should vfx be simpler

Re: movement problems?

">>how to get mass market appeal while retaining your hardcore fans?"

mr bungle wrote: "you can't. the two are mutually exclusive in any and all areas, VF and everything else. it's a rule of life."

are you on crack?

what you said means: if VF appealed to the mass market, none of us would like it.
your statement is so wrong, its not even funny.
dont feel like writing a lot on it, maybe someone else will.

 

Re: movement problems?

oh c'mon now, everybody knows "you can't please everybody", it is indeed a rule of life.


<font color=red>PICCOLO</font color=red>

 

Re: movement problems?

Not that I want to appease Mr. Bungle, but your interpretation also does not make sense to me.

From what I understood on Rich's statement,

mass market = casual gamers
minority market = hardcore gamers
since they're mutually exclusive, casual + hardcore = all gamers is true.

Based on above assumption,

IF VF appealed to the mass market, casual gamers would like it while hardcore gamers would not.

IF VF did not appeal to the mass market (i.e. appealing to the minority market), hardcore gamers would like it while casual gamers would not.

(I'm also making a rather big assumption where VF MUST appeal to either market. VFX better not suck then...)

Now looking at your statement,

if VF appealed to the mass market, none of us would like it.

which is ambiguous at best. What does "us" refer to? "Us" meaning all gamers? If you're trying to rebuff Rich's assumption (of mutually exlusive markets), "Us" possibly can NOT be all gamers.

I also thought "Us" could refer to us hardcore VFers on this message board. In this case, your interpretation on Rich's statement becomes correct, and I don't know why you have to disagree (with the construction of logic, not necessarily the contents themselves).

Just to let you know that I don't really give a fuck on the contents of the argument. If the game is fun, and I can find competition, I'll play. If not, I won't (like right now...).

I just did not understand your take on Rich's statement, because, following Rich's assumption (to which I really have not given actual thought), his statement makes sense.

 

Re: movement problems?

>Poster: sta783
>Subject: Re: movement problems?
>Not that I want to appease Mr. Bungle, but your >interpretation also does not make sense to me.
>From what I understood on Rich's statement,
>mass market = casual gamers
>minority market = hardcore gamers

no. mass market just means mass market. he did not say anything about minority market either. you did not understand the statements and added your own meaning to things.

(since your premise is wrong, so is your conclusion...)

>since they're mutually exclusive, casual + hardcore = all >gamers is true.

<rest snipped>

then you say

>Now looking at your statement,
>if VF appealed to the mass market, none of us would like >it.

you took my quote out of context. my full quote was
"what you said means: if VF appealed to the mass market, none of us would like it. "
that is very shifty :X



>I also thought "Us" could refer to us hardcore VFers on >this message board. >In this case, your interpretation on >Rich's statement becomes correct, and >I don't know why you >have to disagree (with the construction of logic, not >necessarily the contents themselves).

when i said "us" in here, i meant "us" as in ****US**** on the board. just exactly what the word says. i think youre reading into this in wierd ways if you thought us meant anything other than us. do you see? (there are not that many on this board so i assumed it meant we are hardcore... do you take issue with that? doesnt matter. just assume us meant hardcore gamers in my original statement.)

>Just to let you know that I don't really give a fuck on >the contents of the argument.

not to sound like a snipe (what the hell a lot of this board is sounding like that for me anyway) but if you dont give a fuck, why are you responding. why should i write out a reply if you dont give a fuck and are just dissagreeing to dissagree.

>If the game is fun, and I >can find competition, I'll >play. If not, I won't (like >right now...).

what brought this on in this particular post? it is just kinda popped in there for no reason. there are a few people who keep posting stuff like this and i have no clue why. very boring safe, uninteresting, obvious statements.
do i come back here and every day and post "well, if i turn on my faucet and the water is dirty, im not going to drink it, but if its clean im going to drink that water."

>I just did not understand your take on Rich's statement, >because, following Rich's assumption (to which I really >have not given actual thought), his statement makes sense.

um... bungle replied to a statement made by rich, offering his opinion, and i did the same to bungle, and now you are replying, and you have not even checked the base of this whole discussion?

i guess his name is rich said: "how to get mass market appeal while retaining your hardcore fans?"

bungle said "you can't. the two are mutually exclusive in any and all areas, VF and everything else. it's a rule of life."

you totally misinterpreted it with thinking mass market means casual. and casual is a subjective term anyway so not great to use in arguments. some people may think a gamer who knows how to set up his compute and install hardware is casual and other may think a guy who uses webtv and cant figure out a mac or pc at all is casual.

