Shuffle step and you *points finger*

We all love jacky, his super sweet hair, his fantastic alto voice, his unbelievably tight jeans. He is bruce lee and dumb american wrapped into wonderful character design. I'm posting to break down the effectiveness of his shuffle step and why you probably should rethink your offensive approach if using it for more than the occasional ss+p stagger after landing a backturned k(counter) or wall splat ss+k+g near a wall. The odds with anything else are simply not in your favor.

If you think of your defensive options, guard standing, guard low, there are two. Jacky has a total of "12" options out of shuffle step! 2 out of 12 options are the only viable way to make someone guard low, 2+k,k(grounding) and punch(+1 on block). Everything else is hog wash. if you were in vegas and someone told you "hey bet whether or not that guy is getting hit by shuffle step shenanigans", and you were then told the odds of him getting hit if he stayed standing were around %16, you'd bet he wouldn't get hit.

Now I'm not going to completely deny shuffle step has it's applications, but if you're using it in strings, you're developing bad habits that will get handled harshly in high level play.

 

Completely disagree. VF isn't simply a game of odds, otherwise there'd only ever be one right option from each situation (the one that has the best objective odds of succeeding) and everything else would be useless.

Slide Shuffle has many uses, and helps maintain a level of unpredictability as well as conditioning your opponent into certain actions.

When the opponent is rising, you're given an excellent way to bait rising kicks and punish them, as well as a good low/mid mix-up, both of which knock the opponent back down (forcing them to deal with the same thing again and again), and even the weaker option is about 30 points of damage, with the better option being a full combo.

Low backfist options are another example. You can tag them with the low, then any none-low attack will be crushed by the P from Slide Shuffle, giving a nice amount of damage. Do this enough times and you will condition your opponent into either crouching, evading, or doing a low attack. Already this is huge, because now you're able to use low backfist without worrying about your opponent using their advantage, but you can then look to shut down even more options and punish further, by using the mid-level combo attack (P+K,P from SS). It'll beat out crouch and evade (since you can delay for as long as you want, and it has two hits), and give you a lot of damage. This means your opponent either has to go back to attacking (since an attack will beat the P+K) and risk eating the Gwa Chuie combos again, or spam LP. If they go into LP spam, you can just not use SS, guard the LP and have yourself a nice frame advantage, and if they try to mix up between attacking to beat the P+K and crouching/evading to beat the P... well then you're playing the game exactly as it's supposed to be played and it's a case of mind-games, but both of Jacky's options are leading to 70+dmg combos.

Obviously, that's just one set-piece and there are ways to get around it and then there are ways to get around getting around it, etc etc, but you're limiting your potential by dismissing SS as mostly 'hog wash'.

Make your opponent fear the big damaging part of any flowchart enough that they take measures not to get hit by it, then use your option to beat their counter-measures. They either have to keep eating your smaller stuff for fear of getting hit by the bigger stuff, or they have to risk eating the big thing in order to avoid the smaller stuff. It's how most set-ups work - you use the stuff that works until your opponent changes their defence to match it, then you change your stuff. Eventually, both players should be mixing-up what they're doing and it'll be a case of who's done the better job of conditioning their opponent and who makes the better choices that determines who comes out on top.


I don't know much about a lot of the cast, but I know about Kage (my brother spanks me with him a lot) and his Jumonji stance. He has a kick that hops LPs and gives him like 80 points of damage. It's slow and eats a counter-hit from mid-level launchers. Then he has a jab that's fast enough to beat any attack, but it's high. The idea is you keep smacking them with the jab (gives him P,K into Shippou, which then leaves you staring down Shippou at the disadvantage, which isn't fun), until the opponent realises they need to use LP to beat the jab. At which point, Kage is then ready to land his big 'zomg how dare you LP when I'm in Jumonji' combo the next time. Now the opponent is wary of both, and needs to try to 'out-guess' what Kage will do.

 

VF is completely a game of odds, and you play it by keeping the odds in your favor. If someone is really good at Oki you limit your tech rolling, if somone is punishing lp constantly you limit your lp'ing. There are efficient ways to playing the game and inefficient ways to playing the game. I'm simply saying, IMO, shuffle step IS NOT efficient.

This is a perfect example of why shuffle step is NOT efficient. Many would argue that at high level in NON LAG conditions you can guard rising on reaction. Many would argue instead of taking a 30 pt knock down again, you could easily use the frame advantage of a guarded rising attack and use it more "EFFICIENTLY" than a 30 pt knock down. FYI, ss p+k,p does not have the range to hit after a whiffed rising attack, it would need to be a specific rising attack, and then only then would it possibly hit. Go through all of the Japanese Jacky vids and show me where you see them slide shuffle back when an opponent is rising.....

My intention of this post was to "HELP" up and coming jacky players, to NOT rely on gimmic style offense like Shuffle step, and use your reaction and frame knowledge more EFFICIENTLY =).

