Shun special stances strategy

First of all, the alliteration was totally unintentional.

I recently (today, basically) started playing Shun, and I'm trying to understand his gameplay. Of course, to be effective, Shun needs to drink, and the more he drinks, the more powerful options he unlocks. However, besides this central mechanic, Shun also has 5 special stances, and they are the reason I'm starting this thread.

Basically, what are these stances good for, what kind of mixups are available from them, what is the general strategy?

Now, I am very new to VF, and even newer to Shun, but I'll start the ball rolling with some really basic stuff I've found. Please don't be too harsh if my strategies are crap.

Choukarou stance (Shun on one leg)

In this stance his basic is pretty fast, and can stagger (I think on hit vs a crouching opponent or CH). If the opponent doesn't recover, another will launch, and you can combo.

from this stance seems to be decent against people who try to after the first hit. This requires at least 4dp, however.

If you make your opponent hesitant to attack, or try to sidestep, you can throw for decent damage, and a transition to Oushin (lying down).

You can also go low with +.

Oushin (Shun lying down)

This stance has different moves depending on whether Shuns head or feet are toward his opponent. In both stances, + gives a throw that grants Shun a launcher.

With feet towards, hits mid and gives the option to go back into the same stance again with ++. hits low.

is pretty good too, fast, can make your opponent hesitant, granting you a throw attempt. Regardless of which way you are lying, turns you head towards.

It is also possible to transition to tentouritsu (handstand) with +.

Finally, Oushin is quite evasive, many attacks miss Shun in this stance or while he is transitioning to it. If your opponent is confused by this, you can sneak in a drink with ++, which grants 2dp.



For now, I'm sorry, but that's all I have. I wish I could contribute more, but I need more lab time. Anyway, I hope this can get something started, and I would love to hear what you more experienced players like to use Shuns stances for!


Edited to have those awesome symbols instead of plain text.

 

Za Ban Tetsu

I find it quite useful. catches a lot of people off-guard, and simple is ,if I recall correctly, a juggle starter. Also looks nice

I am by no means an expert. Just looking at poor drinking man thread makes me sober. Not a lot of people post here.

 

Great thread! Just picked up shun, moving away from akira because I was playing too "honestly" with Akira if you know what I mean.

I'm still playing shun without using much of his stances so I'll definitely keep an eye open for this thread thanks!

 

If you're new to Shun focus on Oushin, Soukokukyu and Choukarou as the other stances have only limited attack options. Oushin has had big changes since VF5 vanilla, it's much more useful in his overall game now.

 

What's the common way of going into sou? I mean oushin and chou I use because lots of attacks just naturally go into that but sou is like something i have to force like p+k or stuff like that

 

After or variants of this move (eg after , after , , after (from Choukarou)) is a good place to start.

Almost every move into Soukokukyu is a cancel of some sort, so you have to consciously choose if you're going to shift into the stance, which there is a bit of an art to. Cancels are great for mixing up your attacks and mindgames against the other player, but if they are ultra offensive they'll just attack you while you are shifting into the stance. You need to read if they are to type of player to hesitate when they see the cancel or just plow on through regardless.

Keep in mind that for a move like , cancelling into Soukokukyu will mean that you won't have attacked at all, you're just doing a lot of movement which might make the opponent pause. Where as if you are executing an attack first (like ,, then into Sou) you can hit-check your first move and either:

a) Defend,
b) Continue with your follow-up,
c) or cancel your follow-up into Soukokukyu

But the point being that if you've already successfully hit your opponent then the other player might be less inclined to attack their way out of the situation than if you're both in an even state.

 

Right, so I've messed around in Dojo mode some more with Shun, and I've focused my efforts on his simplest stance, Kasen Gyou'in (Lean & drink).

I'd like to preface this with a disclaimer: I am still new to this series, this game, and this character. Therefore, what I come up with is not by any means foolproof, or the end all be all of Shun technology. To make things simple, I'm just a dude who's been sitting in the lab and thinking about stuff. Ok?

Anyhow, on to my lab notes!

