should vfx be simpler

Discussion in 'The Vault' started by Guest, Oct 29, 2000.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    given the current very bad state of sega's finances
    and that very complicated dont sell as well it seems.
    (more people play tekken atleast in the us.)
    and in japan, maybe by this point, tekken has made as much money as vf?
    plus the other fighting games, soul caliber, capcom vs snk etc. being somewhat less deep in terms of gameplay (not complexity, those games have plenty of moves and characters etc)

    do you think the next vf should just be a simpler game?
    the change of names from numbers to an X seems to indicate this. kind of like how there was street fighter 2 and street fighter EX.

    maybe this will be a dumbed down vf? actually i hope so, if i hope for anything, maybe making a complicated VF4 will just be a bad buisiness decision?

    note: even if a complicated vf does come out, and does get popular in japan, that may still not be enough for sega to post a profit or pay back its debt.

    maybe they should just be smart and make a dumbed down vf (but still pretty) that will have a good chance of selling everywhere and see if they can make a profit and keep themselves alive.
  2. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Please dear god - No.

    That is why VF is so good. I could care less if the majority fruitnuts want to play Tekken or SF or whatever - I'm still going to play VF and those that I enjoy sparring with will be playing it too, I can assure you. The last I want is a VF where some button masher can beat me after I've spent time developing skills. That's a piss off. (mind you, it still happens to us all just not as often as it does in Tekken)


    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    actually my post was a little rushed, just to get the main idea out.
    ofcourse, i think everyone here, including me, wants a complicated vf.
    but what if it means you wont be able to find competition.
    id rather have a slightly dumbed down vf that i can play with people than a complicated one that i only play on my own.
    would you rather have a complicated vf that noone plays in the arcade? i dont.

    look at how well vf2 and vf3 did. noone plays them much, in the usa. (maybe a bit initially, but that was just cause of looks, and theres no gaurantee the competition is going to be as ugly in comparision, this time around. infact, i think any play vf got in america was due to its looks. to a newbie, it doesnt seem that deep i guess. they button mash and get a simple kick and a simple punch. not like xmen where they try different buttons and get some cool stuff) if they have a choice between tekken and vf they will probably pick tekken.
    maybe in japan they like vf also and wouldnt switch it for tekken but would for something like dead or alive or sc (simpler than vf, but not as bad as tekken)
    so anyway, the above paragraph means that its unlikely that if vf stays this complex it wont get much play when compared to the others.

    now, i dont mean a completely dumbed down version, but just enough to keep newbies playing. somehow. hmm... any ideas for this? maybe make it more button masher friendly but keep the high level stuff too. so if you are a total idiot like a us gamer, you can atleast do stuff. which will make them want to continue playing, so i will have someone to play against.
    back in the vf2 days (when there was more competition around me), if i saw a newbie type guy, i would purposefully let him try stuff out and do some damage, lose a round, just to prolong it, so that when i finally beat him, he wont give up - hed think he had a chance and continue playing. instead of him leaving and me just having to play the comp alone.

    hrm... yeah i would definetly want it a little dumbed down.
    i think the depth of it is part of the turn off to its popularity. so the only way to keep it popular is to dumb it down a bit. as i said, they could keep ALL the old moves and techniques from vf3tb, all the old characters, but just make it more playable for a person who is a newbie.
    arent you guys tired of lack of competition? most of you seem to know each other and play each other, but there are definetly a bunch of lone vfers who have noone to play against (maybe you were like that too once.)
    for me, vfx is going to be useless if its just me versus the computer, unless they ad some really new brilliant ai that acts like a human.
  4. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    are the drugs you use very expensive? :p

    a dumbed vf with competition = i wont play it.

    you seem to be the type who plays some game
    because everyone is playing it.