 

All your post does is come across as chastisement towards anyone who dares to use slide shuffle, and you present your views about 'playing the odds' as some fact-based logic upon which everyone should base their play-style.

If VF was purely a game of odds, then there'd always be a single correct thing to do in each situation, and you could play the entire thing with a pen and paper. The game is more complex than that - you have judgement calls to make and you have a thinking, human opponent who is going to do different things from the last opponent and is going to react differently to the things you do (which is where conditioning comes in).

I mean, you say yourself 'There are efficient ways to playing the game and inefficient ways to playing the game' - the most efficient way to play is to do what will work, and the most inefficient way is to do what won't. It doesn't matter how good one particular option is if it's the only thing you ever do just because it's the 'statistical best'; you're just gonna get predictable and easy to counter. Slide shuffle offers a good range of mix-ups and you're doing people a disservice by telling them not to use it.

That makes no sense. What could be more efficient than baiting a rising kick, getting a free 30 points of damage and putting your opponent back on the floor? It's an amazing tool for conditioning people out of using rising kicks, and lets you sit nicely at the range where you can apply meaty 4K+G on tech-rollers too. Making people afraid to use rising kicks is a brilliant way to make sure you maintain an offensive edge after each knock-down, as you don't need to worry about losing your advantage to a 50-50 wake-up, and can just dish out free damage until they stop trying.

Seems like you've just had a run-in with one or two Jacky players that use slide shuffle and now you're salty about it. Oh, and I'm not sure I'd agree about being able to guard the correct level of rising kicks on reaction (I certainly can't), and I'd be more inclined to think it's a case of getting a read on someone rather than being able to tell whether they're going to use one, and then also which level they're using.

 

Blondie's analysis is spot on. It really isn't that useful against good players. And it is a big crutch. The fact that there are so many pad players who love it should really say something...

I personally hate the spam shuffle. What was AM2 thinking when they put it in the game? I think that the problem is with so many characters it is hard to make them unique so they have to throw in the silly shit.

 

This is so incorrect its not even funny. SS by itself can force your opponent into 50/50 situations. If you predict they'll crouch guard use P+KP. lf they just guard 2kk. Also using SS Gwe chuie after 1P, PPK, 3KPK, 2P+K and SS 2k High Crushes everything. On side-hits strings that go into SS can beat everything( PPK~SS P+KP on side turn beat all option except evade). SS Mid kick is +2 on block on side turn. Gwe Chuie is +1 on guard and Back spin kick (K+G) is 0 or +1. With SS jacky can keep attacking on (-) frames and crush moves and for those that play conservative you can use SS 2kk. Ducking beats all defense options and puts players in 50/50 situations AGAIN because you can throw.
So honestly imo you dont know enough about jacky's frames. W/o SS Jacky would be extremely predictable and his mix ups would be bad. If you dont use SS your going to be a average jacky player.
Ps: You can Delay SS also to throw your opponent off guard.

 

This is idiotic. Without SS jacky would have nothing making his mixups very poor. SS and SSS allow jacky to deal massive dmg. It also beats all options
Ducking: Beats all opponent defense options setting you up to continue attacking ( Evade Backstep. Box steping, fuzzy, crouch etc)
Gwe Chuie: High Crushes
Back spin kick : Beats Evade
Step in Mid Combo: Beats lows, sometimes mids
Step in Mid kick: Mostly beats 2p and Backstep
Fire darts:+6 on Guard.
Low crush high: Anti-Yutori So yeeeaaa your wrong :/

 

If you rely on slide shuffle as a crutch then you're probably much worse than an average player, think that's all the OP is trying to say.

I've played enough of vanilla and FS online to know exactly what the OP is talking about, slide shuffle has it's uses but mashing after every string or pressing for the entirety of a round is going to cause you nothing but problems.

 

Of course, but the same can be said of any move/stance from any character. Constantly mashing the same thing over and over is never going to be good. Just spamming Beat Knuckle every chance you get is never going to be good, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't use it. Just spamming 2K+G with Kage every chance you get is never going to be good, but that doesn't mean it should be classified as 'hog wash'.

If all the OP is trying to say is 'don't just use Slide Shuffle over and over without ever mixing things up', then sure, that's fine, but that's the sort of rudimentary 'help' that can be applied to every aspect of the game, and just enforces what I was saying about not being predictable. I mean, if you just toss out a throw every time you're on a frame advantage, you're going to have problems, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be used. Same applies to Slide Shuffle, and it offers such a broad range of options that it should be used and mixed into your gameplay with a fair amount of use (how you use it is up to you). I even forgot to mention the whole ducking part of it before, and like Zekiel said, it beats out every defensive option and gives Jacky another 50/50 between mid and throw, as well as giving him the choice of simply not attacking and escaping a frame disadvantage without allowing your opponent to attack.

The applications are numerous, and used well, it's as good of a stance and anything the rest of the cast have (maybe not on-par with Flamingo or some of Lei's stuff - I don't know enough about those to comment). If you're finding it to be 'hog wash' then either you're not good at using it properly or you're coming against people who don't know how to use it properly, but the solution isn't to stop using it - it's to learn how to use it properly.

