Shun Q&A

Didn't find a similiar thread over there, so I'm making one!

My question is what is good for? Do people use it, and how, if they do?

 

Nice idea for a thread, this sub-forum could use some more general discussion . My own two cents -

I don't know that is that useful, or at least I wouldn't throw it out a lot. It's reasonably slow and starts high so it's fairly weak against a fuzzy guard.

I'd use it for pressuring a defending opponent, especially if they are against a wall and would try to evade towards Shun's back as it's half circular. I believe it's the only attack to enter Soukokukyu without cancelling an attack.

 

I also use + when I pressure, especially if I get a counter-hit out of it, which will most likely cause my opponent to start blocking.

Then, once i'm in the stance (which is an awesome stance), I'll push + again (which will do a reversal if they try to attack), and instead of connecting with that final in the string, I go for a throw -- a lot of players familiar with Shun will expect you to do the full string and block until the end of it, so it's a nice way to mess with their heads and get some drinks in the process.

Then, once they start to expect a throw, I can finish the string and get 5 free drinks. The mid should also catch them if they try to fuzzy the throw. I admit I don't use this move very much, but that's probably the main situation I've found to make it useful.

 

A great idea for thread! II feel Shun has many cool and pretty unique moves and mechanics that demand some specific attentions.

P+Ks first high hit is half-circular (covers back, unlike seminal 1KK), but 17f, short range and high-mid so it needs some setups to be effective. I think one it's point is tricking the opponent to get hit with it's weird animation out of nowhere and esp near wall or outer ring. On hit it's +2 and on ch +8 which both give Shun some nice nasty games from SOU stance (refer to stance thread for some detailed information on SOU). On block (-2) some SOU options remain but are riskier now and new ones emerge.

P+K serves a purpose for being a setup move for Soukokukyu stance. The stance is generally a yomi minigame with specific options depending on frame situation that it starts from. To wrap it up, I would say -8 against SOU is a shitty position to be against near the wall and especially near ring border and needs knowledge to get prepared against. Shun has everything but an immediate throw to kill any basic retaliation or evade and options are pretty nasty. For example P+K on block and 4 throw is such a threat 6 throw is a strong option here for a nasty guess for opponent (but takes out the wall game thing obviously).

So knowledge from different P+K hit effects is needed. From SOU at +2, PP is hit confirmable 13f mid KD but linear so beats 11f punches at P+K normal hit and stops everything else cold, starts wall combo too. With both NH and CH, P+K P is a crazy good 2 part high/mid sabaki with drinks mind game on block (as said above) and stagger + mind game on hit and P part (not sure if natural after stagger?) giving 5 DPs on hit and has hilarious pushback (+ follow up games identical to 6 P+K on hit - if opponent remains on stage at all!). Importantly, 2K is _UN_SAFE half circular 18f low (-15 on block, 2 at NH and a great option at +8 CH) that ducks a lot of shit and launches for nice drinking/combo/pushback options. K is 18f too so an CH option but linear yet allows for CHOU games from +8 on block (refer to stance thread CHOU section, can't write everything here!). So lotsa stuff to consider here. I love VF.
Don't use 6 P+K+G though.

On block P+K gets trickier, as Shun must guess the retaliation, with less options. P+K P I is still a great option by beating 11f P (as it rocks). But 2K has slow startup so up to 20f mid launchers murder it (it obviously has most linear (un)effectiveness depending on P+K hit type). However, K+G (26f) becomes an OK option here because of P+K P threat against the usual high/mid retaliations. It's safe on block (-7), crushes lows and launches on normal hit, just be sure to guess right or get launched miserably. Standing P hits in all cases if P+K is blocked, UNLESS Shun does P+K P, so it remains the leading option here. At -2, all 14f mids beat SOU PP so forget it really unless you smell opponent delay for some reason, as it has range.

I think P+K on block can be played pretty much out with attacks, evade techs, esp front evade crouch dash cancel block (remember SOU P+K), but I need to check out P+K sabaki hitbox/active frames more closely since the move is weird shit. Of course BD and SOU evade are also options and not bad ones either. Near the wall things are a bit better of course as many desirable aforementioned moves have pushback and opponents tend to freeze. Especially P+K to P or throw may be a valid option here.