ANYWAY, here are my thougts clarified even more
*******************
logic permits that there can be a game that is mass market that retains hardcore fans. a game that goes into the mass market that also has hardcore fans. yes there can. this is possible.
what is impossible about that?
this is all that i was saying.

if you agree with bungles statement, it means that if tomorrow everyone started playing VF, the whole world, all the hardcore fans would stop because the two are mutually exclusive.

do you think you would stop if tomorrow it became cool to like vf?
damnit, why do i have to explain something so simple.

and apparantly you do. (or did you miss this simple logic, this was my whole damn point you were responding to. my original message was "what you said means: if VF appealed to the mass market, none of us <harcore fans> would like it.")

so all the way back to the begining again, it shoulda been easy to figure out the first time around.

 

Re: movement problems?

you took my quote out of context. my full quote was
"what you said means: if VF appealed to the mass market, none of us would like it. "

Of couse, with my intention. "If VF appealed..." is jtx's interpretation of bungle's quote, which he disagrees. And my point was to question jtx's interpretation itself. Since I thought the inclusion of "what you said means:" would have no significant impact on the argument itself, I omitted.

when i said "us" in here, i meant "us" as in ****US**** on the board.

Understood.

but if you dont give a fuck, why are you responding. why should i write out a reply if you dont give a fuck and are just dissagreeing to dissagree.

As I said, I don't care about the contents of the argument, whether VFX would succeed, if so, appealing to what type of market...etc. However, I was interested in how jtx derived the obviously different conclusion from that of Bungle's. Since jtx decided to omit the reasons supporting his view, that's where my questioning has come from (and its intention).

there are a few people who keep posting stuff like this and i have no clue why.

I see your point. But I have to disagree because I actually think that particular statement of mine "I'll play if the game is fun..." is actually significant, well, at least to myself.

Everywhere I go on the net, regardless if it's USA or Japan, I keep seeing all these posts about "deep gameplay of VF3". To me, DOA2, for example, seems to have a gameplay as deep as VF. But I don't play DOA2 simply because I don't have fun playing that game.

very boring safe, uninteresting, obvious statements.

Saddening to hear...as I see your point, and usually try to detach myself from doing such. I guess I've behaving too tame lately *grin*

um... bungle replied to a statement made by rich, offering his opinion, and i did the same to bungle,

I'm confused. Isn't Bungle = Rich? just as in sta783 = Shota (though no one refers me by a handle). Of course unless there is another bungle or rich lurking around.

logic permits that there can be a game that is mass market that retains hardcore fans. a game that goes into the mass market that also has hardcore fans. yes there can. this is possible.

I know it's possible. Look at Japan and VF2. When I was there, VF2 was both mainstream and hardcore.

do you think you would stop if tomorrow it became cool to like vf?
damnit, why do i have to explain something so simple.

As I said, I'm not interested in whether Bungle or jtx is right. I am interested in how jtx would make his argument to disprove Bungle's statement.

and apparantly you do. (or did you miss this simple logic

That's because I see no logic, let it be simple or complex. So I would appreciate if you could lay out all the assumptions, one assumption to leading to an interpretation, and eventually to the conclusion.

With a proper proof, no guesswork is required (nor omissions in the middle), either on your side or my side.

 

Re: movement problems?

you said "As I said, I'm not interested in whether Bungle or jtx is right. I am interested in how jtx would make his argument to disprove Bungle's statement."

ok, thats what i did in my two other replies but ill redo it again clearer, maybe i am not clear enough for you.

tofu said "how to get mass market appeal while retaining your hardcore fans?"

bungle quoted that and said "you can't. the two are mutually exclusive in any and all areas, VF and everything else. it's a rule of life."

so following logic, if you go by what bungle said, it means that
if VF gets mass market appeal, VF wont retain hardcore fans.
bungle said they were mutually exclusive in any and all areas (the any and all areas bit cracks me up, what a statement

are you with me so far? do you agree up to here? tell me.

<side comment: this is a very dumbass statement in my opinion for someone who goes around flaming people.>

so then just ask yourself "if VF got massmarket appeal tomorrow, would you stop playing?"
answer the question here: Y/N.
now answer it for everyone else on this group: Y/N.
for me the answer is NO.
if VF was very popular tomorrow, it wouldnt stop me, a hardcore fan, from playing.