    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
  5. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Well-Known Member

    NOOO..please god noo..maybe some moves like kage's roll could be a bit more forgiving..but I rather see the game get progressivly HARDER.
  6. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    A step in the wrong direction

    I still have to disagree. I mean, I think the game was dumbed down from VF2 to VF3. Sure, some great additions were made to the game but all in all it's <font color=yellow>WAY</font color=yellow> easier to be really good at VF3 than it was to be really good at VF2. No, dumbing down the game would be a step in the wrong direction - people want a challenge and VF provides that challenge. If they want an easy game, then they can play something else.

    Here in Toronto, regardless of how deep the game is, there will always be competition. And when that begins to dwindle, you travel elsewhere to play against those who also enjoy the game. It's the way it used to be, the way it is now, and likely how it's going to be after the initial novelty of VFX wears off the casual arcade gamer. Things don't change. <font color=orange>I'm ready for it.</font color=orange>

    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    well, i guess that was a flame but just for fun...
    actually if i go into an arcade and there is no vf machine there or there are no people playing it, i wont play it.

    you said that they wont play a dumbed vf with competition.
    well, would you play a complex vf WITHOUT competition?

    i wont.

    you would?

    well weve already got that, its called vf3tb, vf3, vf2. (in usa, in jap there is competition, yah)

    maybe my post was too long so everyone skimmed and missed the points:
    1. sega needs to post a profit and making a more accessible to newbies vf would help them with that.
    spending millions on R&D on a game that will only do well in one or a few countries versus the whole world.

    sega making a hard vf and losing more money and eventually dieing out (so they cant make more games for anyone) isnt that great a biz decision

    2. if vfx comes out and it doesnt get into (or stay in) my arcade because noone plays it, its going to suck relative to me. and maybe you. unless you like playing against the computer or have a lot of vf playing friends. but you guys dont represent all of america/the world.

    3. as i said in message, they can keep the complexity i guess but just somehow get people to play it. maybe more button masher friendly, but you can still do the complex strategies if you know them. blah. did anyone read it?

    we all know that everyone on this board can appreciate vf and wants a more complicated / or equally complex vf (ie, "i know everyone wants a awesome deep VF, BUT..." that was the idea behind my 1st message) but i was trying to be the devils advocate and post something where you would have to deal with the bitch of reality, instead of the ideal wishing for perfection (which makes for a boring/non existent discussion.)
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    (oooh, just thought of a closing point after i sent last message. think of this as a continuation of my last message)

    .... and that bitch of reality is:
    if vfx is as complex and as unaccessable to newbies as vf3tb, vf3, vf2 was, in usa it wont do well. and therefore no competition. which goes back to the top of last msg.
  9. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    I actually disagree with this, VF2 was not as complex a game as Vf3ob or tb. VF2 required more hand dexterity. Vf3 has more variables, think about it: terrain, wall combo's, ability to reverse all throws etc. Both require alot of thinking sure, but VF3 required more than 2.


    <font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

    <font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>
  10. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    yes, I would play a complex vf without
    competition. that's what we are doing now,
    playing a complex vf.

    check this out; imagine if sega decided to dumb
    out vf even more, and sure enough you see
    competition, this wont last for years. you will
    then be thinking "man, i kick ass", when in fact
    it took no skill, lots of people will be thinking
    the same. vf veterans will find out it's not
    worth learning it (where's the satisfation?)
    therefore shortening the replayability and
    eventually going back to vf2,vf3.

    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
  11. Sudden_Death

    Sudden_Death Well-Known Member

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    its like people who prefer VO to VOOT.
    a never ending topic.

    <font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    vf2 had option select and vf3 is more random. some may think vf2 is more complex because you have to worry about missing the first hit since you know all the stuff thats gonna come after. and you and your opponent should know these flow charts. in vf3 you can luck out and miss stuff coming after. so it depends on your taste

    jtx aka the anonymous guy
  13. Llanfair

    Llanfair Well-Known Member

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    Andy - absolutely...but re-read what I wrote ;)

    Yes, more dexterity is required for VF2. Yes, VF3's additions of terrain, throw reversals, etc add to the higher complexity of VF3. However - to become really good at VF3 requires less time than VF2. The learning curve is not as steep. Superb VF2 players were few and far between while this is much more prevelant in VF3. The thing I miss most about VF2 is that when an opponent makes a crucial mistake, in VF2 you could end him right there with the proper skills. In VF3, your chance of really crushing your opponent is much less. In a sense, VF3 allows 'mistake-makers' to almost always have a back door or second chance.