KASEN GYOU'IN (Lean & drink, and now KG for short in this post)

KG is a temporary stance, meaning that unlike his other stances, Shun doesn't hold the pose indefinitely. It is in this aspect rather similar to stuff like Jacky's backstep, Akira's backstep & sidestep, Brad's sways, rolls and flickers, Wolf's run, etc.
In my opinion, KG is a useful tool in Shun's game, especially when at range, and I'm going to try to explain why.


HOW TO ACCESS KG

KG can be accessed with the following inputs:
++
,++
,++
,,,++
,,++ (requires at least 8 dp)

MOVES FROM KG


Startup: 15 frames
Hit level: Mid, linear
NH:+5
CH:+9
Block:-3
Wall: Stagger from 7 dp onwards

This attack is an excellent poke. It reaches quite far, and is fast. While the damage is not very big, it can still serve as a deterrent, and establish respect for Shun's spacing and drinking in the opponents mind.

When this move hits, it can also help you get a read on what your opponent does after getting poked. Since you are at a respectable distance from your opponent after connecting, very few things they can do can hit immediately, allowing you to start getting a read on whether they like to try hitting you back right away, try to back off to reset the spacing, evade, crouch, etc. Since you are in all cases at advantage after connecting with this move, use this to inform what kind of mixup you'll attempt (or won't attempt, since staying in place and drinking is a valid option) after hitting. Finally, with the opponents back to a wall, you can cause a wall stagger from 7dp onwards, giving you either a wall combo ranging from 70-100 damage (this is hard to calculate because Shun's damage and combo options vary with how many dp he has), or a throw mixup.

When this attack is blocked, Shun is at a minor disadvantage, but still quite safe. In fact, because of the excellent pushback on block, the opponent cannot reach with ,, or a throw without moving first. This spacing gives you a few options depending on what you want to do:

If you want to stay in your opponents face, +, , and +, (requires at least 8 dp) are decent options. With +, you can also cancel into Choukarou (Shun on one leg) to keep the pressure going. is quite evasive, and goes under a lot of stuff, even some elbows. is negative on hit, in all cases ending your advantage, but it is fast, and also very evasive because of how low Shun goes. Also, it is a true low, which can always help chip a bit of life off of a near-death opponent. Finally, while +, is a riskier option, it does slide under a lot of highs, and can let you mixup a blocking opponent by delaying the followup.

If you wish to keep a distance to your opponent, + and ++, as well as are good options. Besides being generally hilarious, ++ can be cancelled into Choukarou, creating a sort of "come at me, bro" situation. ++ lets you run away slightly less far, should you wish to re-engage your opponent shortly. Finally, can be cancelled into Oushin (Shun lying down) or just left to recover downed. Which one to do depends on you and your opponent, with the caveat that Oushin is easier to hit than Shun being truly downed. Of course, should you have a ring edge or wall to your back, don't do any of these.

It also bears mentioning that using /++,+/ can be a valid option is you want to punish an opponents retaliation attempt. While the + option grants a combo on hit, and the option doe not, is safer, should you not trust your read entirely. Both are also high, so be aware of that.

Additionally, because of the space between you and the opponent, you can always attempt a direct transition to another stance, like for example Tentouritsu (handstand), if you want to gimmick your opponent or just confuse them (wtf are you doing on your hands, dude?).

Next up, I'll write about the other options from KG, which are , +, ++, and general KG strategy. Bear with me as I reserve 2 more posts, I'd just like this stuff to come without interruptions, and it takes a LONG time to write.

 

KASEN GYOU'IN (Lean & drink, KG for short) continued



Startup: 19 frames (Iffy, from further back, game says 21)
Hit level: High, full circular
NH:KD
CH:KD
Block:-8
Wall: Low wall splat

When entering KG from slightly closer range, chances are that your opponent will try to evade KG to try and take the advantage. This is what this move is good for, since it is flly circular, with decent, but not amazing range. On hit, this move grants an easy combo with +, (requires 8 dp). If the opponent blocks, you are at big disadvantage, but nothing is guaranteed. Consider doing a ETEG, or just blocking.