NOW. if many/all/even one (depending on your taste) answer "NO" to that question we have proven bungle WRONG. youve got me, so thats one. but not only that, im sure most people on this board (except maybe the very argumentative ones like you would say "NO" also.
they would play Vf if it was popular, they would play it if it was unpopular.

why would you stop playing if VF is popular? are you only into it because it is underground and very few people like it? bungle says that if Vf became popular in the mass market, YOU, the hardcore gamer would stop playing for some reason. do you think you will? if VF3TB became the most popular game tomorrow and all your friends and all the people on earth loved it and started playing and talking about it, would you stop? mr bungle's logic says you would stop. i disagreed with mr bungle. hello? i thought this was obvious.

do you get this so far? this is just one way to prove it. ive repeated this twice already.

 

Re: movement problems?

BAKAKAKAKAKAKA!!

To tell the truth I didn't read the whole thread, too confusing. But my thoughs of people adopting the game? It has to have some degree of Mass Market Appeal. This is how a company would (or can) look at it. You see how much revenue a prior game in a series made (if its a first game it is always the risk game), when you design the new game you should have at least a 25% growth in revenue. That means more players and a bigger franchise. So the game is deigned to draw new players and generate some degree of mass market appeal.

Now how the game's mechanics are designed and the cost of the game will determine how many people stay playing, this number should also be very high, A well designed game keeps people playing for many years more. (Dancing games etc.)

So if a game has mass market appeal = casual gamers
it will in turn cause the casual gamer to adopt it as his or her game to concentrate on turning them into the minor market = hardcore gamers.

The final logic? The larger the Mass Market pool, the larger the Minor Market pool will be. A well designed game such as the virtua series should absolutley and will probably follow this rule.

CrewNYC

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

sta783

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

I'm confused. Isn't Bungle = Rich? just as in sta783 = Shota (though no one refers me by a handle).

<hr></blockquote>

Hehe, just reminded me of a table conversation at NYG2 (on Saturday morning)... Shota, were you serious when you said you were hoping people would call you by your handle sta783? I didn't/don't really take it seriously (figure you are joking), but maybe you weren't. What is the nature of the handle though? Was it an AOL handle or something (serious question)?

And yes, by now, many posts responded to Bungle and referred to Senor Bungle as Rich. Either that or Bungle or Bungalo, or any little spoof on the name. However, it is possible that Rich has someone else posting as Mr. Bungle and playing another joke on us again!!!/images/icons/tongue.gif hehehe notice how Mr. Bungle actually registered onto VFDC/images/icons/tongue.gif Just messin'

-Chanchai

 

NO!!! The sequel should not be easier, it should just be more of everything, modes, bonuses, like in Soul Calibur.

I Am the Supernova Deluxe

 

In the arcade?

 

Re: sta783

Shota, were you serious when you said you were hoping people would call you by your handle sta783?

Of course, I'm joking, but not too entirely though. See...in the U.S., "Shota" is not a common first name (in Japan, it's fairly popular). I'm afraid that my company people and other Japanese friends of mine will somehow spot my name on this board, and think that I'm a videogame GEEK. HAHA...not that I care anyway, because I already am.

Also my girlfriend can also find out what I am up to. See...Shota did NOT go to NYG2. sta783 did. That's at least the version of the story my girlfriend knows (you weren't at NYG1, were you?).

Well...to be frank, I'm not too serious about above reasons either. For example, everyone refers to "Llanfair" as "Llanfair", not by his real name. So it's just got me thinking as to why.

 

Re: sta783

where did you guys get the names "llanfair" "sta783" and "mr bungle" from?
and what about the name "ice-9"?
on a different subject, is chibita lion considered the greatest vf3 player in the world? how would adam, rich, andy, hiro, etc, etc, etc match up against him?

 

Re: sta783

"sta783"

Shota TAmura + some random 3-digit number. A first network ID I've got from the university.

on a different subject, is chibita lion considered the greatest vf3 player in the world?

Since the World is so big, and I have not been to many places, I cannot comment on where Chibita places in the world. But Chibita is surely the best Lion player in Japan, and overall, probably top 5 in Japan. Yami-Yodare is right now considered to be the strongest VF3tb player in Japan.

how would adam, rich, andy, hiro, etc, etc, etc match up against him?