I'll add side game here too, since on block it's 0 (on NH +4 and on CH ?, hard for dojo setup). After OM P on block (+7) or after 2P (+6) 17f P+K is better than in linear situation, losing to 2P but beating back evade and may give(?) guaranteed PP as it's 13f natural mid string. Can anyone check this? Obviously there is 46 P+K after OM too etc. I guess most peeps like to block here.

So I'd say P+K has it's uses but since it's range and speed are compromised I feel it's not great outside near walls / borders / side game. Many peeps like other pressure shit Shun has and I can't blame them as it keeps things simpler (and I guess stance stuff can be somewhat reacted to as it's limited). I like to use P+K from time to time and the other weirdo move 46 P+K too (which is a good CHOU entering option).


NINJa_EDIT: SOU 2K safety nonsense fixed and added side game and other random stuff.

 

Was thinking of doing some small strategy write-ups - I'm not sure what form these will take yet, but I think it would be good to get some more discussion going over how to handle certain situations and how to use various moves. In my own experience I think it's easy to get into habits of using certain moves in a certain situations when there are other mixups or better options to be used, so it would be good to get some chat going to expand people's arsenal a bit more.

Anyway as a start I've done a quick writeup below on using , which somewhat fits into the vein of this thread also.

~~~~~~~~~~


Execution: 14 frames
Grd: -10
Hit: -6
CH: +2

is a move that you'll probably see a lot of Shun players use as it's a good poking attack given that it's speedy, has a good range and ducks under high attacks. However as the frame data indicates, at best you'll only gain a +2 advantage, so some caution has to be taken when using it.

On Guard - With a -10 frame disadvantage, at face value you're in a pretty bad position if this move is blocked, but there are some concessions:

• Shun is in a crouching state when using this move, so this move effectively has a 'built-in' fuzzy guard - If your opponent immediately executes a throw, it will whiff as Shun is still recovering in a crouching position. If they delay their throw attempt this gives you a window to escape.
• You can use the moves' long range to your advantage by attacking from a distance, which will keep the opponent out of range for any close distance punishment (such as an elbow).

The crouching state can leave Shun vulnerable to low throws however, but this is dependent on range. As a test scenario, in training mode record Shun doing a then holding guard. With a character such as Wolf, block the and immediately counter with a low throw. At close range this counter will be guaranteed. At long range the story is slightly different - The frame stats will change to a 15 frame execution and -9 on block. At this distance Wolf will simply be out of range for a low throw. In any case it's always worth trying to make use of the long range of , but against characters with a low throw this is especially true.

On Hit - If hits your opponent, you can still be caught by a low throw if you just guard, however an immediate backdash will prevent this. As is the case on guard however you still won't have an advantage and your best option is to simply defend or retreat as far as frames go.

Backdash, crouching backdash and / are your friends here and will give you space to bait attacks. If these don't provide enough distance, chaining a backdash straight into / will give you a whole lot of room to move.

That said, sometimes an opponent will block after being hit. A forward dash or crouching forward dash cancelled by guard can allow you to advance on an opponent, either as a simple fuzzy guard, or to move into an attack if they've gone into defensive mode. But the point being you can either defend or attack after this movement.

On Counter - This is where the fun is to be had. Only recovers at +2 but that can be enough. As Shun recovers crouching, on counter this can flow straight into to beat any elbow speed (14 frames) or slower moves. You can't beat + but there are other options here. If you're sure that they will try a +, then + or will beat this, but they are slower moves. Alternatively if you have attacked at long range, you should have some space to play with. If your opponent immediately counters with , you can bait this allowing it to whiff, then hit the opponent in recovery ( is a good option).

Otherwise on CH this attack can also float the opponent - From my testing it will cause a float once Shun reaches 7+ DP. You can follow-up with if timed well. If hit into the wall the opponent will wall-splat for a nice combo opportunity.