+

Startup: 21 frames
Hit level: High, linear
Unblockable! +10 when the move connects

If you've established enough respect for KG in your opponent, they may very well start just blocking and and try to take back the initiative afterwards. Since is a mid, that means the opponent has to block standing up, which allows you to use +. While this attack gives nothing guaranteed in open space, because of the pushback, you are at big frame advantage, which you can use to inform your basic mid/throw mixup. In general terms, if you think the opponent will try to push a button, you can launch them for free, while if they try to block or evade,you can get a throw attempt.
Close to a wall, however, you can get a guaranteed throw attempt, but you need to be quite fast.

++

Transitions to Oushin (Shun lying down)

Transitioning to Oushin can be useful if you notice that your opponent respects your space when you do KG from a distance. Once you are lying down, you can either start Oushin mixups, or drink more, forcing the opponent to engage you. At closer range, doing this transition might allow you do dodge some of your opponents pokes, but I find it to be kind of iffy.

 

KASEN GYOU'IN (Lean & drink, or KG for short) continued

USING KG EFFECTIVELY

It is no secret to anyone that Shun needs to increase his dp to start being really effective. In fact, it is the basis of his entire gameplan. KG is a simple way to start increasing his dp, since every activation of this stance starts with Shun taking one drink. As I've outlined earlier, KG can start to make your opponent more wary of trying to interrupt Shun's drinking with KG, which can serve as way to start increasing your dp with relative peace. Once you've obtained that, you can try to just loop KG or drink normally (++) to force the situation, or transition to another stance if you feel like it. This can also be a good opportunity to improve your position if you are close to an edge or a corner, etc.

Merely using KG by doing ++ can get predictable, however, which is not a good thing. This is where cancelling strings into KG, as mentioned in the beginning, can be useful.
Once you've made your opponent respect the follow-ups of (, requires at least 4 dp) and () respectively, they should be much more wary of trying to interrupt your strings. This is when you can either try to throw them, or cancel into KG, and apply mixups from there. Be aware, however, that this is slightly riskier, since Shun's fastest move is 15 frames, and you will lose to a happy opponent, or someone with badass reactions. The reason this is still valid in my opinion is because punishing Shun for cancelling into KG at close range requires a very fast move, and really good reactions. Amusingly enough, should your opponent attempt to evade the canned follow-ups of and while you cancel into KG and immediately do KG , this will result in you blowing up your opponents failed evade, which can be very confusing for an opponent unfamiliar with Shun. The same type of mixup applies to cancelling the ,, string into KG, with the attack serving as a deterrent to retaliation attempts instead. Also, because this string has a big enough gap for your opponent to attempt to push a button between the first and second hit, and get CH for their trouble, simply hit-confirming and finishing the string with is also a good option.



Well, that's it for my basic lab notes so far, and this is certainly taking much more effort then I thought. I hope this stuff can be useful to you guys, and more importantly, that it can withstand the transition from theory to overall practice without to many bumps and bruises along the way.
As I said at the beginning, I am quite new at this series, so if any of you more experienced Shun players have some sort of critique you would like to give, or lab notes/mixups/strategies you would like to share, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

Your posts are a huge help. Thanks

 

Playing around in the dojo, looks like backturn shou totally dodges high attacks if you don't press anything and just let shun drink. however if you press any button you will get hit. however you can just sabaki (P+K) for the huge stomach crumple combo (i just do 6k kp)

 

I'd like to add a series I find useful, but experienced Shun players already know this one:
hold into Chko and immediately then either or ,

This gives spacing while kicking as you retreat into chokou, and then you immediately roll forward into a choice of kicking (goes low, nice range) or the punch (which is the same as ) and can be followed by an additional punch if you have enough drinks.
It's surprising how well this works, and as long as you don't over use it can be a nice tool in your kit.

