Shldrm Flow Chart

So I have painstakingly written down Goh's options after a Shoulder Ram hit and visualized the data. It's nice to look at actually.

Have fun. (Click the pic.)

 

NICE

 

Good chart. Theres couple things I'd like to comment on.

Firstly: I don't understand TEG as opponent reaction. Somebody does this? I think even successfully performing it is questionable.
You cant be thrown out of stagger by anything except Gohs catch, so doing TE is kinda pointless, so it only matters if its active when the stagger ends. If you struggle out of stagger you cant do TEG because theres nothing to buffer it into, it would turn into a throw attempt. So the only theoretical place to buffer it is the end of the stagger, and then you couldnt struggle and would eat certain attacks guaranteed from the stagger. Should ETEG be in place of this? (edit: you already have it I just noticed)

second: low punch could propably filed under the same category as abare, unless you specially want to do that LP-sabaki. Maybe there could be a separate case of throwclash and no-clash abare attacks?

Anyways, nice job.

ps. I dont understand why Matteo trolls.. He seems normal person when hes talking to me in the shoutbox..

 

if they abare after shoulder ram, like 2p
46 K+G is a special high and will take a huge amt of dmg as well.

shoulder ram into basara on crouching is my fav flowchart though once u conditioned them to crouch. It feels and looks crazy
( :

 

I think you all very much for the input. Also big thanks to Erdraug who sent me another option select via PM.

I noticed that in some places the chart is incomplete and not properly structured. A new version is already in the works thanks to your input and some new ideas I have.

 

fuzzy works on stagger-->Most opponents who worry about throw on stagger will struggle and recover ducking the throw, but wouldn't it stand to reason if you can duck the throw then you can stand in time to block a mid, thus a fuzzy gaurd?

I just know on shoulder, when playing decent or better opponents, they adjust to duck before i can throw the staggered (stagger recovered) opponent.

Just my 2 cents.


BTW, leonard, the flow chart looks really good

 

Thank you all for the feedback again.

Here are some more thoughts on this yet seemingly simple nitaku situation presented to us (Goh's shdlrm hits) but which, in fact, is much more complicated to entangle:

• Unbeknownst to me, option select is generally understood in the fighting scene as something else having nothing to do with what the diagram shows. Thanks for pointing me to it, Myke. (Also see here.)
• As Manji and Myke have posted above, TEG is non-sense as it will always result in a failed throw animation if the Goh players chooses not to throw at all. If this option should remain in the diagram at all, it be called TE. Many players not overly familiar with this particular trap situation tend to TE rather than do anything else - a still popular choice in actual matches, it seems.
• Now here is why I think Fuzzy Guard does work if you get hit by Goh's shldrm: Due to the distance the Goh player has to bridge to get into throw range after the shldrm has hit, there is enough time for the opponent to react accordingly. So the nitaku situation isn't immediate mid or immediate throw. It is rather immediate mid or delayed throw giving the opponent enough time to block the mid and duck the throw in time. Thus, in a reversed sense, he can block any incoming mid while at the same time, seeing the Goh player closing the gap, to respond properly to the grab throw attempt.

 

++ could propably be used against ETEG even though its only a semicircular, it should track well with a proper timing (ETEG command makes opponent track if the evade in ETEG is a failed one) unless opponent does an empty evade and even then its a 50/50 chance. Also works against G and several non-ducking abare attacks. (not to mention the damage is hideous on a counterhit)

Problem may be doing too early so it will whiff from the stagger if opponent doesnt struggle. This is always a problem with staggers because the timing of things changes depending on how much the opponent recovers from the stagger. (Im reminded of the old trick with Laus + -> , if you dont struggle at all, the standing palm will whiff, if you struggle perfectly, its not even guaranteed. Theres a lot of variance). Opponent may make you whiff things by intentionally not struggling..

In general throwing after stagger works best against people who recover well from the stagger. If they have a habit of fuzzying after stagger recovery, you can usually stagger them again (shoulder or df+P) to reset the situation. In general I dont think true fuzzy is possible after stagger recovery, because the timing can be so different depending on the amount of stagger recovery. Its hard to get the exact timing for real fuzzy and it will propably be just a generic ducking.

