Side-turned on knockdown?

So I've noticed a lot of videos seem to have people preferring to end combos with a spinning knockdown (e.g. ending a Sarah combo with 3kk as in kp6 fs p 3kk will tend to get this) that leaves the opponent with their side to you when they are knocked down on the ground. Is there any special oki situation that arises from this situation? Does it force a particular rising attack, or is is it convenient to be able to OM to the head reliably if they don't quick rise? I looked a bit in the system guide and threads but didn't see this come up and I didn't know if there was any "formal" term for the situation.

 

Nice question.
In the recent video of ExMRdAndyJ, he point out that :



1 )At 45 mn 20 secs, if you normal or quick wake up from a side turned situation, you are still side turned when you are standing ! Bad situation for sure !!!



2 )At 51 mn, there is some position where if you choose to do a rising attack, you will not do a full circular move. Instead you will do semi circular. Worst there is some case where you will do a linear attack. These can affect mid or low rising attack



Those situation are decided by your position before you choose an option so like you said Offensive Move are a great tool to control the options or your opponent if he is knockdown.

People complain a lot about rising attack but if you can control and force your opponent to do some moves, the mind game change a lot.

 

Thanks! I'd seen the video but I guess that part didn't register to me. I see why this is so useful now. It really kind of makes those hits that give you this state preferable I'd think as enders just for getting side turned on QR even if you give up some damage. I think this is where some of the Sarahs I've seen are getting to set up Step 2k/2kk pressure and mixups, for example.

So the inverse question: anything you can do about it if you're in this state? Or do you just get up side turned and hope?

 

If you roll up or down you get up in normal position even if you were side turned during the knockdown
Now the question is what is the bad part of choosing to roll ?

I don't know yet

 

I think the problem with rolling is a bit more complex, and a bit character dependent. But the first thing to know is you can't immediately evade (I wish there was more info about this, first learned when L_A pointed it out in the level up interview, but I don't know the full system rules about it). And then it comes down to either the fact that you're technically crouched after a roll (vulnerability to low throws if you guard, counterhit if you don't), or it leads to a frame trap. (Lion has a solid mixup between low full-circular kick that knocks down and mid full-circular kick that knocks down if you sideroll against him, for example).

 

Well, now I understand what some of the Japanese videos have been doing; that explains the Slide trap for Sarah on wakeup then. If you're using Slide 2k/2kk it's a legit mid/low mixup if they can't evade. And you can be hit thrown if the mid is blocked, so it's actually worse; the question would be if Slide tracks the roll or not. I guess Lion's situation is similar. It might be worth compiling these for each character into a single list? I know wakeup pressure is one place I'm weak and since the VF system isn't quite as intuitive as say Tekken/SC in terms of what you can use as oki I'm sure a lot of people would want to see that.

 

I don't like compiling thing. I see the point but it can hurt the players instead of help them.

We just don't know the game well yet to decide to compil thing.
Yesterday you were not aware of some stuffs, today you learn something, tomorrow you see a new tech, in one week you will be aware of new tricks, in one month, in 6 months, in one year, etc

Compiling stuff today is acting like Neo in the movie Matrix when he said to Morpheus "I know Kung Fu" to finally get body for free just after

People will read this compil and think "i know VF5FS" even if you warn them that it's not the case.
If you really want to compil, wait a moment, one year, the game is new. No need to hurry up

 

I'll bite on this tangent <span style="text-decoration: line-through">just to make it real quick</span> (lest it becomes a side topic thread).

I like dynamically compiling things ^_^ I used to use notebooks, now I use Evernote all of the time! Technically I am compiling when I use it, but I often update it, delete things that just really aren't working, putting in notes for things that are more situational, etc...

I understand wanting to get to the full truth, we all want that. But I don't think it's bad to list things off in a manner of "well this is a place to start and I'll keep updating my list and I'll note exceptions."

I don't think exceptions have to be the enemy of compiling. We can always put in * notes, endnotes, or build an appendix to explain the non-base case scenarios if we need to be complete.

It's good to start somewhere, it's good to go more in depth as we learn and dive deeper too, and I think everyone is capable of it but it's a choice whether they go for it or not.

Sometimes, by accident, correctness can be the enemy of moving forward, I think.