 

The hit-throw is very nice surprise from time to time also, Shun takes 3 drinks then (iirc)

Oushin

Dont forget that we can evade while on the floor with directions & It looks classy and is quite nice mind-game on our side. I mean, we can do soooo much just chillin on the floor, and then we can chill some more. My favourite stance next to just sitting down

 

thats a nice one that i use

 

Alright everyone, I've been sitting in the lab, taking notes, trying out my stuff on people, going back to the lab, etc for the past week. Today, I'll post what I've been working on, which is the Choukarou stance, and what it is good for. Before we begin, I'll add the same disclaimer as last time: Basically, I'm just one dude who thinks Shun Di is really funny, so I've been labbing and trying out stuff. I AM NOT A VF GOD, MY WORD IS NOT LAW. If some of my stuff is dead wrong, or you know how to make it even better, I welcome your input! With this said, let's get started on...


CHOUKAROU (Shun on one leg, henceforth referred to as Chou)

Chou is a powerful option in Shuns arsenal for when he chooses to engage the opponent at closer quarters. Most of the moves available from this stance are designed to defeat an opponents attempts to interrupt, crouch or sidestep Shun, leaving them eventually frozen in stand block, thus allowing Shun to press the advantage for a moment, which may be all that is needed to start really gaining momentum. At further ranges, Chou also gives the option to roll to the opponent for a mid/low mixup, or transition to either Zabantetsu (sitting) or Oushin (lying down) to gain drinks and change the dynamic of the match.


HOW TO ACCESS CHOU

Chou can be accessed with the following inputs:
(hold)
(hold)
(automatic transition)
+ (automatic transition)
+ (hold)
+ (hold)
Soukokukyu (Shun with one hand overhead) (hold)


MOVES FROM CHOU

, (2nd hit requires at least 4 dp)

Startup: 15 frames
Hit level: High, full circular (2nd hit is mid, linear)
NH:+6 (2nd hit +2)
CH:+12 (2nd hit KD)
Block:+1 (2nd hit -7)
Wall: Stagger from 7 dp onwards (inconsistent, axis issues)(2nd hit gives "wall lick" on CH)

This attack is fully circular, and naturally combos if you do both hits, whether on NH or CH. Because of this, this string is good against opponents who attempt to evade Shun once he has transitioned into Chou. This can occur after the opponent has realized that they cannot interrupt a Chou attack after having blocked moves such as , + and + (hold). The Chou , string itself also cannot be interrupted if the first hit is blocked, and gives a small combo if the second hit is a CH, adding more pressure. Once the opponent respects this, you can cancel the second hit into Soukokukyu by holding , and continue with whatever offense you see fit. Should the opponent block both hits, you are not punishable, but at a moderate -7 disadvantage, respect this. Finally, this string is a good juggle if moves such as or Chou have launched the opponent.

 

CHOUKAROU continued

,

Startup: 17 frames (18 from far)
Hit level: Mid, linear (both)
NH:+8 (2nd hit KD) (1st hit will stagger a crouch blocking opponent)
CH:KD (2nd hit KD)
Block:0 (+1 from far) (2nd hit -9)
Wall: Stagger (2nd hit low wall splat NH, high wall splat CH)

Another excellent string from Chou, and in my opinion, one of the mot useful ones. Because the first hit will stagger an opponent if they crouch block, giving either a launch with another Chou (launch) or , if the opponent does not shake, or a ++ , (8 dp)/ mixup if they do, the opponent will soon learn to stay standing to block this attack. The second hit of this string will CH any interrupt attempt, as well, which will quickly teach your opponent to block both hits. Once this effect has been achieved, it is possible to attempt Chou + to throw the opponent and transition to Oushin, because Chou is the only attack that doesn't transition out of Chou. While both hits are linear, good application of Chou +, , and +,, should have taught your opponent to fear doing so.

This string is also useful in that the first hit launches on CH, a common occurrence if your opponent doesn't respect your advantage after transitioning into Chou with either or +. This allows you to combo with Chou , for decent damage.

Should the opponent have blocked both hits, you are left at a substantial disadvantage of -9. However, this string gives good push-back, and therefore, you can attempt to abare with choice evasive attacks such as +, +, (8 dp), or /++,+/. Attempt this at your own risk, or try to ETEG/block your opponents retaliation attempt. Overall, to get the most out of this string, you need to be able to quickly hit-confirm the first hit, and make a good read on what the opponent will do next.