I can speak for Hiro and myself; and we probably are Tier3 players in Japanese VF3 standard. My classification goes: between tier2 vs. tier3, tier2 players win 80% of the matches. And the same goes for tier1 vs. tier2. So between tier1 vs. tier3...ugh...tier3 has very little chance of beating tier1 players.

 

Re: sta783

YOU GUYS ARE ONLY 'TIER 3'!? i'd LOVE to see a tier 1 player in action, or, even better; 2 or more of them.
which character does yami-yodare play as?
who do the other 'top 5' japanese players play as? PLEASE do not say jacky...
thanks, shota
oh, and, last question: in what ways do the very best japanese players differ from the likes of yourself and hiro? hiro's wolf looks pretty darned good on the movies i've seen!

 

Case closed

Well, Rereading all those threads ( just in case i answered wrongly and get bashed in the face)

I would have to agree with jtx here and AdamYuki here.

Mass market can appeal to both the casual and hardcore gamers.
This has been proven by products such as 'Pokemon', SF series franchise, KOF, TTT..blah blah blah...

And Adam( I presume AdamYuki is Adam, either that or it's andy) nailed it right on the spot. A good designed game keeps gamers coming back for more, which in turn, changes them to the hardcore gamer status(usually, that's the case).

Remeber the Marketing law, 80% of your profits comes from 20% of ur returning cosumers. The 20% refers to us( yes us on this board..or other hardcore VF gps...which I for some odd reasons, seems unable to find online), while the remaining 80% have gone on to greener pastures.

I don't think Shota meant he'll stop playing if it becomes popular. i kinda think the same way as he does, if it's not fun for me to play, I WON'T PLAY IT NO MATTER HOW POPULAR IT IS!~/images/icons/smile.gif

SummErs' 'REALLY HATE LAW N ECONOMICS EXAMS!!!'
n' misses his gf VERY MUCH/images/icons/frown.gif

 

Re: Case closed

"A good designed game keeps gamers coming back for more, which in turn, changes them to the hardcore gamer status(usually, that's the case)."

Wow! So Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter (vs. games and all) must be the greatest games EVER MADE! Oh, like, I am so over with VF. I'm ditching these VF losers and playing with the COOL CROWD over at the MK and SF machines! Case, like, TOTALLY CLOSED, dude! YEE HAAHHHH!

 

Re: Case closed

As far as I am aware, SF, Vs. (let's lump that into another category), and MK have their own hardcore following.

Hell, KI and KI2 have a hardcore following, but that's kinda scary.

To their credit, I think they were well designed for their own purposes. Even the Vs. Games which I despise I'll admit, mostly just appeals to a different form of fighting game than we are used to.. The recent ones constantly being about trapping and getting out of traps (I guess I'm just not considering the glitches). Street Fighter (classic 2, S-series, Alpha, etc...) series were pretty well designed as far as I'm concened, to each their own focus on an aspect. SF1 doesn't have much of a hardcore following, and I don't know if it was all that well of a designed game. Don't see a hardcore following for time killers either...

Those games may not be VF, but I don't think that means they were not designed well. I'll personally take VF over any other game by far.

 

Re: Case closed

"I'll personally take VF over any other game by far."
i used to be into video games but now the *only* game id be willing to play is just vf. maybe if i get that f355 game, maybe that one too (and thats made by suzuki also, hmm.)
(thats not to say how hardcore i am, but just how cool vf is, that someone that doesnt feel like playing any other vid games will play it)

 

Re: Case closed

Um the SF and MK players who've chosen to get really good at those games are hardcore gamers without a doubt. If thats what they like playing thats what they've chosen to get good at.

CrewNYC

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

Re: sta783

See the problem is we dont have the chance to play in Japan. Calling us Tier 3 players may be misleading. I would have to say upon arriving in Japan we would probably lose and lose alot. But if we stayed and played for probably about a month or so there would be no doubt in my mind. All of us would stand up to the Tier 1 Japanese players. After playing the game for 4 years now we simply have the ability to adapt like that. Just as gamers though we've kind of demonstrated that. For instance Nelson and Adam are not the type of players who have even been at the bottom half of any game. If you look at all the best players in any fighting game, like the SF series whom many players became very good at in the US. Adam and Nelson were always at the top half. If the competition is better it's only fair to assume that they would reach the same level of play as the best players.

CrewNYC

<font color=red>ORA! ORA! ORA!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>