Personally, if I play with Goh, I tend to try after the stagger because it requires the opponent to struggle perfectly if they struggle at all. Otherwise I get a combo. Once the opponent is conditioned to recover perfectly from the stagger (the standing palm is safe on block so theres little risk) I continue to guessing games about either throwing them or punishing alternatives. Very few people Ive met even make it as far as figuring an alternative to block after recovering from the stagger. But this is more about the application of the flowchart.

 

if they 2p abare of shoulder ram.
66 P CH is ur safest tool. ( this is something i noticed that alot of good goh players use off either shoulder ram stag or k stag. Seen it used many times by Gauche5 )
46 K+G will take away alot of life with bounce

 

• 
  That definition of option select in the link is very wrong as well. It has nothing to do with the CPU 'choosing the right outcome'. And it's also not exclusively ambiguous either. A safe jump or negative edge command throw in ST is not ambiguous, it's very deliberate. ETTEG protects against high escaped throws, linear attacks, and half circular attacks, all at the same time, the CPU doesn't choose which one is best in that situation, everything is covered already.
  
  Whenever the SRK Wiki gets restored I'll be putting up my massive ST writeup on option selects in the Wiki so look for it.

 

As far as I know its the correct one. ETTEG isnt an option select and afaik negative edge isnt either. Dunno what safe jump refers to.

ARE in VF4 was an option select...Im pretty sure there were others in older VFs but I cant recall them.

 

ETEG is an option select....

 

I think the link described option selects correctly, but did a bit of a poor job describing it in a comprehensive way.

And Manji, evade throw escapes is a textbook example of an option select. You input an evade and a throw escape, what you will actually get depends on what the opponent does. If he throws you will throw escape, if he attacks you will instead get a successful evade. So you only one thing, but got two completely different outcomes depending on what the opponent did (this is what that text meant by the computer choosing the "right" outcome).

For people still confused, here's an example of something that is NOT an option select: A sabaki. Even though it beats both attacks and throws, it can not be considered an option select since no matter what it beats, you will have always gotten out the same thing (the sabaki attack).

So an option select is not so much about covering a lot of options (which the name might imply) as it is a technical term for what I described above, you input one thing but can get two (or more) different things come out depending on what the opponent did.

Hopefully I didn't just further confuse anyone with this poorly written text, it's hard to describe it in writing compared to showing it in the game.

 

k.

I agree with Jeneric, and I was wrong about ETTEG. I guess I wasnt thinking rationally.

 

Safe jump is when you knock down the opponent and by inputting 7p on the 1 player side in the right time frame it will enable an option select of:

-Pouncing if opppnent lays there
-Jumping backwards if 2nd player tech rolls

Both work together, but as far as I know the timming is still a mystery to me. If anyone is proficent at this please post up as I have been dying to know.

Thanks

 

I've never been able to get it to work in VF5, it was simple to do in 4 too so either it's not in VF5 or i'm just n00b.

EDIT: In VF4 you had to input the exact moment your opponent hit the floor otherwise it didn't work, like I said though doesn't seem to work in VF5.

 

"Safe jump" refers to a technique in 2D fighters.

 

Thats what I know, Im not exactly sure what it is about. Doing a jump and inputting an attack with b at the end at the correct distance and timing right before landing so that when you land, you block if they do a wakeup DP etc, or hit them if they try something else? Did I get it right?

As for Kaminari_Oyajis version of 'safe pounce', I didnt think it needs any timing at all, just input it as soon as you've recovered from the attack you knocked them down with.. Im not sure because I don't use this, generally I only do pounces when they are guaranteed.

EDIT: To return to Empnovas post,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has nothing to do with the CPU 'choosing the right outcome'.</div></div> Thats exactly what it is about, although you are right and the wiki is wrong in that the player input is not ambiguous (Im not sure of semantics here) but rather very deliberate specific input.

ps. That wiki in Leonards link could do with some rewriting.

 

The word "ambiguous" actually fits the bill quite well since you're doing the one input to get different results. They don't mean that the player didn't mean to do it or that it isn't a deliberate thing to do, they're meaning the technical nature of the input.

Think about it, when you do an ETE you don't know what the outcome will be, hence the ETE is an ambiguous input and the CPU is actually deciding the outcome depending on what the opponent does.