As a final note, while the first hit of Chou , can wall stagger, I do not find it to be very useful, since it is impossible to cancel out of Chou quickly enough to link into anything meaningful.

 

CHOUKAROU continued

+,

Startup: 15 frames
Hit level: Mid, linear (both)
NH:+3 (2nd hit stagger)
CH:+6 (2nd hit stagger)
Block:-6 (2nd hit -22, -10 if cancelled to Oushin)
Wall: Stagger from 21 (!) dp (2nd hit no wall properties)

Like most strings out of Chou, this string cannot be interrupted and will frame-trap your opponent, as well as frame-trapping an opponent who attempts to retaliate after blocking , +, and + (hold). However, since the first hit leaves you at -6 on block, and at a certain distance, it is not very useful to set up throws with. The real interest of this string is in the mixups that flow from the second hit. This attack acts like a slightly slower version of Shuns from neutral, and has the same follow-ups, namely:

- a 26 frame linear mid that crumples on hit, and staggers on block.
- a 25 frame linear low that costs 1 dp, staggers the opponent on hit, and leaves Shun face down with his feet towards the opponent.
++ - a transition to Oushin.

When using Chou +,, it is therefore important to be able to quickly hit-confirm the part of the string, and act accordingly. On hit, the follow-up can combo if the opponent doesn't shake the stagger fast enough, and stagger again if they do, which is good offensive pressure, and quite frustrating. On block, the low follow-up can let Shun beat some retaliation attempts due to the extremely low animation, and if the opponent doesn't shake the stagger fast enough, wake-up K will launch, letting you combo + for 5 easy drinks. Finally, cancelling into Chou can let you evade SOME attacks from the opponent on block or evade, and on hit lets you sneak in a drink. Use this if you feel confident in your Oushin game. Be aware, however, that the Chou +, string is linear, and therefore requires you to make the opponent respect Chou's anti-step options (+, ,, +,,) before using it. Similarly, ALL follow-ups from the part of Chou +, are linear, and there is no way to stop the opponent stepping these, therefore, do not abuse this tactic.

 

CHOUKAROU continued

+,, (requires 1,6 and 7 dp respectively)

Startup: 26 frames
Hit level: Low, full circular (all 3)
NH:-3 (2nd -4, 3rd KD)
CH:-3 (2nd -4, 3rd KD)
Block:-18 (all 3)
Wall: 3rd hit gives "wall lick"

Acting the same as Shuns regular +,,, this move can serve to discourage stepping when Shun has transitioned to Chou, as well as mixing things up on an opponent who has learned to block standing against Chou. While the first two hits of this string leave you at a disadvantage, they do naturally combo, and the third gives a sweeping effect. I personally prefer to only use this when I have at least 7 dp, so as to guarantee I'll get a KD from attempting this risky (-18 on block) move.


+

Startup: 18 frames
Hit level: Catch throw (Untechable, unblockable, unsteppable, beats regular attacks startup frames, loses to throws, can be crouched)

Once your opponent becomes hesitant or tries to step at the sight of Shun in Chou, or has learned to respect the various frame-traps that transition to Chou as well as the Chou , frame-trap, this move allows you to throw them for decent damage and an automatic transition to Oushin.

In this particular situation, it is common for the opponent to try to hit Shun with a low rising attack. You can circumvent this by doing ++ twice to transition to Oushin with head towards and subsquently roll away, and even try to retaliate with or (these are the same as the follow-ups from and Chou +,) from this roll if you think the opponent will chase you. Another, harder way to defeat a low rising attack after having thrown the opponent with Chou + is to time Oushin + correctly, in which case it will stuff the rising kick and transition to Tentouritsu (handstand). It will also look awesome.