Using the follow-up - Personally, I don't think this is a strong option. Firstly it's -21 on guard, guaranteeing pretty almost every combo launcher under the sun and a world of pain. Secondly being a low attack, if you try to use it for a mixup (say , throw, or cancel into another attack), you're opponent can use a hopping attack to nix all of these options. Even on CH with a frame advantage, as doesn't combo, cancelling into another attack will almost always be a better option. If you're opponent happens to evade you might be able to catch them with this but my feeling is to use very sparingly.

Summary -

• Always try to use from long range, to take advantage of spacing. As you'll have frame advantage on CH, try to use it as a quick poke to interrupt the opponent, especially if they are using a lot of high attacks.
• On normal hit continuing your offense is dangerous, but you are in a good position to backdash etc. to bait attacks (which Shun is excellent at!)
• On CH you do not have a simple 2-choice offense, but enough advantage to safely continue to attack. At 7+ DP your opponent will be knocked down for a low float, and against a wall will cause a wall-splat.

 

How do you guys run your okizeme game with Shun?

Personally I've started using the cancel mixup to create pressure on wakeup by leading with a standing after entering the back stance.

Here's a good example (with 8 drinks, however you don't need drinks for this particular okizeme):
+ into will most likely cause your opponent to want to tech roll.

On the tech roll, I immediately go into (the needs to be buffered immediately after ) , which causes a follow-up mid that should stuff any attack they attempt to make after rolling.

This then can be followed up with a that leaves your opponent sideturned, or any other mixup possibility from the stance. If they don't tech roll and try to do a wakeup low kick, you can hit + to jump over it and start another combo.

Once they start respecting the and block it, you can go into + for a throw attempt, or cancel the altogether and get 2 drinks. Once they see you drinking, it may cause them to want to attack you, but you can still get the in for a counter-hit if your timing is on, and they're back in the mixup.

Anyway, you get the idea, that's just one option I've begun to develop. I've also noticed japanese players who tend to use the CHOU stance on wakeup (), though I haven't seen it work very well. Others I've seen use + held into the stance, or + into the hit-throw. And then there's the tried-and-true .

Any input on these? I know Shun has lots of options to his disposal, the tricky part is knowing when to use them.

 

Having just completed Jeff combos (kinda), I noticed lots of slightly weaker combos that allow for nicer Oki stuff. One example is K+G P body stun, PPP K4 allows for SOU game if (and when) opponent quick rises. Some of this stuff has been written in stance thread but I guess it needs a lot more more stuff.

That 6K into CHOU on wakeup is a frame trap at +6 on block, but of course nothing is guaranteed. Similar to 46 P+K but it's a pretty quick high, 6K is really slow mid. Blocking the second kick (or whatever comes) after CHOU K is a wise move, so Shun may have to take a risk, ie throw or sweeps. Is there really any use on K+G held to CHOU? I recall it still fucking sucks (sucked since VF2), since it's not hit-confirmable ever. Not many moves suck in FS, but that one still freaks me why they kept it.

Jumping attacks are pretty fun in Oki sense. I have played around with 8/9 K (P+K+G) for Oki since it's + on block and allows various Oushin nonsense. I had a habit of to using 9 P+K a lot but it doesn't crush mid kicks and as a half circ has other uses (like wall splat). Lastly 9 K+G is a lazy combo filler, too slow for my tastes.

Backdash to Psycho Crushhhaaa is a timeless classic and sooo many peeps eat it it's unreal. Even comboable near walls, crazy stuff. Shun's ringout potential already is batshit crazy and Psycho takes it to another level.

I guess my Oki needs real work. Stuff like 66K low crushes. Backdash to 33P is real good in right situations, I use it to harash mid risers. Of course 1P is an option too. KKP for mid kick punishes is nice.

Handstand to roll annoys the shit out of people and makes them fear the (nerfed) P+K rolling mid when rising. The key tactic is to cancel to to Oushin, which has nasty options esp near walls. Depending on how opponent reacts, every Oushin move with right delays or timing has it's uses. Fuudo showed this to great effect in Evo. Even roll to Oushin to handstand can be used, since Oushin K+G gives enough time for K/throw setup.