    <font color=white> Llanfair the prized <font color=green>cabbage</font color=green></font color=white>
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    most people dont even know how complex vf is becau

    if vfx comes out and its not online for DC and noone plays it in my arcade (or its not even IN my arcade because noone plays it), i wont be playing it. its no fun for me to learn the skill etc and only play against the compute. no way. but you would. well thats where we disagree (on the would you play it topic)

    i used to be into video games years back, but i got bored of all the time wasting, since vf has skill and you can play against humans in the arcade, thats what brought me back. im not interested in wasting my time against the computer.

    ps. when i say dumb down i only mean a little. im not saying dumb down to tekken level. still leave it complex at high levels just fun for total newbies. vfx should be the most complex deep fighter. but just simpler for newbies. which vf is not. so many people play vf a few times and think its VERY VERY not complex because they cant figure it out. like tekken players (they think tekken is more complex). they hit kick and get some lame kick. and they hit punch. on the surface mortal kombat 1 looks more complex since they can do big uppercuts, jump kicks that work, etc. in vf most newbies cant do SHIT. ever play a newbie in vf. i feel sorry for them. they walk around slowly and do the simplest nothing moves. like a lame duck. no wonder they dont play it.

    i play vf for the competition. against humans. if vfx is unaccessible to newbies and as a result we end up with no competition, i cant play. ill honestly feel sorry for all the hardcore vf gamers if vfx comes out and there is no competition and they are all forced to play the comp.
  15. GodEater

    GodEater Well-Known Member

    Re: most people dont even know how complex vf is becau 2 cents.

    It's funny that we're discussing a "dumbing down" or
    more beginner friendly Vf because that is exactly
    what yu suzuki pictured VF3 to be. If anyone remembers,
    VF3 was supposed to contain elements that allowed
    newcomers to pick up the game fast with quick rewards
    which would encourage them to come back. the more they
    came back the more they could learn at which point they
    would begin to progress to higher levels of play. The
    level that CrewNYC aludes to.

    VF3 was supposed (and I would argue, does) to operate
    on two distinct levels. Accessible and complex. The
    one thing the VF series has always missed though is the
    flash, the easy payoff, the monkey input combos. That,
    I think, is the ultimate reason why most people tend to
    stray. VF isn't "cool" enough.

    This is something that is unlikely to change anytime
    soon. VF has always been more about the guts of a game,
    not the facade. For Market Appeal Sega needs to do more
    than "dumb" it down, they practically have to include a
    morphine hit. They need half-man, half-robot creatures,
    they need swords and bo staffs, fireballs and secret
    stages; they need blood and fatalities and ending stories;
    Some bouncing breasts and grade school titilation wouldn't
    hurt either. They get none of these things and they
    realize it very quickly. And they go away.

    for me, the reality is that VF-X interests me very little.
    Should it die in pre-production I will care as much as if
    Star Wars, Episode II never gets made. VF3TB can be the
    end of the series and I'll never complain. Its a well made
    game and I would rather see it end on that note than take
    any step down to encourage the mass hordes with their
    Britaney Spears CDs and latest colloquilisms in tow.

