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: The speed is the same

    no, VFK is not the same as VF2, but VFK shares all the same exe-hit-rec times as VF2, and as i said before...again, everything is relative.

    The first time this was brought up, I mentioned how I would have "perhaps" reconsidered the notion that VFK Saturn was 20% faster than the arcade. The reason for this is that we have no way of knowing what exactly those marketing heads at SOA meant by "20% faster". And if anyone was following SOA's marketing department's exploits during the Saturn days, I think they would support my assertion that not everyone there is competent.

    Does VFK's moves share the same stats as VF2? I wouldn't know as I never played the game. So I will state my reservations and leave it at that.

    Also, VFK arcade is the same game as on the saturn; VFK arcade ran on the ST-V.

    Ahh, but the box did not advertise "20% faster than ST-V version of VF Kidz", it stated "20% faster than VF2" (Saturn, arcade, or what also remains unclear).

    i don't think any frame/second arguments apply in this case. f'rinstance look at the slow-mo replays. the game is still displaying images at 60fps, but the action is slowed down.

    Are you sure slow-mo replays run at 60 fps? Either way, during slow motion, gameplay no longer holds. Developers can alter the ratio without worrying how it will affect exe-hit-rec stats.

    if you come to this toronto thing in january, we can have the arcade and dc units right next to eachother, and we can try to do a series of long animations like giant swings and kage's f,f+P+K+G at the same time...i'll bet you a dollar that the DC version will be more than a bit noticeably ahead of the arcade when the animations are complete.

    I will be more than happpy to concede my mistake if I am wrong...I competely understand how the game can appear to have different speeds, but I've always attributed that to an optical trick than anything because every time I try to think it through technically, it just doesn't make sense. I suppose a side by side comparison ought to do the trick...but even then...it would only be a fair test if the size of the monitor and TV is the same. Otherwise, how can we be sure that the difference is not due to how our eyes perceive depth and speed?

    I've taken a psychology course where we studied how our eyes perceive objects, and how some things appear to be the way they are even when they are not. I suppose this has influenced my position on this issue a lot.

    btw, when was the last time you played tb arcade? hell, when was the last time ANY of you played tb arcade?! or even 3ob?!

    shame there's such a schism between the arcade-priveledged camps and the DC-only camps when it comes to how we think of tb, not just graphics wise, but also in the game engine.


    Not in a very long time (too long), but somehow I doubt it'll change my opinion, because I clearly remember my initial impressions of the arcade after returning to Singapore last year during the Christmas break after a couple months of VF3tb on the Dreamcast. I actually felt that the arcade appeared to run faster.

    I totally agree with you that it's relative, but again, I think the relativity is in our eyes and not the conversion.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  19. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    Re: That's exactly what I mean

    I apologize. It seemed to move at 60 fps to me.

    As I said above, I will be more than happy to concede my mistake if a side by side comparison proves otherwise.

    ice-9 | Sennin
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This thread seems to have drifted off topic.

    Akira S1 has DLC and Sarah's is elbow knee????
    Perhaps a better ( nicer looking/damage ) Sarah S1 is f+K,f+Pb+K,u+P.
    Good damage plus easy to do, no need for counter/slope/weight.

    How about some takeoff kicks/landing kick combos? Aoi's takeoff kick MC,landing kick, d+K+G is pretty damaging ( for Aoi S1 ). Perhaps also for those not good at combos like Jacky - takeoff/landing/b,f+K+G. These combos are frequently very damaging ( DLC or autoknife enders ) and not THAT hard to get sometimes. I'm sure you guys know lots more of them.

    Hmm,anyone notice Wolf's S1,S2, and S3 combos are all about the same damage?

    Wen
     

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