 

CHOUKAROU continued

++

Transitions to Zabantetsu (sitting)

/++

Transitions to Oushin (lying down)

Having dealt with all the mixups from Chou, or seeing Shun transition into Shou from a certain distance (Such as after using +), a cautious opponent may choose to simply back off from Shun and wait for better opportunities to present themselves. This allows you to use the transitions available from Chou to either Zabantetsu or Oushin, depending on what you want to do, whether it be forcing the pace by drinking, or attempting mixups from either of these stances. Additionally, transitioning into these stances can evade SOME attacks due to Shuns low hitbox, however, I would not really recommend counting on this too much.




++, , (8 dp)/

++ from Chou lets you do a forward roll that covers a decent amount of ground. From this roll you have two options:

, (8 dp)

Startup: 11 frames
Hit level: Linear mid (bot)
NH: Stagger (2nd hit KD)
CH: Stagger (2nd hit KD)
Block:-6 (2nd hit -8)
Wall: No special properties (2nd hit "wall lick" NH, high splat CH)

This attack is essentially the same as Shuns +,, and shares the same properties, ie range, frame-trap potential on the 2nd hit (8 dp required), etc. Use this to pressure the opponent after rolling forward.



Startup: 21 frames
Hit level: Full circular low
NH: KD
CH: KD
Block:-21
Wall: Low splat

This attack is, deceptively enough, fully circular. If the opponent tries to step the ,, this can catch them off-guard. Be aware, however that this option is highly unsafe if blocked.


Taken together, these options allow you to engage a mid/low mixup on an opponent wary of engaging Shun in Chou. Commonly, this can occur after using +, or if the opponent has become aware of the frame-trapping potential of + (hold). This mixup can also be useful if the opponent shakes the stagger from either , Chou if they connect on crouch block, or Soukokukyu (hold) if it connects at all.

 

CHOUKAROU continued


Using Chou effectively

In general, Chou excels at punishing opponents who attempt to interrupt Shuns offense. Both when transitioning into Chou with , +, + (hold) and Soukokukyu , on hit OR block (if + hits, Chou , is even guaranteed!), as well as within Chou itself, there are plenty of opportunities to punish your opponent for hitting a button with the various moves I have listed thus far. In particular, is a really stand out way to transition to Chou, with excellent frames on both hit and block, as well as being a mid that staggers crouch blocking opponents. Consider using this move on opponents recovering from a tech roll to surprise them with a Chou mixup.

Opponents wary of Chous offensive potential may attempt defensive techniques, but Chou has options to beat those (,, +,,, +), provided you make a good read on your opponent. Enforce these to frustrate your opponent further, and make them afraid to do anything when Shun has entered Chou!

It is also possible to transition into Chou by cancelling either or , into Chou, this is done by holding down. This allows you to use the Chou mixups on your opponent after cancelling Shuns , string. Be aware that you need to have firmly taught your opponent not to interrupt the , strings follow-ups before attempting this, however. To this end, I personally feel this is most useful once you have 16 dp or more and the opponent is aware of the ,,, string. Since this string cannot be interrupted between the second and third hit, and must be blocked low on the third, this can "freeze" your opponent long enough to let you cancel into Chou and move on from there. Be careful, however, because you are still at negative frames after cancelling. Do not abuse this.

Finally, Chou also offers some ranged options with the ++ roll and its follow-ups. These can be useful after the opponent is staggered by either , Chou or Soukokukyu and attempts to shake out, or after you use +. Since + is also quite good at beating wake-up attacks, this can let you put a very odd sort of pressure on your opponent after knocking them down. Should the opponent respect your ranged options, you can attempt transitions to other stances if you so wish. Doing so can let you drink, or attempt whatever mixup you had in mind. As a small aside, these transitions have some evasive properties. While this is kind of gimmicky, it can let you dodge some moves and immediately retaliate with for example Zabantetsu or Oushin +, which is almost certain to elicit a "WTF" response from your opponent.



That's it for today's marathon posting guys! As always, I hope this is useful to anyone trying to wrap their head around Shuns stance game, and if anyone has further strategies they want to post, I wholeheartedly encourage you to do so!


P.S. The EVO 2012 VF5FS stream featured L.A. Akira in pool 7. Look up his matches to see some excellent use of Chou, in particular his use of and the immediate frame-trap follow-up with Chou ,.