Nice Soukokuyu find there, I love to use Scorpion kick. SOU is indeed strong in rising situations, gotta look into this dimension more.

 

I use this all the time actually -- first of all it's a good semi-circular that goes the opposite direction of + to catch sidesteppers, but held to CHOU you can throw out and spin them around completely.

Most people I play tend to want to punish +, especially on block. But the pushback gives you time to toss out the and catch a counterhit. From watching Kissa at evo, I realized you can use the follow-up attacks from + during the very first frame of shun going into the stance, so technically you can do follow-ups immediately afterward.

If they start catching on and ducking under the , then I'll switch to +, to Oushin for a very nice pair of mids that push back and can leave them staggered. Usually after the stagger I'll roll forward ++ from Oushin into a throw, and try to get my drink on.

Kissa used the held + to CHOU as a big part of his game, check out this match from evo:



You can see him using it a lot as a pushback tactic, for example at 5:50 where he uses 3 in a row. At 1:50 he uses it after a jab to keep flash side turned. 6:09 is when he gets the follow-up back-turned counter hit, and you can see how he used the during one of the very first frames of the CHOU animation, so you never really saw him go into CHOU at all. But in general if you watch this match, or any other of his matches at Evo you can see Kissa using the held + pretty frequently. Even at 4:17 he used it to set up a fancy CHOU roll into for a combo.

 

Nice stuff, it seems I learn new things all the time. I tested it in dojo, it seems after blocked K+G, standing P beats CHOU P but wins 14f mids for CH +12 and BT, or PP for 47 dmg and +2f. Importantly, at CH 46PPP series is guaranteed on opponents back for 62 dmg. It's strong yeah!

In 2P situation CHOU P goes over it (2P misses) and added P may hit, yet I got no blue CH here. Also, if opponent immediatedly does 2P, Shun can hop forward with CHOU over it for mind games. It's worth noting that from there blocked CHOU K is not too good (unlike 6K to CHOU, it's 0 on block) so other options are are preferable.

 

Did some dojo testing and have written up some tidbits on Shun's moves which can beat low attacks, including low .

The moves which I could think of which have an ability to beat low attacks are: , , , (from Soukokukyu) , (from BT Soukokukyu) , (from Zabantetsu) and jumping attacks. If I've missed any let me know!

doesn't really beat low attacks but it's got some weird hitbox stuff going on which I've detailed below. Strictly speaking I don't think or beat low attacks, as you can be interrupted during the startup animation by low punch etc.

Some notes:

- This is clearly the 'strongest' move for crushing low attacks in the sense that Shun will 'jump' over the attack almost from the very beginning of the move's execution. From my testing you can use this at -8 (!) or better and still beat a or other low attack, so this is a very good move for anticipating low punches. The execution frames are very long though so don't abuse or your opponent can simply counter!

- This move does beat low attacks but the invulnerability doesn't start up nearly as quickly as ; Instead it will crush lows from -1 or better. I think this would be good for attacking a staggered opponent, as low punch is a common counter.

- This move also works from -1 or better, not much more to say...

- I don't think this move actually cleanly beats low moves (like ), but it's got some weird hitbox stuff. Some examples:

• After a guarded and sideturned - Will beat high/low , but not fast mids
• After guarded - Will beat high/low . Mids and long range highs (like Lau's ) can hit.
• After hits - Will beats highs & mids but not .

So after that testing I don't know what conclusion to draw, but it seems to be related to distance rather than any frame advantage. So if you're at point blank range you'll lose out as per your frame advantage, where as at a slight distance, attacks can miss Shun's hitbox.

 

Nice lowdown on "low crushers". There is an interesting 0f situation when either third hits on either CH or on crouching opponent, but arguably more common is on normal hit. Since part can smash any high/ mid retaliation for a shortish combo, low crushing attacks have some nice room here.

Moves below are not necessarily specifically /low attack beaters but in general good moves for forcing opponents to pay attention (which opens doors to Shun's throw game, which is often essential for getting things done).