  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: movement problems?

    i think the main problem in the movement system of vf. from the opinions of my friends that tried the vf3 and vf2, they had real problems moving around. and those that like tekken and doa2.... well this 2 games dosent really have a movement system worth going into.
    1.compared to 2d fighting games, 3d games is harder to break off from combat thus poking combat or turtle fight which is basically tekken/doa2
    2.moving is difficult to learn/input. case in point k-step. can u imagine a newbie figuring out k-step just by looking? and the rewards for moving are too subtle for newbies. in vf2 for them its back dashing, in vf3, they get hit when Eing....
    conclusion newbies feel the movement in vf is stoned. cant really blame them when they are punished when they try to move....
    all in all the 3d fighters out now have either next to no movement or its too hard to utilize. (from a newbie's point of view)

    ps. this is in addition to godeater's point about flash in games. frankly how a game becomes popular has a lot more issues than this, like marketing,advertising,etc. look at mortal kombat, i still have no fucking idea how that game became such a hit....
  17. adamYUKI

    adamYUKI Well-Known Member

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    Well in may cases like you said VF2 came down to a who made the first mistake first then having the knowledge to punish your opponent. I doubt the original programmers ever figured to have things like the senbon punch in the game or near total energy combos in the game. VF3 is more balanced because it allows for the mistakes, but you have to think once you enter a mistake. The players in VF3 can get themselves out of mistakes and the match continues. It will take more overall to win. The time reasoning to get good at VF2 vs. 3..I dunno thats a really though one. I think VF3 would take much lnoger to get good at. VF2 at some point became like I said dexterity and a game of good command input. Like Mason Wood for example he became pretty darn good at VF2 pretty quickly. VF3 is in it's fifth year now, and im still getting better but in a different way, not learning combos but new ways to outthink the opponent, improving my E TE guard things like that. Those techniques add a whole level of option select to VF3tb. VF2 players are getting better but I really think in a differnt way. IMHO I would say though VF3 requires more time to get better.


    <font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

    <font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by adamYUKI on 10/30/00 01:03 AM.</FONT></P>
  18. Emil

    Emil Well-Known Member

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    "VF3 allows 'mistake-makers' to almost always have a back door or second chance."

    If mistake-makers are able to capitalize on their second chances are they really mistake-makers?
  19. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Re: most people dont even know how complex vf is becau

    My two cents...

    If VFX ends up being dumbed down, I might play it for the competition... but it would probably be short-lived... after that, it's back to me playing VF3(including tb). To me, I loved Quake 1 and 2 for very different reasons (between the two titles, very different games). Both were wonderful, both had their strengths and way different aspects... Quake 3 Arena was a dumbed down game to me... I played the game, had my fun for awhile, a bigger Quake population was nice... but I left that game in only a few months... It's back to Quake 2. Remember, this was a question you asked us... What we thought, how we thought about it. I have no doubt that every VF player had thought about this question themselves... at least Western World players... what if the game was dumbed down? what if it was more popular? etc... I think they thought carefully and gave you their answer, it was a question on whether THEY would play it. I don't think they neglected the reasoning of making the game more marketable through gameplay (I will post on a seperate note on that subject). They just decided that if the game does not have what they love about the VF series, or if it feels less, they'll give it up most likely and in the long run, that's not what they want. Maybe a new generation will love it (as a new generation loves its Quake 3, but of course some old gen too), but the beauty they had seen before is not in this game... maybe a new beauty, maybe not... but hope is lost of finding what they had loved in previous members of the VF games. Keep in mind that there are many who have traveled for VF2 and VF3. Not just because of a small community (though that's a big reason to some), but also because they wanted to find new challenge. Whatever it was in the game that got them to love it was worth their resources and time and schedules for those few days, sometimes just one, for the game. Some of the players who are responding with a "hell no to dumbing down" have or have had this passion for the game. I do too. And for me, if VFX does not impress me (it doesn't have to match my expectations, it just has to impress me), I will go back to VF3, competition or not. Besides, in my hard efforts, I have found those that will play the game with me if I take my time to visit or they can visit me. In my hard efforts I have taken quite a bit of time to show some people how to play the game and some of them now share the love of the game as well, while others have really grown to at least appreciate it on a wonderful level.

  20. Mr. Bungle

    Mr. Bungle Well-Known Member

    Re: A step in the wrong direction

    john wayne bobbit had his penis chopped off by his wife, lorena. but, his penis was re-attached and, later, he went on to make porno movies. so, did he _really_ have his penis chopped off?

    jesus christ, man.

    "A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

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