Anyways, just my thoughts. But I do appreciate your concern about lists, for sure lists are a simplified model. But for some people, it helps them "Get Things Done." But I tend to be a believer in learning, unlearning, and then expanding.

Regarding Evernote, it's just a great way to take notes, organize them if you want to (or simply just tag them) and a place where you can just delete obsolete information, note unique information, and update with what seems to be the best or most applicable sets of information ^_^

Extra <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Note RANT (Added In via Edit): </span>It's great to want to get everything right the first time... but as I've gotten older, I've found that simply doing something is better than waiting to know with 100% certainty before moving forward. We can iterate. And as a Virtua Fighter Community, we are capable of moving forward, improving information, and having a dialogue about what works and doesn't work while we are playing. What we post out are interpretations of what plays out in the game and how we are trying to reverse-engineer the mechanics. As a group, we can explore this game together. If we are afraid to try things that might not be correct, we'd have issues. There are already a lot of people on VFDC who are afraid to post because they are afraid of not being 100% correct. I am certainly guilty of putting out imperfect information and I know that. But I see us, as a community, as a really large playtest group, and in playtesting, we're going to be creating a lot of hypothesis, most of which will be proven wrong--AND THAT IS OKAY, it is how we learn.

A list does not have to be the authorized source. Just like you have skepticism about how "perfect" the information of a list is, others do too. Some people blindly follow lists, that's up to them. But I don't think we have to assume everyone doesn't even try to understand the game through their experience.

It's okay to be wrong sometimes, especially if we learn when we are wrong. I just think we'll never put out the great resources if we're too afraid to post it because of the 1% inaccuracy that is likely. And we can always explain what is motivating the information we put out (personal preference, seems to work so far, I think this is how it should happen, etc...).

A simple combo list is fine. Nobody should be on your butt about it because it's not absolute max damage factoring character weight, stance, and ring out potential. A throw escape list is a good starting point, it's not the end-all-be-all, but it's a starting point to get the mindgame started for someone learning some of the throws to consider for their opponent.

And yes, the list that Shinryu Returns is proposing is, in my honest and hopefully humble opinion, a good starting point for us to be group-testing the various situations and what works and doesn't work in okizeme. I would rather not wait a whole year to see the different results people have trying something in this aspect, because they're waiting for one of the people to be 100% sure of their approach in this situation and a guide is made. A list is a starting point, it doesn't have to be the ideal encyclopedia.

All this said, Cnul, I do really like your approach to learning and your methods for testing things. They are very thorough, very complete, and I think we have the same ideals. But I am just going to make the case that I think it's perfectly fine to put out a list, people can put that test to the list, and I think better information will come of it.

People do come to the forums for information, we know the information is not always perfect or even close to perfect, but I see us all playtesting and exploring this wonderful game together. And I think even the simple act of making a list helps with that.

A Note on VFDC Culture
BTW, I have been happy with the direction of the culture of VFDC in the past few years. A long time ago, when the forums were very active but more specifically were not sub-categorized (so all posts on one board) it did seem tiring to see the same question being asked all the time and the same answer being retold. Because of this, part of the culture became "Use the F___ing Search Feature" and I didn't really like this part of the VFDC culture because I felt it closed off the natural curiosity that was coming from new players. But I understood why it was annoying. Ultimately, this is why it's awesome that the boards are all split up and sub-categorized at the cost of looking less busy (when it's actually very busy).

There was also an elitism streak of constantly correcting people in a manner that could be interpreted as harsh. Now, when people are testing things and trying to improve, brutal honesty is a good thing. But it was hard on the online culture of trying to get more VF players. Sometimes I felt people that came with the good will of trying to learn and explore the game were being mishandled accidentally and for some they continue to play and practice, just not contribute anymore. For some others, they probably stopped playing (but that's up to them and how much they want to do well in the game). For some, they did grow thick skin and hung in there and still contributed, and got better. That said though, it was a cultural barrier imo.

I don't know when it was though, but I think VFDC's culture has become much more welcoming compared to a few years ago, especially right now with VF5FS coming out. And I'm glad to see this. Even though there are still A LOT of people who are afraid to post here, for fear that they are not 100% accurate. I hope that situation improves...

 

I wanna like every post in this thread. I know this isn't a very contributional post, but I just want to let you guys know you rock. Good questions, good answers. And it answers some suspicions I had about not being able to evade after a standing tech. I'll have to look at these evade-locking options more closely soon. It could be a system-applied property like after Jean's 66P.