After 4 drinks becomes a nasty move on block (and an even greater threat on ANY hit). Before 4 DP Shun can kill highs with KG ( after ) stance options. With added mid uppercut at 4 DP all and any instant retaliation after on block makes opponent eat a short (and a very stance specific) combo. On NH and CH Shun gets some time to figure out whether to go for a throw or perhaps some nasty BT SOU antics with (which ones I'm still trying to wrap up atm). The BT SOU transition also pretty easily ducks highs like KG stance does but gets nailed by and elbow. Anything delayed or CH (I think) from is food for BT SOU which is a great sabaki launcher. For standing blockers there is too from BT SOU but it's -15 and recovers standing so be careful.

Basically the same situation applies to string, as opponent has to block string done fast enough. If opponent wants to do low punch there somewhere Shun gets to do the same nasty CH uppercut as with to beat on 2/4/6 DPs, or opt to go to BT SOU with for high attackers/turtlers or on CH. Be aware that both and can be open to (I ate even 14f) punishing after a quick evade so remember to mix it up, delay etc. Combos are also hard to memorize, as they are largely stance specific.

The common anti-Shun tactic applies, aka the magical front evade beats antics as almost anything else (which basically leaves against front evaders). But many moves change Shun's aligment for the better or worse, including , , , (the first of the string only!)

 

I found out some neat stuff regarding setting up , a 15f punisher, which does over 80 dmg combos on midweights at about 8 DPs, refer to combo thread for character specific max combos.

As it's 15f, Shun needs +3 against 12f characters. The easiest way to get 3+ is on block (+3) and hits for 20 dmg, eating all weaker but as fast moves like 12f (10 dmg) which all characters have (BUT Eileen, Kage, Pai, Lion and Kage who have 11f ). The result is a demoralizing 70-80 dmg combo, for just attacking carelessly after blocked !

The nastier and safer way (since takes some frames to do and is easily seen) is actually Shun's standing itself ! I tried and tested standing 's with all characters, and it seems that if hits the opponent during the second active frame, it does +3 on block. Now this is usually tough to hit confirm, but Shun's seems absolutely the easiest of the bunch in my testing (next easiest being perhaps Kage, Eileen, Jacky, Lau and Pai, with some impossible for me like Akira, Wolf and Jeffry).

Knowing exactly when to do can still be tricky with Shun, but one setup is doing one () at start of the round and if opponent just blocks, do another and it should often be +3 on block. If opponent does a P (or anything standing) next ] eats it for a combo! Of course crouching, fuzzies, evading etc beat it but it's still fun to have around.

One extra tactic involves a blocked (+3) from Tentouritsu, a move I never found use before.

 

I was wondering if shun has moves that get safer or unsafer having more drinks. I know that some moves get launcher properties besides a damage bonus after you get enough DP. But i didn't hear anything about frame data changes. Is that a thing or i can trust VFDC frame data?

Also some stances makes the recovery counterhit not always the best way to punish something (tentouritsu K for example). Anything to add to that in order to punish shun with the max damage? thanks

 

Yes, there are recovery frame changes depending on DP status and the most should be listed below:

- 46PPP changes:
from -6 to -1 on block on 9+ DPs and
to 0 at 27+ DPs and
to +1 at 36+ DPs

- the K part of 1P K changes:
from -21 to -20 at 7+ DPs and
to -19 at 19+ DPs and
to -18 at 25+ DPs

- K (OUS) changes:
from -19 to -18 at 17+ DPs and
to -17 at 25+ DPs

- 6K (OUS) changes:
from -18 to -17 at 7+ DPs and
to -16 at 19+ DPs and
to -15 at 25+ DPs

- K (SOU, BT) changes:
from -8 to -7 at 7+ DPs and
to -6 at 19+ DPs and
to -5 at 25+ DPs

- P+K K (BT) changes:
from -9 to -8 at 7+ DPs and
to -7 at 19+ DPs and
to -6 at 25+ DPs

There seems to be some misinformation on the frame data page, as 6K (OUS) is -18-19 on block for me at 0 DP depending on the active frame it connects instead of -21. Also, 8P+K P+K+G is -4 on block rather than -1 as marked in frame data page. I got +3 on block every time I tried the 4P+K+G P, rather than +2 on the same page. These changes apply to active frames too, of course.

 

thanks a lot, this info are really helpfull.

 

When opponent is in sideturned state and tries to evade and attack immediatedly (P or 2P), Shun's P+Ks mid part hits the attacker. So in that sense, its covers both front and back.