 

I said where it's uses were warranted in my original post. If you dissagree, i'll see you in LA and we can discuss this in a FT10 =).

This is the problem with Western VF'ers...you think by mixing up motherfucking shuffle step, you've given the game all the factors it needs to fire at all LEVELS....you're giving yourselves too much credit. The game at it's highest level is "REACTION" based. Which means, the best player in the western hemisphere is going to on reaction guard your offensive attempts to shuffle step him into oblivion, and i really hope i'm there to watch your shuffle step dreams and aspirations crumble around you. I hope your judgement calls are more than SSp+k,p or SS2+k,k to win the entire competitive field of the western hemisphere.

On reaction good players will duck every attack you string into shuffle without lag. Shuffle step is not a 50/50(see OP). Shuffle step has it's uses, but good jacky's will limit it's uses and stick with HARD UP COUNTERS(see all japanese jacky vids). so STFU.....if you have any questions I'll see you in LA for an FT10. Also, See the evade throw escaping section on how to beat EVERYTHING shuffle step looks to impose upon you....Evade throw escape is not elite gameplay at high level.....(and please don't respond with how ss+k+g counters DTE....for the love of jesus.

You've OBVIOUSLY never played in an american tourney before....lol. I'll take a 60~95 damage throw depending on stage position over a 30 pt knockdown every time. Especially if I know which direction to dodge if whiffed and what to follow up with. Of course, I could always just Slide shuffle back and make you guess....lol.

Slide shuffle works on people that don't know frames, and it also works on people that haven't calculated that if I stand and guard, the worst thing you can do to me is a 30 damage KD that i don't have to Tech....Do the fucking math.

So why are you commenting....

​

This is the truth.​

PS: if you still think Shuffle step is a viable offensive option after reading all this as a jacky player, PLEASE FIND ME A JAPANESE VIDEO WHERE HIGH LEVEL JACKY"S ARE USING IT AS A VIABLE MIXUP. ESPECIALLY ON WAKEUP.

 

I Will try say something relating. Slide shuffle is not as bad as people say. No amazing, But no bad. Does see use in japanese High level play. Rare but does. Slide shuffle have couple Meaty application. Not terrible wake up. Better things okay. Slide shuffle Decent option

 

PS: If i had to sum up my entire VF career in a paragraph, that quote would be the highlight of my career. Having Kyasao at my house to talk with and chat about VF changed my entire outlook on VF and how I persued it in the states. Watching Shinz and moonsuk trash koreans that played in the arcade 8 hours a day like they were scrubs opened my eyes. Watching chibita, ohsu and homestay slaughter the koreans like they weren't even on the same level in front of me, made me realize(your little shuffle step dreams and hopes are a piss in the wind). I care not what you think, it's all about the here and now. Come see me in LA, then we'll talk. Unless you're willing to travel for competition in this hemisphere, you're noise that can be muffled.

Now more than ever this community needs unity and strength. Sure, we're all a little sour our game isn't as popular as we wanted. A lot of talented people have come and gone, moved on with their lives. Virtuafighter takes commitment. I'm not continuing this thread any further, my point was made. I respect every one of you. See you guys around =)

 

I post final thing, Kamaage talk earlier about slideshuffle

"[5:45:13 AM] 武: very strong
[5:45:30 AM] Andre Pickens: any reason?
[5:45:55 AM] Andre Pickens: why is slide shuffle Strong?
[5:46:12 AM] 武: especialy whenn you are attacked from side,
[5:46:40 AM] 武: you can block some specific attack
[5:46:53 AM] 武: like akira's 2P+K+G
[5:47:03 AM] 武: and make some splace
[5:47:35 AM] 武: when opponent is down and he does the down to stand kick
[5:47:48 AM] 武: you can use slide shuffle to
[5:48:10 AM] 武: trhow it and hit it with slide shuffle attack
[5:48:12 AM] 武: things like that
[5:48:26 AM] Andre Pickens: I understand

 

So for Slide shuffle to be "VERY STRONG" you must use it from the side. Which makes sense cause you have a very big frame advantage from the side. So for all you western hemisphere jacky's make sure to OM before using SS.

 

Just Getting opinion top player

 

Kamaage is a very top player. My OP is simply stating, Slide shuffle at high levels is "VERY" situational. Like so situational you might use it after an OM for style and mixup. So "VERY STRONG" I disagree.

"VERY STRONG' in strings or wakeup? probably not.

 

Jacky easy Keep players sideturned. No hard, make Slide shuffle Strong. Can Disagree, just offer opinion

 

I agree that jacky in non lag conditions can stay side turned most of the match. ALso, make very accurate choices on damage from Sideturned. Thank you for translating and giving our thread more depth =).

 

Yes, No problem. Want more talk Jacky Forum

 

Oh buddy, if you know me, i'll give you jacky forum talk =). Hit me up on PSN Blondie_hydra.