 

Sorry for my LLLLAAAATTTE answer Chanchai I was really busy those past days

I like your huge post and i agree 100 % with you to be honest so it was hard to answer something.

Every thing you said i understand that. I know and use Evernote (though i don't fully use it). I love make mistakes. Go in the wrong direction. Some days ago i asked Akai if i can spam the forum with stupid thread. By stupid i was thinking about thing i see and i want to discuss no matter if it's true or not

I agree with you that those days people are afraid to post. I have experiment that on several SF4 forums too. I used to nicely troll people in saying that maybe there is an Urban Legend (Street Legend ) who tells that "if you write on a forum you become a scrub for eternity #curse" when i saw how so many people watch without writing

Now the "true" reason why i said i don't like compil is because i was so speechless to see veterans/confirmed players bash VF5FS.

If veterans people who said they know the game start saying it's suck because of blablablabla, so fastly after the release of the game, how i can believe new players will take the time to understand and explore the game ?

People said :
- they don't like the new throw break system
- they don't like the evade system
- they don't like rising attack system
- they don't like attack beating throw
- they don't like the new mind game
- they don't like the side turns game
- they don't like to see so many safe moves
- Fuzzy guard is so powerful

It's hard to explain but i blame compil list for that.

Someone decide to make a list. Someone else read that and start saying he like or not the system without really knowing if there is more stuff to understand.

To be honest if i care only about what people said, i should buy right now VF4EVO and VF5 vanilla and forget VF5FS because the game is poor according to many people.

But now more i wander on VFDC more i notice new stuff who change the rules of the game. But list stay the same and people still blame the game for the same old thing when it's clearly not true now

I give you just one example.

Someone choose to make a list about break throw. He is legit when he decide to help people. He start explain that since you have 1/3 chance to break a throw you should care at least about the damage of the throw. So he does a list only about the more damaging throw of each character.

Someone read that and think "how it's good, i take note of that, thanks a lot man. GG"

But when they read about Wolf and see that he has several high damaging throw on several directions, they could react like that :

"This game is no fair, look Wolf !!!"
"I'm so salty about SEGA and this new Break Throw, look Wolf !!!"
"Grrrr è____é this game is for scrub, i cannot guess right versus Wolf, Come one VF5 was so much better"

Those reaction are exagerated but i have read some of them and that show that a simple list can make people think they understand the game and lead them to hate the game just after that.

So my concern was more about not letting people bash the game for free in fact . I know it's a selfish concern

PS : Sorry for my english

 

Cnul, thanks for the reply and in all honesty I really like your posts a lot ^_^

Sorry for my late reply though, somehow it wasn't marked as New when I came across it, but I think I know why that happened (skimmed forums on my phone on a very busy day, so some updated threads got quickly put into the "read" section somehow).

I personally don't think your concerns, as you have expressed them, have ever been selfish. On the contrary, they have always been considerate!

Anyways, about people being lazy or taking things out of context, or letting early impressions or limited information become dogma...

My take is, I try to enlighten them, but if they won't take to that--so be it. It is really up to the person and sometimes it is laziness and sometimes it is some frustration that I somehow cannot rectify. For others, the information--even stepping stones towards complete information--is of great benefit and helps all of our understanding of the game ^_^

As an example of someone who has an impression I don't personally agree with, but I just have to let them find things out for themselves... There's a player with "Digimon" in his name and what little interaction I have had with this player, I like him--I think he's a good guy! And I do not have a disrespect for his game either, but he just has a perspective that causes unenjoyment in VF for him whereas it's something most other VF players have learned to deal with and most actually appreciate!

His beef (disagreement) with Virtua Fighter is that you cannot visually see what throw your opponent is going for and escape the throw exactly as it is just based on visually seeing it. This complaint comes from his experience with Tekken where you can see if the throw is a Left-Throw, a Right-Throw, or a Special-Throw and simply on reaction you can escape it.

Now... let's not get into this debate, this is just an example, but my perspective (and I think I can safely assume it is the perspective of most VF players) is that we like the throw system being something you prepare for, can barely react to if it is not a guaranteed throw (you can attack a throw if it is not guaranteed), and feel it is an important aspect to the way Virtua Fighter plays--the fundamentals of the throw system are a great part of the guessing games in VF.

Anyways, after many weeks, I think myself and many others have decided that this is something we have to let go about Digimon. That if the day comes where he comes to accept the VF system for what it is and where it fits in the design of the game--then he will come to that on his own no matter what we try to tell him or convince him otherwise. We just have to let him be, because ultimately he is the one who decides whether he enjoys the game or the mechanics. I think every person trying to defend VF's throw system to him have said all they can say, and the rest is up to him.

I have no disrespect for the man for his views and preferences, and the argument is no longer about facts--it is about preference. And it his honest opinion to have ^_^ And I still like the guy and hope to play VF with him again soon ^____^

Anyways... back to side-turned on knockdown... Again, ShinryuReturns, great topic--Wish I could add more to it right now but I haven't touched this aspect of the game that much

 

I see your point ^^. Still think that maybe one time you will be able to convince him with better arguments

Back to the subject, i was messing around with what MrDAndyJ show in the video and it's look like i was wrong in my interpretation.

It's not a side turned knockdown who lead to a side turned guard.
It's look like there is only 4 situations in the game (thanks to the old wiki on VFDC by the way)

Face Down head toward
Face down feet towards
Face up head toward
Face up feet towards

Side turned knockdown are in reality one of them because even if it's look like your opponent is perpendicular to you he has in reality his head or his feets slightly toward you

In the first example of ExMrDanyJ, Jeffry is face up head slighty toward.

Now via the wiki i learn that those 4 knockdown lead to several situations after and ONLY after a quick rise (fall recovery)

Face up head toward and face down feet toward force your opponent to wake with his back turned to you.

And because he quick rise back turned, he has to switch and that lead to side turned guard. I would love to illustrate this with screenshot but i'm a little lazy today xD

Now what i also learned his with the right timing, you can hit your opponent when he is still back turned and you have a guaranteed damage if you choose a mid attack (launcher, elbow, side kick)

Again those situations are only after a quick rise (fall recovery)

The timing to hit someone back turned with a mid attack look very strict. Maybe one frame ? If you hit later your opponent can guard but in side turned situations

Face up feet towards and face down head toward lead your opponent to wake up in front of you. So watch out, even with a face up feet slightly towards you opponent wake in front.

That was my mistake.
A good example with Jacky and his on counter hit. The opponent looks like he is side turned and perpendicular to you but in fact he is either face up feet slightly towards or face down head slightly toward. So in both case (you just need to change the stance of Jacky), your opponent wake instantly in front.

Those information are also important for the rising attack after a normal wake up and it works the "same" way

Now since a Slightly difference can change a lot of thing i start to understand the purpose of a 8 way run walk who let you slightly move on the side you want. This slightly move can change a lot of thing specially in a situation were its look like your opponent is perpendicular. No need to go for a fancy defensive/offensive move who will show clearly your intention

Scary !!!

 

^ The situations you described do not only apply to quick rise. Been testing this for a while to work out what causes it and the free hits to the back and forcing your opponent to block sideturned work when your opponent tech rolls too.

Still no idea what causes it, after some more playing around with it today it looks if your opponent recovers (quick rise or tech roll) from any knockdown apart from head towards then they have to realign upon recovery, which means there's always a small window where they're considered backturned/sideturned.

Could be well wrong there but that's just a guess as to what i'm seeing, I have quite a few setups now so I might just record a few short vids then throw them in here and let someone with more VF knowledge work it out.

 

Quick rise and tech roll is the same thing for me. It means you choose to wake up the fastest possible when you hit the ground. Sorry for the confusion. Fall recovery let you choose to wake in place or with a roll but it's still a quick rise in both case (for me)

For the rest you said here is a draw i just made who explain those slightly i was talking about

In those both case your opponent wake up in front though he looks like he is perpendicular (quick rise or tech roll)

Jacky is player one so on the left

 

Ahh that makes sense now, still I don't think this just applies to Face up head toward and face down feet toward. Seems to be pretty much any angled knockdown.

 

I'm on this since several hours now lol
Here is my interpretation

Face down head toward (you) means your opponent wake on his knee and look at you. So his back is not expose

Face up feet toward (you) means your opponent wake up on his butt and look at you again (cause his feet are toward you). SO again his back is not expose.

Face up is always on the butt and face down is always on the knee
You look for a situation where your opponent wake up and he cannot look at you